Chameleon and Ultimate Magus

[OblivionSmurf83]

What does everyone think? Can Ultimate Magus advance Chameleon spellcasting levels?

[Cagemarrow]

According to the description of the casting options. I don't think so. It specifically says that it won't qualify you for feats or Prc's so I don't think it will advance them either. Only two ways I know of to advance chameleon. The Weapon of Legacy PRC and the Luck based on from Complete Scoundrel. I don't have my books right now to be more specific than that.

[jeffrie]

According to the description of the casting options. I don't think so. It specifically says that it won't qualify you for feats or Prc's so I don't think it will advance them either. Only two ways I know of to advance chameleon. The Weapon of Legacy PRC and the Luck based on from Complete Scoundrel. I don't have my books right now to be more specific than that.

How do either of those advance Chameleon?

[Phoenix00]

According to the description of the casting options. I don't think so. It specifically says that it won't qualify you for feats or Prc's so I don't think it will advance them either. Only two ways I know of to advance chameleon. The Weapon of Legacy PRC and the Luck based on from Complete Scoundrel. I don't have my books right now to be more specific than that.

How do either of those advance Chameleon?

Because they advance all the class features and not just spellcasting.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Actually, I think you can generally use +1 spellcasting progressions to advance Chameleon casting, as long as you don't use Chameleon to qualify for it. My question was more whether or not Chameleon counted as an Arcane spellcasting class, given that sometimes it's not. Ie assume you've got a build that still meets the Prepared Arcane Spellcasting requirements for UM and has Chameleon in it; can you then shunt the spellcasting progression onto Chameleon?

[X-Codes]

I believe it says somewhere that Chemeleon Spellcasting cannot be advanced by other PrCs, period.

[nightshade]

RoD says you can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. And since Chameleons don't have Spellcasting per se, they are no valid target for PrC's that advance casting.

[CantripN]

That said, you might argue that if you qualify some other way, say by being a Wizard 5 / Chameleon X / Incantatrix, you could advance the Chameleon with Incantatrix.

I don't allow that interpretation in my games, but I've seen it before.

[OblivionSmurf83]

That said, you might argue that if you qualify some other way, say by being a Wizard 5 / Chameleon X / Incantatrix, you could advance the Chameleon with Incantatrix.

I don't allow that interpretation in my games, but I've seen it before.

Yes, that's the same logic used to justify dual 9s for the Chameleon (You get 9th (and 10th) level spells some other way, then add on extra spells to the Chameleon). The real question is, assuming it works, can you use a +1 arcane spellcasting class on the Chameleon, given that it's not always arcane.




To go off onto the tangent that everyone else is using though, you can definitely increase spellcasting using a Chameleon. From RoD, 112:


You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook.


Aptitude Focus's restriction states that:

You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

It's only operation is on qualification for prestige classes. Once you qualify through other means, you can still advance Chameleon spellcasting, since they definitely do get spells. The trick is whether you can advance specific Arcane/Divine spellcasting progressions and, if so, how that works.

Like, let's say you can advance spellcasting, and use a +1 Arcane spellcasting class. Does that class advance the Chameleon's spellcasting generally? Or only the spellcasting for the purpose of the Arcane aptitude focus? I'm looking for rules based arguments, rather than common sense ones (Think of it as a black letter law kind of thing).

[weenog]

That said, you might argue that if you qualify some other way, say by being a Wizard 5 / Chameleon X / Incantatrix, you could advance the Chameleon with Incantatrix.

I don't allow that interpretation in my games, but I've seen it before.

Yes, that's the same logic used to justify dual 9s for the Chameleon (You get 9th (and 10th) level spells some other way, then add on extra spells to the Chameleon). The real question is, assuming it works, can you use a +1 arcane spellcasting class on the Chameleon, given that it's not always arcane.




To go off onto the tangent that everyone else is using though, you can definitely increase spellcasting using a Chameleon. From RoD, 112:


You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook.


Aptitude Focus's restriction states that:

You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

It's only operation is on qualification for prestige classes. Once you qualify through other means, you can still advance Chameleon spellcasting, since they definitely do get spells. The trick is whether you can advance specific Arcane/Divine spellcasting progressions and, if so, how that works.

Like, let's say you can advance spellcasting, and use a +1 Arcane spellcasting class. Does that class advance the Chameleon's spellcasting generally? Or only the spellcasting for the purpose of the Arcane aptitude focus? I'm looking for rules based arguments, rather than common sense ones (Think of it as a black letter law kind of thing).

You don't want to be that literal about it, it only hurts the case you're trying to make, pushing you further away from the answer you want and aren't getting.  Literally, Chameleon does not have a spells or spellcasting class feature at all.  It is never an arcane spellcasting class.  It has Aptitude Focus, and can fake being a spellcaster pretty convincingly with it, but good luck finding something that says it advances the Aptitude Focus class feature.

[nijineko]

if someone wanted to dump casting boosts into chameleon, i'd let them. they do temporarily gain the ability to cast arcane spells. just like when they lose access to anything based off of the chameleon bonus feat when they change the feat, they'd loose the bonuses dumped into chameleon when they didn't have the arcane focus.

but other than what has already been noted, i can't think of any other rules that apply.

however, legacy champion, and that other caster prestige, both advance all class features of another class or prestige, just for the record.