Fighter change

[RobbyPants]

I guess I'm not seeing where we're disagreeing. I said you could make the fighter work in high levels one of three ways:
1) Super powers
2) Gadgets
3) Nix it as a high level concept

Pretty much everything you said goes right along with that.

Looking for a variety of abilities to cover different archetypes is good. That's the problem with the fighter in the first place is that his only real flavor is "mundane fighter guy", which doesn't leave much room for super powers when it comes to willing suspension of disbelief.

Then you're simply not reading enough fiction.

Well, that statement was directed at the Fighter class as it currently exists. The flavor of that class is mundane fighter guy.

Now take, for example, the hulk. The hulk fights gods now and then in the marvel universe, has conquered whole planets when on vacation, and beated the crap out of the supreme sorcerer on his personal realm. And he can't fly or pull spirits out thin air or has a totem of some fuzzy animal. What he can do is:
-Jump extremely high (he once reached the moon that way) or throw giant boulders that knock his oponents out of the skies.
-Break pretty much anything with his bare fists,  including but not limited to magic barriers.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Shrugg off pretty much anything.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Slam the ground to provoke earthquakes.

And that can work pretty well as the super powers approach. So long as you're cool with him teleporting by ripping a whole in space-time with his strength, or jumping to the outer planes, then it can work.

A warrior NPC can't block a fireball. Captain America can block freaking super-novas (it hapened in the comics) with his shield!

...

-Need to go to Apocolopsys that's in another planet. Batman tracks down a teleporter machine and the coordinates with his detective-fu.

These are just examples of option 2 (gadgets). It's a workable approach.

All the rest is more super powers stuff.



So, so far as I can tell, we're in agreement. I think.

[Midnight_v]

Well you're right he does want them to have superpowers, he's just being contrary because well it seems to be his persona.

So you think that mundanes should be flailing, worthless idiots at high levels, Midnight? How can the fighter possibly keep up with the wizard Tier 3 at high levels? What oslecamo described is the justification for mundanes doing things that are worth casters' time.
You're falling into the trap of Fighters Can't Have Nice Things (TM), which dictates that anything normal human can't do is immediately encompassed by magic.
You know how they say sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic? Well, in this case, sufficiently advanced awesomeness martial arts is indistinguishable from magic.
How do you think high-level mundanes should perform

?

Sneer. . . I don't know that I've ever encountered you on the boards directly, so I can see that by my last post I wasn't being clear and that might give you the wrong idea.

  I'm firmly in the "Superpowers Camp" in fact, have you read The Tome series the frank and k books that keep popping up in lots of threads?
I think that melees should work like that.
You will get all kinds of people who look at that and go "too powerful" *whine* and those are the people in the FCHNT(Tm) camp.
 Some of what I was saying is that right NOW in D&D High level melee's (non magical) often ARE flailing idiots, unless of course you're really spun up on your optmization and have access to a decent amount of books.

You know how they say sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic? Well, in this case, sufficiently advanced awesomeness martial arts is indistinguishable from magic

Using your previous barbarian example, you say he should suddenly become a shaman and start pulling spirits out of a hat and floating whitout strings. Except that's not what people expect of a barbarian at all. That's what people expect of a shaman

This is kinda why I made that comment, he's kinda being asshole  there, because:
Flying without strings
and
Jumping to the moon
are ostensibly the same thing. Also, calling the windspirits with a wave of your hand and clapping your hand to cast windwall is the same thing. Except he chooses to play it in such a way thats antogonistic.
So here we are mundane should get superpowers.

Though we shouldn't be calling them superpowers, we should refer to them as what they are: Level Appropriate abilites.
However, there is, as you say, a number of people who have the "nice things argument" against that. They have the "Too anime" against the tome of battle and we know that argument isn't really workable, but a grognard's head explodes everytime someone yells out "Dimond Nightmare Blade".

We also did a long 3.5 project once with the intent to make all the classes tier 3, you know what people complained about the most? They said "So what is this LUNGE power! So what all of a sudden the fighter is the flash or spiderman? Hell no." over on the wizards boards.
Therefore, this is why some people want to nix the fighter as a high level concept period.

I personally think, I should be moving rivers to clean the Augean Stables, by strength of arm, but I find it hard pressed to get people to accept that.
I hope that clears it up better.

At a certain level the Melee Warrior either gets superpowers (my vote); Gadgets (in which case they should have craft: Magic items, via blacksmithing score. Or we can give the Artificer the good bab and be done with it)
 By the way... batman and captain america are terrible examples too because when they encounter high level guys they're NOT fighting them at all. However... boomerang daze abuse works even it D&D. 

[oslecamo]

These are just examples of option 2 (gadgets). It's a workable approach.

All the rest is more super powers stuff.

I believe we have quite diferent definitions of "super powers" then.

From what I see, super kung-fu is not a super power. Super kung-fu is gained by heavy physical training. Superpowers are stuff like magic boons, you being marked by destiny/luck, belonging to a super-race, and the like. They're things the mundane guy can't hope to achieve, just like a commoner with Int 10 can never hope to cast a 9th level spell (at least whitout heavy magic backup). That's what people want out of the mundane warrior, somebody that feels like he worked for his powers, instead of starting to float and summon spirits because he started praying to a totem.

And this matters because when some villain brings super-power desactivating power (like AMF), then super kung-fu still works (being an Ex ability).

[ImperatorK]

Flying without strings
and
Jumping to the moon
are ostensibly the same thing. Also, calling the windspirits with a wave of your hand and clapping your hand to cast windwall is the same thing.

One works in an antimagic field and one not. Or are you saying that they're doing magical things without following magic rules?

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

I remember one issue of Ultimate Fantastic Four where there was an alternative dimension that was full of super-heroes. Basically the skrulls (sp?) where pretending to be a peaceful race and gave earthlings a pill that gave super-powers. In the end they just killed all humans (because the pill was also a poison) but the only human who didn't take the pill, Ben Grim (The Thing) beat the crap out of the skrull king, because the king was weak (he had a special techsuit that gave him powers of nearby super-heroes, and with all the humans dead he was powerless).

[RobbyPants]

These are just examples of option 2 (gadgets). It's a workable approach.

All the rest is more super powers stuff.

I believe we have quite diferent definitions of "super powers" then.

From what I see, super kung-fu is not a super power. Super kung-fu is gained by heavy physical training.

How about Charles Atlas Superpowers*, then? Stuff that's well beyond the realm of what's physically possible, but still with an Ex tag instead of Su or Sp?

I was using the "super powers" term very vaguely, but I'm fine with the Ex variety gained through training. Just so long as they're keeping up with the casters.


*Warning: that will send you to TVTropes.

[oslecamo]

How about Charles Atlas Superpowers*, then? Stuff that's well beyond the realm of what's physically possible, but still with an Ex tag instead of Su or Sp?


I was using the "super powers" term very vaguely, but I'm fine with the Ex variety gained through training. Just so long as they're keeping up with the casters.

Sure. Screw physics and all of that. However make sure to keep the diference. Magic should be able to turn you into a dragon to gain super strenght and breath weapons. Magic however should not be able to turn you into a super kung-fu dudes that can jump-kick dragons into submission after years of hard training.

EDIT: And here's an example of a martial dude duking it out with a giant robot in melee.

Warning: manga!
 

[ImperatorK]

Sure. Screw physics and all of that. However make sure to keep the diference. Magic should be able to turn you into a dragon to gain super strenght and breath weapons. Magic however should not be able to turn you into a super kung-fu dudes that can jump-kick dragons into submission after years of hard training.

Sadly, it does.

[Midnight_v]

Sure. Screw physics and all of that. However make sure to keep the diference. Magic should be able to turn you into a dragon to gain super strenght and breath weapons. Magic however should not be able to turn you into a super kung-fu dudes that can jump-kick dragons into submission after years of hard training.

Sadly, it does.

+1

And this matters because when some villain brings super-power desactivating power (like AMF), then super kung-fu still works (being an Ex ability).

Sigh... that very rarely relavant, but okay sure.
  If the defining difference between flying to the moon and jumping to the moon is you can't do 1 in an antimagic field sure, but your both being nitpicky fucks, at that point, and its stupid. There is no fucking difference except in fluff, and the very rare occasion you get to shine because someone suicides themself by turning off almost all the magic weapons and all...
   Brilliant that a supervillian would do that and not have an answer to super-ninja-fighter-man or whatever but ulitmately sure whatever. Tecnically you are (in a minor sense) correct.

   The point is it really doesn't matter what you call it. All that matters is that ALL the classes get the relevant powers at the relevant levels.

Charles Atlas Superpowers, chi powers, martial source powers whatever... the issue is really options, and fluff.
  I like the Tome of Battle, I like the Tome Fighter, I think the tome Samurai, Barbarian, Knight and Monk, all of which are is able to do it w/out resorting to "magic". 
 However, what do you say to the many people who have an issue with these things?
I suspect if we give non-mages the ability to jump to the moon it will offend people.

Here's an example:

Surprise Lunge
As an immediate action the Fighter may treat his threatened area as 5' farther than usual, and any interrupted action which would then trigger an attack of opportunity does so. The fighter moves 5' such that the creature now triggering this AoO would be within his normal threat range, and then resolves the attack of opportunity. His threatened area then returns to normal

Later we gave him a further expanded threat range but thematically it made sense.

...and iirc that what offended people the most about the "rebalanced fighter" which didn't make any sense. That is what happened though and when you think about the sheer number of people who are unwiling to accept that
bab is supposed to mean something equivalent to full spellcasting . . . its always a problem getting a fix recognized.

I think really while people have vague idea's of what they want a "Melee" character to do, no one can put the bolts down on what.
1. They want it do do "Exactly"
and
2. The best way to represent that.

I find its much easier to fix some than other as well, I think people would have no serious issue with a barbarian that cause earthquakes (the spell); or caused fires, when raging, I don't think they'd like it if we made it ex. . .
One of my dartboard projects is 101 barbarian feats.
I'm actually on board with someone doing that for the fighter, but... reception. I defy you to pull off a fighter that does supernatural things without getting pinged about it.

[ImperatorK]

but your both being nitpicky fucks

You're talking to me? I know that BG doesn't give a fuck about trolling, insulting or vulgar language, but when I see such words, it's hard for me to threat your post with respect and consideration.

[Midnight_v]

but your both being nitpicky fucks

You're talking to me? I know that BG doesn't give a fuck about trolling, insulting or vulgar language, but when I see such words, it's hard for me to threat your post with respect and consideration.

Fair Enough. I guess uhmm...I'll mark you off my respect and conderation list? 
That kind of thing is more pm talk though really.

Moving on:
All this have given me inspiration for a new deliberations thread.

[ImperatorK]

Suit yourself.

[Kethrian]

Wow.   Well, at least we can agree that the high level fighter's new stuff should be EX?  And should still rival at least manoeuvres, if not spells, for their level?

Oh, and here's one thing that a fighter at level 10 can already do, which is already delving into the anime or superpower range: punch holes through walls.  All he needs is the Power Attack feat, and his fist.  Let's say he has 18 str (not unreasonable), and has been imprisoned in a cell with stone walls, with nothing more than his boxer shorts.  Let's say the wall is 1 foot thick.  That gives us a wall with 8 hardness and 180 HP.  The fighter will do 1d3 damage, +4 str, +10 power attack.  Sure, he takes an extra -4 to hit because he's trying to do lethal instead of subdual, but that doesn't really matter, seeing as he's attacking a 10'x10' section of wall.  That means that after reducing damage for hardness, the fighter still does an average of 8 damage per hit.  He just visibly cracked a solid stone wall with one punch, and no special unarmed training.  It will take about 23 hits to break that 10'x10'x1' wall, and his hand will be uninjured.

[ImperatorK]

and his hand will be uninjured.

Hm. That's what I would also say, but how does it look rules-wise? I don't remember anything about hurting yourself by attacking. :/ But... you do provoke an AoO from the wall for attacking unarmed.

[Kethrian]

and his hand will be uninjured.

Hm. That's what I would also say, but how does it look rules-wise? I don't remember anything about hurting yourself by attacking. :/ But... you do provoke an AoO from the wall for attacking unarmed.

 
Oh, sure, the wall will be given the chance for AoOs, but unless someone animates it, I don't think it has a strength score available to start hitting back with...

[ImperatorK]

So... how does the Fighter get hurt?

[Kethrian]

So... how does the Fighter get hurt?

Quite simply, he doesn't.  Unless you wanna make a house rule for it, but I don't see the need.  Oh, or he gets hurt by making too much noise, and the guards come running and beat his ass down....

[Midnight_v]

So... how does the Fighter get hurt?

Quite simply, he doesn't.  Unless you wanna make a house rule for it, but I don't see the need.  Oh, or he gets hurt by making too much noise, and the guards come running and beat his ass down....

Nice. 

[ImperatorK]

So... how does the Fighter get hurt?

Quite simply, he doesn't.  Unless you wanna make a house rule for it, but I don't see the need.  Oh, or he gets hurt by making too much noise, and the guards come running and beat his ass down....

I'm a retard. You wrote "UNinjured" but apparently I'm getting blind because I read it as "injured". Please, forgive me for this blunder. I was thinking that you knew something about a rule for hurting yourself by hitting a hard surface with your bare hand, and I was curious.
Yeah, it's not a "9th level spell" kind of effect, but... still awesome.

[Kethrian]

So... how does the Fighter get hurt?

Quite simply, he doesn't.  Unless you wanna make a house rule for it, but I don't see the need.  Oh, or he gets hurt by making too much noise, and the guards come running and beat his ass down....

I'm a retard. You wrote "UNinjured" but apparently I'm getting blind because I read it as "injured". Please, forgive me for this blunder. I was thinking that you knew something about a rule for hurting yourself by hitting a hard surface with your bare hand, and I was curious.
Yeah, it's not a "9th level spell" kind of effect, but... still awesome.

Ah, np.  If I were to make a houserule for it, I'd have the attacker take whatever damage didn't breach hardness.  So, the fighter would still be uninjured, because he's never going to not do enough damage... unless you forced him to make attack rolls, and on a natural 1, he hurts himself...

That reminds me of when I was running a campaign, and the goliath fighter decided to charge the steel door, because he did more damage that way, and rolled a 1.  Result: he tripped, smashed his face against the door, and crumpled to the ground with a broken nose!  Had he just stood there and swung his large greatsword, I wouldn't have asked him to make an attack rolll, but I saw the potential for self-injury if he screwed up on the charge, and sure enough....

[ImperatorK]

This could work. I'm always for houserules if they're reasonable and don't outright screw the players.