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sir_argenon
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2011, 07:34:39 AM » |
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Spellthief is just so weak and out done that he is the Samurai of spellcasters. So pathetic that noncasters are better than he is. So dumb he was kicked out of the special Olympics for being too retarded. So lame he has his own PBS show. So outdated he uses myspace. So poor hobos throw him money. So popular he hangs out with a broken Gamecube. Even a skunk was like "damn, what stinks?". It's a shame because quite a few people like the concept.
i had no idea spellthief was so bad... |
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Shiki
King Kong
Posts: 853
Mindraped
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 09:00:34 AM » |
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Spellthief is just so weak and out done that he is the Samurai of spellcasters. So pathetic that noncasters are better than he is. So dumb he was kicked out of the special Olympics for being too retarded. So lame he has his own PBS show. So outdated he uses myspace. So poor hobos throw him money. So popular he hangs out with a broken Gamecube. Even a skunk was like "damn, what stinks?". It's a shame because quite a few people like the concept.
i had no idea spellthief was so bad... It sucks so bad (out-of-the-box) that it needs to do like the monk to be really good: use ACF(s) from Dragon Magazine, although there are some good ones for monks in splats out there too; not so much for Spellthieves... Trickster ACF from Dr#353 let it not suck IIRC. Never tried a build with it though. Trickster ACF reference: Level: 1st.
Replaces: -2 skill points per level; Appraise, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Swim, and Tumble are no longer class skills; no Trapfinding; Sneak Attack class feature is fixed at +1d6.
Benefit: Cast spells as a Bard (spells per day/spells known); Caster Level equals to your Spellthief level instead of half of it; you can select spells known from the Bard spell list. |
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X-Codes
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 01:23:46 PM » |
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I'd take a Spellthief over a Dark Moon Disciple Monk any day of the week, and a Wild Monk at levels 14 and over. The Monk needs to take ACFs to not be terrible, the Spellthief is actually playable as-is.
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Shiki
King Kong
Posts: 853
Mindraped
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2011, 01:44:09 PM » |
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Comparing the Spellthief to the monk probably were a bit excessive on my part, but the class ain't that great out-of-the-box.. Playable =/= good, mind you, and I did say for it to be "really good" w/ that ACF cherry-picking, but anyway.
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zook1shoe
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2011, 01:54:18 PM » |
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It's good for a dip
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2011, 03:20:28 PM » |
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A pure spellthief isn't THAT bad and is not even close to being monk bad.
Overall I'd say it's about on par with a rogue, trading skill points and SA for minor spellcasting and the ability to steal spells. Don't forget spellthieves can cast spells from the transmutation, illusion, enchantment, abjuration, and divination schools so that's spells like alter self, polymorph, ray of stupidity, silent image, and greater mirror image.
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Shiki
King Kong
Posts: 853
Mindraped
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2011, 05:15:13 PM » |
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Yeah, a dip can be good, but so can a monk dip.
And yeah too on Spellthief spells, although you get 'em quite late and at crap CL. Still better than not having spells at all though, and much better than monk.
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2011, 08:24:37 PM » |
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Some other nice things about the spellthief is that it qualifies for obtain familiar/improved familiar, mindbender and the mindsight feat, shadowcraft mage, and an elven spellthief can get into abjurant champion without using a feat for a martial weapon.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2011, 10:37:37 PM » |
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For the record, when I said none-caster classes are better than the Spellthief I was in the middle out my rather creative bashing of it. It does have spells which does make it better than (no-PrCs) mundanes. The Monk comment was kind of harsh but really, I do find it an entertaining thought.
Think about it, better Stealth, Energy Drain is better for draining spells, Unarmed Charge is better than full SA to begin with, just PaO, the Monk's three bonus feats for room to snag trapfinding/skills, etc. Any spell based trump card played by the Spellthief is replicated by buying a wand with about 10 charges. Even the I-can-steal-9th-level-spells thing is based on walking over to an Astral Deva, Sneak Attacking, and living long enough to cast it next round. It's TO vs Practical. I smell the nest Monk vs thread...
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2011, 10:48:17 PM » |
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Oh snap, it's on like Donkey Kong
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2011, 11:25:20 PM » |
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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Bauglir
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2011, 11:36:23 PM » |
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If this actually happens I will immediately gain immense respect for all of you, just so that I can immediately lose it again.
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2011, 11:54:46 PM » |
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If this actually happens I will immediately gain immense respect for all of you, just so that I can immediately lose it again.
Can't let your expectations fail so bad it loops around right? |
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2011, 02:01:54 PM » |
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If this actually happens I will immediately gain immense respect for all of you, just so that I can immediately lose it again.
This. I refuse to participate in another Monk vs. thread, especially since Soro's already brought up that partially-charged wands bullshit. |
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2011, 03:16:55 PM » |
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If this actually happens I will immediately gain immense respect for all of you, just so that I can immediately lose it again.
This. I refuse to participate in another Monk vs. thread, especially since Soro's already brought up that partially-charged wands bullshit. Especially when the spellthief can do the UMD thing better and with few resources used |
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Bauglir
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2011, 03:25:16 PM » |
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No. Don't do this, ninjarabbit. Just stop. Don't continue to lend legitimacy to this bullshit. Enough words about this stupidity have been written to fill a poorly-constructed, profanity-laden, and ultimately pointless doctorate thesis, if dialogues were an acceptable format for such. Everyone, seriously, take a step back and realize what else you could be doing with your time. Are you really this bored?
I have never been so ashamed to be part of this forum as I have been when reading the posts in those threads, with the exception of whenever I contributed to one.
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2011, 09:07:15 PM » |
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No. Don't do this, ninjarabbit. Just stop. Don't continue to lend legitimacy to this bullshit. Enough words about this stupidity have been written to fill a poorly-constructed, profanity-laden, and ultimately pointless doctorate thesis, if dialogues were an acceptable format for such. Everyone, seriously, take a step back and realize what else you could be doing with your time. Are you really this bored?
I have never been so ashamed to be part of this forum as I have been when reading the posts in those threads, with the exception of whenever I contributed to one.
Hey I'm only joking around, you can't believe how long I've been wanting to use that image and finally got the right set up for it. I thought Ninja was thinking the same thing up till his last post >.> |
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2011, 09:11:22 PM » |
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Dammit I was ready to rumble
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2011, 09:43:09 PM » |
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Dammit I was ready to rumble
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK! Can you smelllllllllllllllllll.... What? The Monk is cooking! Let's get  |
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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Bigtuna
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 133
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2011, 12:19:40 PM » |
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Spellthief caps at lvl 9... I tried playing a spelltheif from level 9-16 - (i was new to D&D at the time) - but really they are just a bad glasscanon.
A Ranged blaster (wizard or Sorc - with Unseen Seer/Spellwarp sniper) can out damage the spellthief any day, and SURVIVE!
So a Spellthief9/Sorc 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer +3/ Is just better than a Spelltheif 20... (And the build would be even better with higherlevel sorc spells)
(I don't have my books but I assume you could qualify for unseen seer at lvl 11)
The highlevel powers - steal spell-like abilities/steal SU/Steal Spell effect (can't remember the name) isn't auto succes (if sneak-attack) like steal spell, making an ability that's already situational into some some thing less than usefull.
They tried to make a cool class - and it dows have flavor - but it just doesn' work in real play...
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