Question about Master Spelltheif

[Dawnmor]

Alright, my question is in the example of the feat from Complete Scoundrel, it uses Spelltheif 4/Wizard 4, you get spells of the appropriate level for spelltheif and I believe wizard as well.  So my quiestion is the Caster Level, does that mean that I have access to 4th level spells as a 8th level wizard?, along with access to 8th level Spelltheif spells??

[Tr011]

You get the caster level, not the spell progression. So you still only got level 2 spells, but at a CL of 8 instead of 4.

[CantripN]

You get the caster level, not the spell progression. So you still only got level 2 spells, but at a CL of 8 instead of 4.

That said, Spellthief 4 is a freaking idiotic entry into Master Spellthief. 1 or 2, at most, are common.

[JaronK]

Well, remember that the maximum level of spells you can store is still equal to Spellthief Level.  So, you can steal high level spells, but unless you have Spellthief 9 or ST 6 + a major bloodline you're not going to be able to hold them long enough to use them.

Spellthief into Sublime Chord can be fun, though.  I also like Spellthief 6/Earthdreamer 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 with a Major Bloodline.

JaronK

[Dawnmor]

Well, my DFA just died on our sunday game, Horrible, horrible way of going too.  Inside another create *shivers*, anyways, I was considering doing a Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp sniper 4, with Master spellthief.  Sort of trying to do an Arcane archer type.  I know of the prestige class but I find it useless as it doesnt have spell progression.  Ironically I am also an Elf, just to get the free Longbow proficiency to use Hanks bow.

I should mention, the group has a Cleric whos also the trapper aparently, kreen Blender, Bard/sublime chord/Druid.

So the group says Another blaster type would be good, and the best blaster I thought of was a Spelltheif.  But with what was said previously it may not be the best class to choose from as the steal spell stuff wont be very good.

I want to try and deal with rays as much as possible, Ray of enfeeblement, take Twin spell, Split ray, that kinda thing.  While backing it up with my bow.

[rasmuswagner]

By strict interpretation, MS only increases the level cap for individual stolen spells, not the cap for total stolen spell levels. I'd say "it's obviously intended to" increase the total spell levels cap as well, but then I'd have to defend that assertion. I'll just say that the strict reading and the RAI reading provides different results, one of which is playable.

Another issue is caster level stacking. I've seen a lot of builds that stack Spellthief caster level on $otherclass caster level, when a strict reading says Spellthief class level to otherclass caster level.

[JaronK]

I think RAW and RAI are in agreement, personally.  I don't think Master Spellthief was designed to turn Spelltheives into a one level dip class... it just makes multiclassing possible.  As a one level dip it means a sneak attacker can wipe out enemy spells, while if you want to really steal (and keep) spells you need to be at least someone invested in Spellthief levels.

JaronK

[zook1shoe]

I use it for the scary arcane caster level tricks you can get with it

[SorO_Lost]

What book is Master Spelltheif printed in I can't find it anywhere.

Oh hey, speaking of nitpicks. I never understood this so called RAW ruling that Master Spellthief doesn't progress the cast aspect of Steal Spell. If you read Steal Spell you'll see the casting aspect of Steal Spell isn't capped or limited by spell level at all. Perhaps you meant the number of spell levels you can store isn't advanced by this feat? 

And I dunno about RAI on this feat at all. One could say you advance it, after all when you advance a class feature you advance it in it's entirety. Like saying Bone Knight doesn't increase the maximum amount of HD you can Rebuke, you don't simply rule that your parts of an ability are not increased. This is handwaved as it could not mean that, why in the hell could WotC print a feat that in the words of JaronK would make Spellthief a one level dip right? Well, this is Fracking WotC we're talking here. Why is Barbarian 1 level long? Why is Mindbender 1 level long? Why is Samurai -2 levels long? That argument means little given WotC's track run. For another that isn't the only ability a Spellthief has so it is very misleading to claim you obtain everything the Spellthief offers though one feat. For all we know, MS was printed so people would at least look at taking a level in Spellthief for the gishness of it opposed to OPers totally ignoring it.

[JaronK]

What book is Master Spelltheif printed in I can't find it anywhere.

Complete Scoundrel, page 79, right hand side.

Oh hey, speaking of nitpicks. I never understood this so called RAW ruling that Master Spellthief doesn't progress the cast aspect of Steal Spell. If you read Steal Spell you'll see the casting aspect of Steal Spell isn't capped or limited by spell level at all. Perhaps you meant the number of spell levels you can store isn't advanced by this feat? 

From the fourth post in this thread, the one I wrote:  "Well, remember that the maximum level of spells you can store is still equal to Spellthief Level.  So, you can steal high level spells, but unless you have Spellthief 9 or ST 6 + a major bloodline you're not going to be able to hold them long enough to use them."  So, yes, I meant that because that's what I wrote... and you can't cast anything that you can't store.

And I dunno about RAI on this feat at all. One could say you advance it, after all when you advance a class feature you advance it in it's entirety.

The feat doesn't say it advances the class feature.  It says you advance the level of spells you can steal, and your caster level for all arcane spells.  Plus you don't get arcane spell failure in light armor.  That's it.  At no point does it say it advances the class feature.  Perhaps you should read the feat before commenting?

As for why the feat was made, without it you pretty much couldn't multiclass or PrC out at all, or your spell stealing abilities became basically worthless.  With the feat, PrCs become a viable option (Sublime Chord becomes a great one, and a 5 level PrC like Shadowcraft Mage or Earth Dreamer becomes reasonable as well).  You can still make it a one level dip (for the ability to take out an enemy's spells and cast in light armor), but you don't get the main part of the class entirely with one level .  There's also a reason to take a good bit of the class.  In other words, by RAW it's actually a well designed feat that helps fix and otherwise borked class.  The one exception to this is the fact that it combos with Sublime Chord in ways that can be somewhat game breaking if you try (due to the arcane caster level stacking changes).

JaronK

[Jackinthegreen]

Jaron, I believe you missed the snark Soro implied with his bold letters.

Looking at the feat I believe it's an attempt from the designers to help the spellthief out a bit, given its seeming crappiness.

[JaronK]

Hard to tell if it's snark, since in the next paragraph it looks like he hasn't read the feat (he thinks it advances the steal spells class feature, as opposed to just advancing the level of spells you can steal).  Also, this is SorO we're talking about... he regularly argues without actually reading the material.

JaronK

[X-Codes]

He's also, apparently, quite the rouge when it comes to witty commentary.

Is there any way to satisfy the Eldrich Blast +2d6 requirement of Eldrich Theurge while having only a single level of Warlock?

I'm thinking Spellthief 9/Warlock 1/Eldrich Theurge 10 might be something to look into as a build.  Spellthief doesn't have a terrible spell list, afterall...

[snakeman830]

Only with a Chausable of Fell Power, I think.

[SorO_Lost]

He's also, apparently, quite the rouge when it comes to witty commentary.

Is there any way to satisfy the Eldrich Blast +2d6 requirement of Eldrich Theurge while having only a single level of Warlock?

I'm thinking Spellthief 9/Warlock 1/Eldrich Theurge 10 might be something to look into as a build.  Spellthief doesn't have a terrible spell list, afterall...

If items are allowed snake already named the item.

Anyway to summarize my last post. The cast & store traits are not separate abilities (like inspire courage or such), to steal as an 8th level spelltheif is to have an 8th level Steal Spell trait which allows 8 levels of spell storage. JaronK and many others favor an extreme word emphasis on stealing to mean something else other than Steal Spell. I may not have proof it stacks, but by no means does he have any to prove it doesn't. And if you think that feat is poorly worded, read the other one in CC. One of them lets to qualify for Ambush feats but not use them for whatever reason that would serve. >.>

[X-Codes]

I'm in favor of the idea that Master Spellthief also increases the levels worth of spells you can store, but in the event that a DM rules that it doesn't, Spellthief 9 is still a potentially workable parameter for a build.  You get 3d6 SA, 2nd-level arcane spells from a decent list (most of the Wizard's greatest hits), Absorb Spell (assuming a successful save still reduces the effect after you attempt to Absorb it), the ability to steal 3rd-level SLAs (Spellstitching, anyone?), and you still get all the awesomeness of a fully working Steal Spell.  You can certainly do worse.

[SorO_Lost]

I'm in favor of the idea that Master Spellthief also increases the levels worth of spells you can store, but in the event that a DM rules that it doesn't, Spellthief 9 is still a potentially workable parameter for a build.  You get 3d6 SA, 2nd-level arcane spells from a decent list (most of the Wizard's greatest hits), Absorb Spell (assuming a successful save still reduces the effect after you attempt to Absorb it), the ability to steal 3rd-level SLAs (Spellstitching, anyone?), and you still get all the awesomeness of a fully working Steal Spell.  You can certainly do worse.

A workaround for Master Spellthief? You should look into Hellbreaker^FCII, it is the workaround for Spellthief.

As an 8 level dip you get.
HiPS, block telepathy (sensible dm would link mindsight to telepathy), steal 4th level SPs, block an SP use for a number of rounds following that, +2d6 SA, stowaway any any nearby teleport effect, block summoning & calling effects (gate? what gate?), and can steal any Su ability. Matures for stealing Su by level 13 so even fast gain spellcasting PrCs can only get back up to 7th level spellcasting. While the list is pretty lackluster for a Rogueish PrC it does get 6 points to try to maintain a dungeoneer role too.

[X-Codes]

...and no steal spell, and no spellcasting whatsoever.  If you want to be a spellthief-like character, then Hellbreaker is a good PrC.  If you want to use the Master Spellthief feat, the actual Spellthief class is way better.

[SorO_Lost]

...and no steal spell, and no spellcasting whatsoever.  If you want to be a spellthief-like character, then Hellbreaker is a good PrC.  If you want to use the Master Spellthief feat, the actual Spellthief class is way better.

Oh yes, if you want to use the Master Spellthief feat it is better. Man that was great advice, next time I want to improve my Psion with Druid levels I'll be sure to ask you.

Anyway, if you are a caster wanting to drain spell slots (the effect of no-stack MS), negative energy already does that for you and is so easily obtained you won't have to cast Polymorph before draining if you want to remain alive, or use a feat slot, or caster level, in order to do so. Optionally you can use ability damage to reduce bonus spell slots as well. You can even mimic Steal Spell effect on a pure caster with one of the Dispel spells Contingencied to cast when you attack with a dagger if you wanted. And speaking of energy drain, the Hellbreaker can pick it up too (and beat a spelltheif into helpless-20th-level-steal-spell-source in a can too) so yeah...

Spellthief is just so weak and out done that he is the Samurai of spellcasters. So pathetic that noncasters are better than he is. So dumb he was kicked out of the special Olympics for being too retarded. So lame he has his own PBS show. So outdated he uses myspace. So poor hobos throw him money. So popular he hangs out with a broken Gamecube. Even a skunk was like "damn, what stinks?". It's a shame because quite a few people like the concept.

[ninjarabbit]

If nothing else the master spellthief feat is a super practiced spellcaster for pure spellthiefs.