Need help with 5th wheel. (Could even be a monk)

[Lo77o]

I will be running a campaign soon with 4 experienced DnD players, and 1 rather new player.

The campaign is set in Faerun, and the start level is 14.

So far the 4 players has made or is in the progress of making:

Archivist / Dweomerkeeper
Artificer (Crafting focused)
Conjurer / Malconvoker
Transmuter / Incantatrix (BFC / GOD)

So the group is all set for pure power and versatility.

So i suggested the "new" player could try out a Druid, but he replied "I would rather not play anything with spellcasting".

I had a talk with the rest of the group, and they are all ok with a "Martial" character joining the group, and they are all looking a bit forward to it, since they want to try and see what a "Martial" character can do, if he is fully backed up.

The thing is, its not that often i make "Martial" characters, so was hoping i could get some suggestions.

What would be fun/easy/different to play if you had those 4 chars to back you up with magic items / buffs / summoned flanking partners / etc?

[PhaedrusXY]

Show your newbie this video, and ask him if he really wants to be the BMX bandit in a party with 4 Angel Summoners?  

Maybe let him be a gestalt character with a strong race on one side? He's still going to fall far behind the rest, but if built well he can perhaps contribute something useful most of the time...

[Lo77o]

Show your newbie this video, and ask him if he really wants to be the BMX bandit in a party with 4 Angel Summoners? 

Actually already did And he is adamant that he wants to play a non-caster.

For the sake of this thread, lets just assume that i wont convince him to play a caster.

[Sinfire Titan]

Warblade? Crusader? Both of them could make excellent 5th members, and it isn't like you guys couldn't buff him into obscenity (and since he'd be a Martial Adept, he'd be a very good target for buffs).

[PhaedrusXY]

Warblade? Crusader? Both of them could make excellent 5th members, and it isn't like you guys couldn't buff him into obscenity (and since he'd be a Martial Adept, he'd be a very good target for buffs).

Let him be a gestalt warblade and/or crusader on one side, and a powerful lycanthrope, outsider, or other race on the other, I say. 

[Lo77o]

I was thinking about letting him play a CR 14 dragon, and then give him the archetype that looses spells but gains maneuvers.

[Rebel7284]

Hmr, no manifesting either? Try Psychic Warrior.  With just a few martial powers (expansion!) he can contribute greatly.

Some races/templates to consider:
Half Minotaur
Feral
Goliath Barb with mountain rage.
Incarnate Construct Warforged (LA -2) + Templates
Mineral Warrior
Pixie

Some role/class ideas:
Shadowpouncing: Can be done using EX abilities from Swordsage.
Charging: Pretty much the easiest to pull off, especially with flight/dive.
Ubermount: Ranger/Pladin stacking gets very little casting.
Battlefield Control: Attack of Opportunity build with Colossal Size.  Can be combined with charging.


EDIT:
Alternatively, with so many casters, what about a save debuffing character.

Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard/Unseelie Fey/Fear Optimization.  Give like -20 to saves to enemies near you.

[PhaedrusXY]

I was thinking about letting him play a CR 14 dragon, and then give him the archetype that looses spells but gains maneuvers.

Hmm... hey, what about a Tome martial class? Those are supposed to be balanced around the wizard tier. It would add a bit of complexity for him learning the system, but still a lot less than a spellcaster. Plus, it would let your group become familiarized with them. See here for some links.

[JaronK]

Try the Bulldozer from here:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2 .  You get to go crazy hulk smashy on everyone, and it's reasonably strong.  Of course, combat is all it does, but it's still fun.  The Smiteadin could also work.

JaronK

[E-mail]

Let him gestalt rouge//fighter, and let him have an above average race like DLCS minotaur, water orc or human, and let him have 3 points for PB. That should give him the tricks he need to do well in combat, and to be able to contribute meaningfully to just about any situation that doesn't involve the summoning of angels (Or devils, or elementals, or whatever).

Whatever you do, don't push him into ToB or anything else in the pseudo-spell department. If he wants to do something that IS mundane and feels like it too, you can hardly do better than rogue//fighter.

[Mixster]

Give him 3 exalted feats and 3 LA for free. He's a Half-Minotaur Saint.
He is either a (spell-less) Bard/Warblade/Crusader with Song of the White raven and a bunch of feats that add extra damage to his weapons. Allow him to take just one feat to get the entire TWF line when appropriate, and he can be using two weapons to kill with if he wants.
Or he is a Warblade//Factotum; Since he will still have a hard time competing, he gets Font of Inspiration as a Bonus feat on every level where he gets a feat. In the end, he will be able to do a lot in the party. But still be horribly behind the other guys.

Alternatively he could be a shapechanger? Divine Minion 1(bought off or ignored)/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 4/Natures Warrior 5/Warblade 1. Is pretty solid. If you allow him to gestalt, you could do something like: Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 4/Natures Warrior 5/??1 //Warblade 12/Factotum 8. Which would be pretty solid, even in a party such as this.

It does depend on the level though, in low levels, I fear that the Divine Minion/Master of Many Forms cheese might actually be a bit too good, at second level you can get pretty darned powerful by changin into mobs with close to 30 Strength, it does have the cool thing of being NAD (that is Not ability dependant), since you don't need any ability score but CON (or Int if you are a faeries mysteries initiate).

[Jackinthegreen]

Try Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/ Frenzied Berserker 8+ and be Human.

Using the Lion Spirit Totem variant from Comp Champ so he gains Pounce instead of fast movement.
Feats would go:
1st: Destructive Rage
Human: Intimidating Rage
3rd: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Cleave
Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Open
12th: Open

Give him a big 2h weapon for the FB's Improved Power Attack 3x damage bonus and he'll be pouncing on everything and using his AC instead of BAB for his Power Attack.  Once he gets up to FB 10 his Supreme PA is doing 4x damage using a 2h weapon.

If you want an optimized version of that there's Soro's build further down the page at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12842.20;num_replies=49

[brujon]

Has he heard about Incarnum? It's not spellcasting, and he could go Psycarnum with Monk/Psychic Warrior/Totemist with Tashalatora and Monastic Training and go to town... He can pounce, fly, read magic, gain immunity to a whole lot of things, grow bigger or smaller, breathe a lot of things, petrify stuff... You could also let him play a nice race like Thri-Keen or something with multiple limbs for free. Then he would be a powerhouse in combat, saving resources for the party mages to resolve the more complicated encounters. He'd also be useful in other departments, with multiple knowledge skills, ways of getting around in dead magic or antimagic zones, and almost being independent of equipment(while still benefitting greatly from it.) If it's still too weak, he could gestalt rogue on the side to handle the skillmonkeyness, too.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Binder is not a "caster" but is still T2 at that point in the game.

Or gestalt
Divine Minion, (wildshape)ranger, MoMF // DFA
firebreathing critters!

If he insists on going monk 14(or similar) and dies, just give him the ghost template, that should be interesting...

EDIT: if you don't want him gestalt, you could always do factotum without casting but add soul binding or wildshape or something instead...
Or diplomancer

[veekie]

I was thinking about letting him play a CR 14 dragon, and then give him the archetype that looses spells but gains maneuvers.

Kung Fu Dragon. I approve.

[Rejakor]

Second Tome classes.  He'll be mashing faces, while the rest of the party paves the way for him to mash more faces.  Plus, they're really easy to use.

Other than that, Crusader (don't over-emphasize the 'belief' fluff.. he can be a non-devout crusader if he wants) with bonus feats of a fighter and max HD, with a gentleman's agreement from the party to buff first, BFC second, and redundantify the melee never, could work.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I agree with crusader. He's got not-so-much maneuvers/level, compared to the other classes and it's a fun and easy class.

[Unbeliever]

Crusaders are always fun. Pretty easy to play, too.  And, you can go lots of different directions -- I've grown tired of the lockdown one and think that a solid damage-dealing plus party support one is pretty easy to pull off.

@Tome Classes
I'm occasionally tempted by them, but I really worry about dropping them into a "normal" game.  Does it not throw game balance off?  It's also worth noting that we don't go quite as crazy as Frank and K assume spellcasters do, if memory serves. 

[KellKheraptis]

Totemist/Barbarian/Totem Rager.  Tier 3 and buffed to the 9's, and works just fine even if the casters get hosed.  Props to Sinfire Titan for showing me the wonder that is Incarnum (which has been integrated into my ubercaster).  Also, if he doesn't even want to use that, there's always the Revenant Berserker build, which gets 1.5 or 2x Str to damage with a Valenar double scimitar, and then minimum x4 or x5 damage with it when power attacking.  Add in Combat Brute to keep swinging after the charge, and with a high enough jump mod, you can be battle jump charging into bruting until no one is left standing.  With all those casters, it should be easy enough to keep Psycho Sid from butchering the party after every enemy has been reduced to a pile of gory paste.

[Rejakor]

Complex builds are confusing for new players.  Wanting to play melee is a request for simplicity of crunch.  So you want something simple that isn't boring and can keep up.  Incarnate Totem Rager or Frenzied paste-maker do do a lot of damage.  But how they work isn't simple, and they can be boring for a new player because the player doesn't have many choices in combat.  Whereas a crusader does.



I've run a couple of games with Tome classes.  None of the casters used any of the stuff Frank and K talk about.  It was still pretty much balanced.  Casters felt the melee overshadowed them in combat, but they overshadowed the melee in utility.  They were all pretty cohesive groups, so that helped.  For the first time, it kind of fell into a 'the fighter is there in case of a Fight, and the wizard is there in case of Strange Elven Runes or a chasm', which is always how I imagined DnD to go.  At higher levels, casters easily keep up in combat with Tome melee classes, even without any kind of optimization.