Top 10 Arcane Persistable Spells by Level (For Future Handbook)

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Greater Resistance gives a +3 to all saves at, IIRC, CL 5, it just takes a higher-level slot.  At ECL 11, you get a +6 resistance bonus from Superior Resistance.  Again IIRC, these both last 24 hours already, no need to persist them at all.  So there's a 2-level window that Nightshield *might* be worth persisting, but there's still a probably better solution out there.

  I think I removed Nightshield.  Excellent points right there I totally forgot about the Resistance Spells and why Every Wizard always has them, thanks.

By the time you can persist Master's Touch, either normally or with some flavor of cheese, that 1st-level slot will better used for something else.  Yes, even better than an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for a day.

I'm not sure I agree, certain classes like Incantarix and SpellDancer Especially start to be able to hit their stride in persisting tons of spells.  And often it can be cheaper to persist a spell than spend a feat.

Improvisation discharges.  In fact, the reason the spell is strong is because you can use it to apply huge bonuses to your rolls for a few rounds as needed, and the "drawback" of the overall limit on how big of a bonus you can apply becomes meaningless as the combat should be decided once you've used up all the bonuses.

Right, but many of its features ala bonuses to saves generally are unavailable if you get ganked, by persisting it, you gain the ability to gain a big bonus to initiative if you aren't the one who initiates it or a bonus to a perception skill to be better able to act in a suprise round.  The spell Does not discharge, first since it mentions the "Discharge" word associated with spells that discharge and secondly for more evidence the spell actually never ends until the duration is up even if you use up all the luck pool.

Mirror Image ends once you run out of images, and you run out of images after two Magic Missile spells.

Yes, and that's two actions your enemy wasted not hitting you and you gained an action by not having to cast or quicken Mirror Image during the battle.

In spite of it being uncapped, it's a tiny bonus, and there's no attack bonus (which I believe matters a lot more).

Vital Strike is a trap, not only because Sneak Attack is a horrible mechanic to deal damage with, but because it negates anything useful you might actually be able to pull off with your sneak attacks (like Crippling Strike or certain Ambush feats).

  I'll reconsider Ferocity of Sanguine rage to see if there's a better choice?  Any suggestions?  Yea Vital Strike isn't as nice as we'd like, but the person casting this spell likely just wants the bonus damage they've acquired through Hunter's Eye or Unseen Seer to be consistent all the time and they're likely not spending feats on Sneak Attack Improvers.

Even short-range spells out-range the aura.  If they're somehow inside of it, then they can just move and they're safe.

True there is a limitation in 40 ft range, this can be helped with a Metamagic Rod of Enlarge spell for up to 80 feet.  Know too, that in my experience most battles occur within a short distance and a spellcaster is unlikely to know that they are within the aura of that spell and even if they did know they might not be able to escape it and even if they did, they would again have to spend actions to get outside of that range, another point for you.

Eye of the Beholder has a chance to be awesome, but a far greater chance to be absolutely terrible.  The spell's effect itself is just plain pathetic.

  I agree, it could be better.  It's current effects lend it to being cast as an off-day spell or sharing the spell with your familiar so your familiar can do coolish things.

If you're using this list, then chances are you're a Wizard.  If you're a Wizard, then the ability to act like a Warlock is not a terribly useful trick.  The +2 damage bonus is pathetic, even compared to the weak damage output of the spell.

Having an all-day ability to do damage is a nice feature, especially when it does more damage than a Warlock (10d8 for CL20) and you can add metamagic feats on top of it (Admixture it, Empower it, etc.) and the metamagic feats you add to it are reusable again and again (Since they apply to the same spell which is repeatedly used. 

The ability to do a completely meaningless amount of damage as a free action doesn't count as improving your action economy.

I don't agree that it's completely meaningless, you gain 2 5d6 lightning bolts, these can be admixtured, empowered, etc. like before, heck put Fell Drain on it too and reduce your enemy's ability to save vs. your other stuff.  You damage enemies which makes them die earlier, you damage spellcasters which hinder their ability to cast spells, let's you pierce illusions by attacking spaces and walls to see if they exist, and all sorts of useful effects by being able to scour terrain, open spaces, and the like.

Invoke Magic lets you cast one spell into an anti-magic field.  Like a lot of the others you brought up, it discharges.  Unlike some of the others, though, this spell is already a swift action, so you can hardly claim that you're saving on action economy with this one.

Yes, it is for one spell, but you gain an ability that can save your butt from total annhilation.  If you get ganked by teleporting Meleers surrounded by an antimagic field, you're dead, unable to use spells, even the tinfoil hat trick might not work since a martial initiator can easily break through the hardness of stone, let alone a thin substance and all of a sudden, you're in trouble again.  And no, it doesn't *discharge*, spells that *discharge* say that they *discharge*.  This spell lacks that keyword.

Foresight is a pathetic effect for a 9th-level spell, even if it's not persistent.  If you really want to cast it, though, then you can get by with just extending it, it already lasts 10 min/level.  So, with a CL of 18, it lasts 6 hours extended.

Foresight is what makes the difference between life or death against other spellcasters.  I wish you were around during some of the initial conversations when Celerity first came out.  The only way to win a Celerity War is to Win Initiative and you can't win initiative if you're surprised and Foresight protects you from surprise.  You don't need it for 6 hours, you need it 24/7 all the time!  You can be ganked by anyone at almost any time, and Foresight is the quintessential protection that you NEED to have!

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Having a "top ten" list sounds like a nice gimmick, but if there aren't 10 spells that are better than absolutely terribad in a given level, then don't feel compelled to go to ten just for the gimmick.

The top 10 lists come from a Suggestion from PlzBreakmyCampaign.  I'm very willing to look at the choices at the list and thanks for your feedback.

[SorO_Lost]

Psst, don't remove spells from the list, toss them in a spoiler at the bottom. Prepping for an Arcane Swordsage (probably) soon.

[BeholderSlayer]

Any spell that ends prematurely after you decide to use it for some purpose is a spell that is discharged. Stop arguing that the spell must use the word "discharged," it makes you look like a complete and utter idiot. Moment of Prescience, Battlemagic Perception, etc. all of these are discharged spells.

Also, Foresight is crap. Use Shapechange instead.

Silly spells that allow you to get piddly amounts of damage and/or use a weapon are wastes of spells. Don't ever include them in a top ten list, mostly because melee sucks ass and a wizard shouldn't be wasting his time doing it.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Any spell that ends prematurely after you decide to use it for some purpose is a spell that is discharged.

Those are your words, not the rules or their examples.  For instance: the PHB Says:

Discharge: Occasionally a spell lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged.  For instance, magic mouth waits until triggered, and the spell ends once the mouth has said its message.

What's the deal here, it doesn't say ends prematurely it doesn't even say ends, it just says until triggered or discharged, what does the example of Magic Mouth say?

Duration:    Permanent until discharged

That's right, the spell tells us exactly if it's discharged or not.  If it doesn't say discharged, there's no example or precedent to say that is discharged.

Also, Foresight is crap. Use Shapechange instead.

No it's not; it's the tool of successful paranoid casters everywhere.  Perhaps we need to make a new thread on high level tactics and why it's so vital.  They're both on the list.

[BeholderSlayer]

Any spell that ends prematurely after you decide to use it for some purpose is a spell that is discharged.

Those are your words, not the rules or their examples.  For instance: the PHB Says:

Discharge: Occasionally a spell lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged.  For instance, magic mouth waits until triggered, and the spell ends once the mouth has said its message.

What's the deal here, it doesn't say ends prematurely it doesn't even say ends, it just says until triggered or discharged, what does the example of Magic Mouth say?

It specifically says "the spell ends." Fail.

Duration:    Permanent until discharged

That's right, the spell tells us exactly if it's discharged or not.  If it doesn't say discharged, there's no example or precedent to say that is discharged.

A spell does not need to use the word "discharged." It need only meet the definition of discharged. Please stop pretending that meeting the definition of a word does not satisfy meeting the requirements of the word itself. This is exactly what definitions are for. When a spell lasts for a duration until triggered or discharged (i.e. both Battlemagic Perception or MoP) then it satisfies the definition of "discharged" and hence are spells that are discharged. It's really simple, fundamental stuff here.

Also, Foresight is crap. Use Shapechange instead.

No it's not; it's the tool of successful paranoid casters everywhere.  Perhaps we need to make a new thread on high level tactics and why it's so vital.  They're both on the list.

No. It is crap. Perhaps you need to learn how to use high level tactics before saying something stupid like "Foresight is useful." Congratulations, you just spent a 9th level slot for an effect granted by a 5th level spell. Instead, you could just use Shapechange and automatically go in every surprise round, ever, instead of wasting a spell slot on a piece of crap effect that you could do 8 levels ago.

Just because people on forums full of idiots like GitP wank over a spell like Foresight doesn't make it useful.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

It specifically says "the spell ends." Fail.

The spell ends because it's been discharged and the example is trying to better explain the effect of magic mouth.  The example itself does not say what discharged means, the first sentence does:

Discharge: Occasionally a spell lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged

That's the definition.

A spell does not need to use the word "discharged." It need only meet the definition of discharged. Please stop pretending that meeting the definition of a word does not satisfy meeting the requirements of the word itself. This is exactly what definitions are for. When a spell lasts for a duration until triggered or discharged (i.e. both Battlemagic Perception or MoP) then it satisfies the definition of "discharged" and hence are spells that are discharged. It's really simple, fundamental stuff here.

  I know that's your RAI, but that's not what the PHB says, the PHB says that a Discharge spell is a spell that lasts for a set duration until triggered or discharged, the only example we have is a spell that says it's discharged.  That's it seriously.  There's no greater encompassing definition than that.  A spell without the words "triggered" or "discharaged" is outside of the definition of a Discharge spell. 

No. It is crap. Perhaps you need to learn how to use high level tactics before saying something stupid like "Foresight is useful." Congratulations, you just spent a 9th level slot for an effect granted by a 5th level spell. Instead, you could just use Shapechange and automatically go in every surprise round, ever, instead of wasting a spell slot on a piece of crap effect that you could do 8 levels ago.

Just because people on forums full of idiots like GitP wank over a spell like Foresight doesn't make it useful.

  What 5th level spell are you referring to?  What forms can Shapechange change into that grant immunity to surprise?

[BeholderSlayer]

It specifically says "the spell ends." Fail.

The spell ends because it's been discharged and the example is trying to better explain the effect of magic mouth.  The example itself does not say what discharged means, the first sentence does:

Discharge: Occasionally a spell lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged

That's the definition.

Irrelevant. Then we go look at the definitions of the words "discharged" and "triggered" in a freakin' dictionary. It doesn't matter whether the spell uses those words or not, all that matters is that the spell satisfies the definitions.

A spell does not need to use the word "discharged." It need only meet the definition of discharged. Please stop pretending that meeting the definition of a word does not satisfy meeting the requirements of the word itself. This is exactly what definitions are for. When a spell lasts for a duration until triggered or discharged (i.e. both Battlemagic Perception or MoP) then it satisfies the definition of "discharged" and hence are spells that are discharged. It's really simple, fundamental stuff here.

  I know that's your RAI, but that's not what the PHB says, the PHB says that a Discharge spell is a spell that lasts for a set duration until triggered or discharged, the only example we have is a spell that says it's discharged.  That's it seriously.  There's no greater encompassing definition than that.  A spell without the words "triggered" or "discharaged" is outside of the definition of a Discharge spell. 

Wrong. See above. Go look in a damn dictionary.

No. It is crap. Perhaps you need to learn how to use high level tactics before saying something stupid like "Foresight is useful." Congratulations, you just spent a 9th level slot for an effect granted by a 5th level spell. Instead, you could just use Shapechange and automatically go in every surprise round, ever, instead of wasting a spell slot on a piece of crap effect that you could do 8 levels ago.

Just because people on forums full of idiots like GitP wank over a spell like Foresight doesn't make it useful.

  What 5th level spell are you referring to?  What forms can Shapechange change into that grant immunity to surprise?

Contact Other Plane and Dire Tortoise.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Irrelevant. Then we go look at the definitions of the words "discharged" and "triggered" in a freakin' dictionary. It doesn't matter whether the spell uses those words or not, all that matters is that the spell satisfies the definitions.

The definition of Discharged is dependent on the definition and example of Discharge spells in the book, not on an outside source, again from the limited information given to us within the rules text, to say anything is a discharge spell other than one that contains the words discharged or triggered is going outside the definition and into RAI territory.

Contact Other Plane and Dire Tortoise.

How does Contact other plane grant immunity to suprise?  I'm looking at Dire Tortoise:

Lightning Strike (Ex): A dire tortoise can lash out very rapidly.  On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed.  A creature that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed during this round.

So Dire Tortoises seem to always get a surprise round, that's good.  Again, they don't seem to have hands and voice for readily available spellcasting and even if they do, there are other forms I'm sure a spellcaster would rather utilize than a tortoise all the time, and Foresight allows the character to obtain the very lifesaving ability to act in surprise rounds while utilizing other forms.

[zugschef]

arguing that moment of prescience and consorts are not a discharge spell is really bizarre; at least from my point of view.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

arguing that moment of prescience is not a discharge spell is really bizarre; at least from my point of view.

In none of my statements have I ever said that Moment of Prescience does not discharge.  By RAW it does not work with Persistent Spell.  However, other spells with similar effects are not discharged and are technically viable, hence why I said earlier that Wotc is inconsistent.  Secondly allowing it to work with Persistent spell is not overpowering compared to the other uses of legitimate spells is why I keep it on the list.

That is an entirely different matter from the conversation with BeholderSlayer, because the spells he mentioned do not have the discharged or triggered keyword and claiming that they're discharged is outside of the rules text and examples.

[Hitoshura]

I miss Mystic Shield, from Anauroch: Empire of Shade. It gives you immunity to all spells and spell-like abilities of 6th level or lower and also negates the enhancement bonuses and special properties of magic weapons... Combine it with Ghostform to become UNTOUCHABLE...

[BeholderSlayer]

COP makes a paranoid wizard know everything in advance. They don't care about Foresight because they don't have to worry about using it in the first place. They are already aware of threats to their person a week in advance, rather than only a few seconds.

You may change shape as a free action, I don't see why you think you would stay as a tortoise once you already have gotten what you care about.

Claiming that the words "discharge" or "trigger" must be present is a form of ignoring the meaning of the words. Words have meaning, whether you want them to or not. They need not be defined within the context of the game, otherwise none of the rules could mean anything without definitions within the books. That is stupid. By your reading, the authors could have chosen the words "rabbit" and "tennis." It would not matter what the meaning of the words themselves. You are willfully and blindly ignoring thy words have intrinsic meaning.

[zugschef]

btw, i'd rather make clever use out of contingency than waste a 9th level slot on foresight...

[X-Codes]

btw, i'd rather make clever use out of contingency than waste a 9th level slot on foresight...

This.  CoP and Contingency are what make Foresight meaningless for a paranoid wizard.  If you don't want to use or can't use these, then there's still the Craft Contingent Spell feat and the Divine Oracle PrC that makes you immune to surprise as a non-dispellable, constant effect.

Also, I'm not saying that these spells Discharge and, therefore, aren't legal to Persist, I'm saying that their effects are terminated by the spell itself, and the duration boost of Persistent Spell is ultimately meaningless because of it.  Yes, a Persistent Mirror Image saves you one action in combat.  A decent Wizard smacks you with a quickened Magic Missile or Chain Missiles to kill your images, and then casts the spell that will actually kill you.  Congrats, you've invested limited daily resources persisting a spell that really shouldn't have been persisted in the first place.  Greater Mirror Image at least has the chance of surviving the fight, and will be back to full strength before fighting the next one, but casting it as an Immediate Action makes it less appealing to me as a Persisting option.

[zugschef]

btw, what about hunter's eye?

[kremti]

btw, what about hunter's eye?

Not Arcane, I reckon.  There will be a Divine version for this I think.

-K

[zugschef]

btw, what about hunter's eye?

Not Arcane, I reckon.  There will be a Divine version for this I think.

unseen seers can grab it.

[Shiki]

btw, what about hunter's eye?

Not Arcane, I reckon.  There will be a Divine version for this I think.

unseen seers can grab it.

For simplicity's sake, lets not get into this type of suggestions. Wyrm Wizard et all... I'll just leave this here.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

I miss Mystic Shield, from Anauroch: Empire of Shade. It gives you immunity to all spells and spell-like abilities of 6th level or lower and also negates the enhancement bonuses and special properties of magic weapons... Combine it with Ghostform to become UNTOUCHABLE...

Mystic Shield is a touch spell unfortunately.  I will check on the other spells in Anauroch, crazy how many new spells in an adventure are published.  Totally neglected those earlier.

I've added Thunderlance and replaced watchful ancestors.  As far as defensive spells go, it's more profitable to become an Ooze since they're immune to sneak attacks and critical hits to begin with.  I've added Adoration of the Frightful because it has good combo potential.