Help with low-power, low-magic world.

[Kajhera]

Also, a couple of you folk may be overreacting a bit to this DM. Sometimes people like to play in a bit different games, and he's doing his best to make this particular experiment work. Getting low-magic - or greatly varying amounts of wealth - right is something everyone figures out differently, because it's not normal play. He doesn't sound like a horrible person and he's willing to take on the work of being a DM for his group; so I think he deserves a measure of courtesy, and an assumption of good faith from those of us who are offering advice to his player.

[Endarire]

What about being a middle-aged Human Druid?  Your stat bumps every 4 levels will keep you casting level-appropriate spells until spell level 7, and you can use metamagic feats to fill those higher level slots.

[SneeR]

Well, obviously avoid monk like the pague. I played a monk once with 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 10 and was so far below everyone else at LEVEL 1 that I would never advise such a thing. Monks are so stat dependent.

Does the DM choose what spells the druid can cast? Why not go cleric? Domain powers, guarenteed spells known from domains, medium HD and BAB, and spells that don't depend on WIS can really pull the class ahead even from early levels... Go for cloistered cleric if you think that maxed skills and twice the bardic lore will make for victory.

[jeffrie]

Why are you using cows to pull your chariots? Use oxen. They're 5 more gold, but they are also meant to work, not to produce milk and meat, and thus a 'used' oxen shouldn't particularly depreciate.

Now that's thinkin'.

Has anybody mentioned Duskblade  PHb2? In a low magic game Duskblade might be best of both worlds. I'm sure the DM would give awesome spells and you'd be full bab, 8hd.
   It has fluff that goes with this world also, i think. Duskblade is an elven discipline from long ago (so i hear), and even though there aren't really a lot of elves in Italy, you might meet some in the wild lands beyond.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Are you limited in the number of feats you can train in?
If not I would attempt a new feat every single round, whether in combat or not. 
In an empty room? Attempt whirlwind attack on the chairs!
See a random NPC? Attempt leadership!
Have time between quests? Attempt some archery/charging feats against a wall!
Take damage? Attempt toughness!
even the crappy +2 to a skill feats, attempt the feat every time you use that skill.

Add tome of magic as your one book and attempt the bind vestige feat, and improved bind vestige...

Also if you go the animal trainer route, you can dip wizard to sell the spellbook if the herd becomes too thin...

+1 rouge at first level
+1 cleric dip (there is even a guide for that)

[Wilb]

Well, too much answers for me to adress individually, but I'll try to cover them all.
   We are limited to humans, old enough just to be adults, second or third sons of nobles, given a "modest" amount of gold to leave our lands, to avoid conflicts with the firstborns, the legitimate heirs of the lands and fortune.
   I'll use oxen to pull the mobile redoubt, as advised, considering that they're considered work animals, to avoid the strange clause imposed by the DM. I believe we will be able to train with dummies and between ourselves, but only while supervised by a teacher (some having schools near Florence), one of our starting objectives being to find some famous people and train under them, using our noble heritage and contacts to do so for free (at least that's what I could understand, maybe our parents took some levels in Dragonlance Noble?).
   I heard from the paladin player that we will probably be able to retrain our characters at lvl 10 (we start at lvl 1), so classes like duskblade (which lack higher spell levels) will probably be available at the time.
   Only one spell from the clerics' domains will be auto-learnt (but all the granted stuff is in), if there is a way to get only one domain, maybe in some obscure part of the SRD, then the domain spell would be a guarantee, if I manage to crack his skull.
   The number of feats may be increased, but only in cases of heavy training (), luck and fate (such as trying to pull two weapon fighting without the feats or jumping from a higher ground to attack and managing a crit) or supernatural interpretation (such as pulling an absurd IRL bluff that sounds convincing AND rolling enough for it to work within the rules would grant me the Persuasive feat next level...) but to the limit of 3 extra feats ever, and they're nor retrainable, so I prefer to not count on such situational bonuses.
   I spoke to the paladin player, and he assured that we and the ranger player will pool resources together if there's sound proof of a good investment. So, now I have 30K gold to spend in equipment, vehicles, goods, animals and maybe a stronghold, no matter how small.
   The DM knows what he is doing (at least I hope) because he usually plays quite the optimised GOD im my games, as has done so for years, always laughing at the shattered pile of infected glass that is 3.5's "balanced" spell rules (though it is still the best in my opinion).
   Sorry if there was any point I did not adress, be sure that it is not disrespect of any kind, as I feel honored to have you guys help this old lurker so much.

Thank you for your time and help.

[Kajhera]

Complete Champion has an option to trade a Cleric domain for a corresponding Devotion feat, but it may be considered an ACF. They certainly help with the dip factor for clerics, though, because many are quite lovely abilities to compensate for the lack of spells, and are often usable more often by Turn Undead that would otherwise not get used from a dip.

Some you might even consider taking as feats when you meet the prereqs.

Alternately you could choose domains with the same spells. There is some overlap.

[jeffrie]

I forgot Knowledge Devotion was in CC. If you can get it you should add it to the Int Rogue (should you go that way).

 Is there a limit to how many dips you can take? Cloistered Cleric (UA?) is one fun class. Mystic Theurge could be a way around the ol' one spell a level clause.

Rogue (martial)2/ Druid4/ Bard1/ Arcane Hierophant7/ Folchlucan Lyrist6
9th level Druid spells 17thCL
***11th level wild shape (large and tiny, 4xday)
***11th level animal companion
5th level Bard spells 14thCL
***7th level Bardic Knowledge and Music
***Skill points =118+int, Saves =11,9,13 (great)
***Low bab(15) assisted by rogue feats.
XXX Needs Precocious Apprentice; CArc (heighten spell won't do for bard1)

(heh) This guy is near maxed out, even in your current campaign. Talk him into allowing this and you will be busy. AH is from RotW and FL from CAd. Hardly any cheese.

[Wilb]

   I believe that the Devotion feat exchange may pass his judgement, without much problems. As for dipping limits, I believe that he may come with something akin to "training for feats" to multiclassing that may hamper consistent dipping, so that may be a bit limited.
   Jeffrie, how would you build that character with my stats? the highest stat I may start with is 13, and with limited freedom on magic I think it will be hard to get enhancers to both wisdom and charisma.
   I believe going int rogue will be the best for now, then I can go druid or cleric, it depends on wether magic will be slowly but constantly introduced into the game or come en masse, every few levels.
   Now there's still two hours before I go there and put this all to test, any recomendations on how to spend the 30K? (as two players agreed to pool together our funds)

[Drull]

You might want to use the planar domains in SpC. You get only 1 domain with a somewhat greater domain granted power but also a choice of more spells as domain spells.

[Wilb]

that might be a double-edged sword, as the DM may choose the less useful spell out of the two granted by the domain

[Unbeliever]

...
   Now there's still two hours before I go there and put this all to test, any recomendations on how to spend the 30K? (as two players agreed to pool together our funds)

Siege weapons?  Elephants?  Rhinos? 

Play a great white hunter/explorer.  Go Beastmaster (eventually), for a good animal companion to further justify it.  Honestly, these beasts of war (1) actually existed in the 1300s, and were known to some people there, and (2) are crazy powerful for this campaign. 

[Wilb]

Thanks for those last minute tips Unbeliever! I'll see Beastmaster when I arrive there.

    Thank you for all those who contributed! I'm going to go with the int Rogue, later rebuilding if possible, buying a Mobile Redoubt, with some strong beasts to pull it (or oxen) and being a travelling herder/merchant/alchemist with Able Learner and Jack of All Trades, to begin. If you desire, I could post a synthesis of today's session, which can lead to freedom, a strange campaign, or railroading megalomania that rivals Kevin_video's DMs.

[jeffrie]

Rogue (martial)2/ Druid4/ Bard1/ Arcane Hierophant7/ Folchlucan Lyrist6
Raising stats will be a real problem, especially with MAD spellcasters. If there will be later ability bonuses (wish, tome, DM bonus, Item?) you could take the heirophant/lyrist, if not it might not work (to cast a spell character needs spell level = ability-10). It's still probably worth it for the AH(wildshape/companion) and FL(bab and saves), and Bard buffs, if you can.
8,9,10-11,13(18),12 if you are going to 20th with no other enhancers.

If you can get him to let you trade the abilities at point buy cost;
8,8,10-10,13(18),13
Either way you will be short, but not until later levels, when you might have received another bonus.

Rogue(martial)2/ Archivist1/ Beguiler1/ bard1/ Mystic Theurge5/ Folchlucan Lyrist10
Very SAD build here, though Archivist is from Heros of Horror, and Beguiler from Phb2. Oh and you would need to take the regional feat 'bardic college(or whatever)' to speak druidic.
   If you can get this, it is whack. The few things i don't like is Beguiler is not really a blaster (but with DM picking spells it's fine). Heighten spell is the only feat needed to qualify (in my opinion), since beguiler and archivist both get first level spells at first level.
   Only 122+int (189)skill points, but SAD with Int, so lots of skill bonus. 8,12,10-13(18),11,9

Martial Rogue2/ Fighter2/ Wizard5/ Beguiler1/ Ultimate Magus10 (complete mage)
8,12,10-13(18),11,9  or  10,12,10-13(18),10,8
This build doesn't get 9th level spells, but the 18 int can't cast them anyway. It is also lower skills than the ones above (UM and W only get 2) but Int SAD.
*** 4 extra fighter feats, and two extra metamagic feats, as well as dual casting.
or Martial Rogue4/ Wizard5/ Beguiler1/ Ultimate Magus10 for a medium.

Still, with only a few spells per level/day (how many times a day is a very important point), i would consider the int rogue (ask your DM?)
9(10),12,10-13(16),11(12),8 if you want saves. (same as above, but with ability buys)

If you can get Knowledge devotion the int rogue will give everyone a plus to hit everything, but you would have to give up your other max skill (less intrigue). Skip it, and make them take care of themselves.

Take these ideas to your dm and tell him that you trust him but you want him to give you what you can.
Edit PS:When you pick your skills (and feats) consider skills that will seem like spells in this world (sense motive, diplomacy, disguise, speak language) and don't forget to consider if the skill has a DC cap, or an Opposed Roll (opposed may need higher).  And with Jack of all Trades take 10 is your friend. Use it to put zero ranks in as many skills as you can (know, craft, perform, profession, decipher, spellcraft).