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Author Topic: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?  (Read 4537 times)
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Daniel678
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2011, 09:31:12 PM »

One solution to binding creatures who have a Wish SLA would to allow all creatures to use their wish SLA for themselves. The fact that Efreet's can only grant wishes to non-genies is rather silly.

After that you could mention in the description of Dimensional Anchor that a wish spell does allow the creature to escape. Then any creature with a Wish SLA would just be able to Wish themselves out of a Planar Binding.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2011, 10:03:04 PM »

I'm just amazed that Endairre is doing this. . .

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212388

So now that he's plugging away for ideas from multiple sources... whens the big reveal gonna be? Well big E? What the heck?
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Garryl
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2011, 10:05:22 PM »

Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricateWall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

Fabricate can just straight up generate wealth.  Wall of Stone can do the same.  Magic is a regenerating resource (you get the slots back each day) and thus should not build permanent bonuses without some permanent cost (like xp costs or similar).

Anyway, I do think spells like Fabricate need a reworking.  Flesh to Salt just needs a simple "it's a bunch of random salts, most aren't good for eating, and it's tough to purify" line in there to stop endless wealth tricks.  Teleport should probably have a "you can only teleport there if you've been there before" clause on any accurate teleporting to avoid just bypassing all traveling adventures.  Genesis needs a "no mucking with time" clause on the arcane version, like the divine version has.  The polymorph line needs a "but you don't get spells" clause among other things.  And no spell should completely blow away a skill (see Arcane Lock and Knock vs. Open Lock).  Also, a few spells are just written wrong, like that gaze attack spell in SpC that accidentally gives you a permanent gaze attack (it's supposed to be a one off).

And no spell should just replace party members (this means you, Animate Dread Warrior).  Also, Planar Binding needs to be fixed to avoid wish loops, though honestly I wonder if having Efreetis be able to force you to pay the xp cost for Wishes might help a great deal.

JaronK

I went through the SRD once and tried to find and fix the spells that completely obviate certain skills, or just grant ridiculous bonuses that eclipse any character's actual ranks. You can find my results and ideas here (1st spoiler, scroll down past the new skill uses). If you want to fix that issue, this should save you a bit of work, if only by identifying most of the spells that may need adjusting. I know I missed at least some relevant spells.
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2011, 10:09:46 PM »

I'm just amazed that Endairre is doing this. . .

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212388

So now that he's plugging away for ideas from multiple sources... whens the big reveal gonna be? Well big E? What the heck?
+1

Oh, but when it's done, it will be the best RPG ever.  Even if it's based on what that has been out of print for over a decade.  Of course, that will be in year 2037 or something.
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JaronK
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2011, 11:28:10 PM »

Yeah, something like the genies with a permanent major creation effect, and some fabricate effects, so that they can create wealth but it's detectably dispellable.  A Permanent Greater Magic Weapon effect could also work.  Stuff like that.  Still abusable that way, but not as bad...

JaronK
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veekie
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2011, 07:09:42 AM »

Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricateWall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

Fabricate can just straight up generate wealth.  Wall of Stone can do the same.  Magic is a regenerating resource (you get the slots back each day) and thus should not build permanent bonuses without some permanent cost (like xp costs or similar).

Anyway, I do think spells like Fabricate need a reworking.  Flesh to Salt just needs a simple "it's a bunch of random salts, most aren't good for eating, and it's tough to purify" line in there to stop endless wealth tricks.  Teleport should probably have a "you can only teleport there if you've been there before" clause on any accurate teleporting to avoid just bypassing all traveling adventures.  Genesis needs a "no mucking with time" clause on the arcane version, like the divine version has.  The polymorph line needs a "but you don't get spells" clause among other things.  And no spell should completely blow away a skill (see Arcane Lock and Knock vs. Open Lock).  Also, a few spells are just written wrong, like that gaze attack spell in SpC that accidentally gives you a permanent gaze attack (it's supposed to be a one off).

And no spell should just replace party members (this means you, Animate Dread Warrior).  Also, Planar Binding needs to be fixed to avoid wish loops, though honestly I wonder if having Efreetis be able to force you to pay the xp cost for Wishes might help a great deal.

JaronK
More a flaw with the way magic items are handled I think. If magical wealth = mundane wealth anyway. If you can divorce magical wealth from regular wealth a lot of the issues with adventurer money would evaporate.
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Endarire
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2011, 05:37:19 PM »

Questions
1: How do y'all feel about save-or-'die' effects?  (These are permanent or nearly-permanent creature stoppers, like flesh to stone, phantasmal killer, and wail of the banshee.  Some are just long-term debuffs that last for minutes or hours after the fight.)  I like them, but I want to be able to get proper wards for them.  (Making counterspelling easier also helps.)

2: How do y'all feel about permanent and long-term minions, such as from animate dead and planar binding?  They make the game far more interesting for me, but need set limits.

3: How do y'all feel about world remodeling spells?  I emphasize stone shape, wall of stone, and fabricate, though true creation and genesis are on the top end.

Main Concerns
My main concerns are thus.

1: Remove infinite and nearly infinite loops.  I hate having to state this rule every time I ask for build help or for build competitions.  For example, minions generally can't make permanent minions.  Planar binding has restrictions on what abilities called creatures can use.

2: There should be ample time, level-wise, to get defenses for otherwise hard-to-counter abilities.  See freedom of movement and black tentacles.

3: Spells that make permanent minions and resources need their costs tweaked.  Planar binding should (and does in my rewrites) have a limit to the number of creatures you can control at a time.  Explosive runes needs a duration or damage other than "Stack Me."  Illusory script?  Seriously, what?!

4: Spells that grant extra actions are extremely restricted.  No celerity - any of the series.  Just no.  Time stop can stay @9, but probably needs tweaking to make it a set 2 or 3 rounds instead of Maximize and Empower Me.

5: Counterspelling should be easier.  In my rewrites, it will be.

6: Cost-benefit analysis.  Some core abilities I've never used.  I only noticed them as I was flipping through spells.  Some abilities need their durations increased to dissuade people from trying to find every way to make them last longer than they should.

7: This is more of a system thing, but initiative has too many ways of being boosted.  I'm fine with many DEX boosters, a Luckstone, the maneuver Moment of Alacrity, and a lesser version of moment of prescience.

8: Another system thing:  Non-casters get too few options compared to casters.  (Even Tome of Battle classes get a small number of spiffy class features and instead rely on maneuvers and stances to keep things interesting.)  When your best class features are "hit" and "hit harder," something's amiss.  (This too is changing.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 05:44:39 PM by Endarire » Logged

Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM »

I don't mind Save or Dies.  There are already Save or Sucks, which are very similar, but make the mage feel less special.  And, I like how SoD compares to just doing a ton of damage:  they both target different things (though they often travel together, viz. Fort save and hp), so you can have interesting match-ups rock, paper, scissors style. 
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2011, 06:00:46 PM »

I like animate dead the way it is, maybe make some rules for the undead variants in libris mortis.

I like wall of stone, there should be some undispellable wall.

I like the idea of genesis, some people want a place of their own, it just needs better restrictions.
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JaronK
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »

Questions
1: How do y'all feel about save-or-'die' effects?  (These are permanent or nearly-permanent creature stoppers, like flesh to stone, phantasmal killer, and wail of the banshee.  Some are just long-term debuffs that last for minutes or hours after the fight.)  I like them, but I want to be able to get proper wards for them.  (Making counterspelling easier also helps.)

Fine, as long as it doesn't lead to tanky character being far too fragile (and thus not tanks).

Quote
2: How do y'all feel about permanent and long-term minions, such as from animate dead and planar binding?  They make the game far more interesting for me, but need set limits.

As a rule, they shouldn't be nearly as strong as players.  Zombies and such are basically fine, but stuff like Animate Dread Warrior that can make minions nearly as good as PCs are a problem.  There should be costs associated, though.

Quote
3: How do y'all feel about world remodeling spells?  I emphasize stone shape, wall of stone, and fabricate, though true creation and genesis are on the top end.

For the most part, I think these should be Permanent, not Instantaneous, so they can be dispelled and there's good reason to build things the old fashioned way.  You could also make an Exp cost to make it undispellable.  Of course, I also think crafting should be MUCH faster.  If a level 10 Fighter can battle dragons and a level 10 Rogue can disappear almost to invisibility, why shouldn't a level 10 craftsman create amazing masterpieces very quickly?  I like the house rule that your crafting rate is based on ranks in the skill... you can craft up to (Ranks Squared) * DC in sp in stuff per day.  Thus, someone making DC 10 objects with 4 ranks can make 16gp worth of stuff per day, while someone with 10 ranks making DC 20 stuff can make 200gp in stuff per day.  Because why shouldn't a super expert craftsman bust out masterwork plate in a week or so?  Why shouldn't a serious PC crafter at high levels (15 ranks, perhaps) knock out 4500gp of stuff in a day?  He'd be level 12, after all.  That alone would make Fabricate less crazy by comparison (especially if you could dispel the changes).  If you do this, there should be cheaply available magic items for determining if an item is just a permanent enchantment.

Quote
1: Remove infinite and nearly infinite loops.  I hate having to state this rule every time I ask for build help or for build competitions.  For example, minions generally can't make permanent minions.  Planar binding has restrictions on what abilities called creatures can use.

Minion making works as long as you can only control a limited amount.  If your shadow creates spawn and you don't have enough space for the spawn, the spawn is not controlled.  That solves a lot.  Wish loops need to be restricted heavily, certainly.  But yes, infinite loops in general need to go.

Quote
2: There should be ample time, level-wise, to get defenses for otherwise hard-to-counter abilities.  See freedom of movement and black tentacles.

Yes, but then again, we don't want to turn this into rock paper scissors.  There shouldn't be one attack where you MUST have that one defense, nor should one defense make you completely immune to a category of attacks.  Resistant, sure, but not immune.  Stuff like Mindblank and Freedom of Movement are problematic.

Quote
3: Spells that make permanent minions and resources need their costs tweaked.  Planar binding should (and does in my rewrites) have a limit to the number of creatures you can control at a time.  Explosive runes needs a duration or damage other than "Stack Me."  Illusory script?  Seriously, what?!

Yes, Planar Binding needs a lot of work.

Quote
4: Spells that grant extra actions are extremely restricted.  No celerity - any of the series.  Just no.  Time stop can stay @9, but probably needs tweaking to make it a set 2 or 3 rounds instead of Maximize and Empower Me.

Eh, Time Stop is so high level that I'm not sure I care.  I agree, Celerity needs to not work that way.

Quote
5: Counterspelling should be easier.  In my rewrites, it will be.

Yes, and maybe doable by more than just casters.  Heck, consider making a new class similar to Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages that's an abjuration specialist Gish who has a bunch of antimagic and defense abilities... could be fun.

Quote
6: Cost-benefit analysis.  Some core abilities I've never used.  I only noticed them as I was flipping through spells.  Some abilities need their durations increased to dissuade people from trying to find every way to make them last longer than they should.

Yeah, though I care less about the weak stuff than the strong stuff.

Quote
7: This is more of a system thing, but initiative has too many ways of being boosted.  I'm fine with many DEX boosters, a Luckstone, the maneuver Moment of Alacrity, and a lesser version of moment of prescience.

Sure.

Quote
8: Another system thing:  Non-casters get too few options compared to casters.  (Even Tome of Battle classes get a small number of spiffy class features and instead rely on maneuvers and stances to keep things interesting.)  When your best class features are "hit" and "hit harder," something's amiss.  (This too is changing.)

Yes, but don't make everything too complex.

JaronK
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Daniel678
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2011, 06:36:43 PM »

Q1: I like save or dies as long as there are protections against them (>< MD). Nothing should be able to flat out kill your character.

Q2: I also like long term minions however I also feel that they are too hard to balance. It is too difficult to have a real cost for them. The main reason behind this is that spell slots, which are the standard cost for spells, don't apply to effects which last longer than a day. Therefore for spells like Animate Dead and Planar Binding you have a huge number of creatures for free (or very cheaply). The alternative is the model of Planar Ally where the cost is in gold and experience. However under this model you are using up a finite resource in place of one which is restored every day.

Q3: I really, really like world remodeling spells. There are a huge number of spells for destruction so why shouldn't there be spells for creation? These spells allow the PC's (and enemies) to build structures in a realistic amount of time. However I do not think that they should be able to produce items of value without costing an equal amount of value. I am alright with allowing such a spell to accelerate the effects of a craft check to create value.

C6: Two things that I think should be changed are the effects of the Persistent Spell feat and the action required to cast many defensive or melee combat spells. Persistent Spell should really be changed to increase spell durations by a factor of 10 or so instead of having them last all day. I also think that it should only be able to effect spells with a variable duration (X/CL). A lot of buffs which are useful in battle should be able to be cast as swift actions. A lot of those short duration buffs can be useful in battle however if you are not able to cast them right before combat starts then you might as well not bother. The cost for these spells should be in dedicating a spell slot (or spell known) to them. It should not be spending a turn on a ridiculously suboptimal action. The best example of this is probably Mirror Image and Greater Mirror Image.
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Unbeliever
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2011, 06:54:55 PM »

C6: Two things that I think should be changed are the effects of the Persistent Spell feat and the action required to cast many defensive or melee combat spells. Persistent Spell should really be changed to increase spell durations by a factor of 10 or so instead of having them last all day. I also think that it should only be able to effect spells with a variable duration (X/CL). A lot of buffs which are useful in battle should be able to be cast as swift actions. A lot of those short duration buffs can be useful in battle however if you are not able to cast them right before combat starts then you might as well not bother. The cost for these spells should be in dedicating a spell slot (or spell known) to them. It should not be spending a turn on a ridiculously suboptimal action. The best example of this is probably Mirror Image and Greater Mirror Image.
I don't necessarily disagree w/ this.  But, doesn't this imply that something like Quicken Spell, assuming we are using metamagic reducers (which is really the only way to use Persist anyway) should just be used instead?  It'd be weaker than Persist, certainly, but I took that to be part of the point. 
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Daniel678
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2011, 07:38:52 PM »

The problem with quicken spell is very few 1st level spells are an action in combat. When you quicken a spell you want to get the most out of it. This means that you will probably choose to quicken one of the spells that you would already be using in combat. By reducing the base casting time of some spells which are not worth a combat action then you reduce their cost significantly. You still can't cast these spells every turn since you would run out of spells per day, however they would see a lot more use.

My point about Persist spell was slightly different, although it covers the same problem. Anyway, reducing the cost of Persist spell goes hand in hand with reducing it's power. If it was changed to increase the duration of a spell by a factor of ten (maxing out at 1 day) then it's cost would be able to be reduced to a +3 or +4. Then you wouldn't need to abuse metamagic reducers in order to use it. I think that stacking metamagic harms the game and all of those abilities should read "You cannot use X to add metamagic feats that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can cast normally." This would remove a lot of the worst abuse.
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Endarire
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2011, 08:18:45 PM »

How do you feel about being able to use Divine Metamagic: Persistent only 2 or 3 times daily?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2011, 09:11:48 PM »

As I recall, second edition Persistence simply allowed you to turn the spell's duration on and off as needed.  If the spell lasted 10 rounds, it still lasted 10 rounds--but you could use those rounds over the course of a day or more.

Might not be a bad way of doing things.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2011, 09:41:45 PM »

How do you feel about being able to use Divine Metamagic: Persistent only 2 or 3 times daily?
I think it should be discussed separately.  Spells that are really good Persistent tend to be levels 4+, anyway, and as such aren't Persistable by the normal means.

For Save or Die effects, I'm thinking some of them just shouldn't be Save or Die.  Phantasmal Killer and Weird should reduce HP to -1 (with some boilerplated text preventing bucket-o-water shenanigans).  They are, afterall, illusory effects.  With that in place, I think you can fully justify Weird being an 8th- or 7th-level spell instead of 9th.  Also, take the Death descriptor off of both spells, especially since they're not killing anyone anymore.  There are enough ways to immunize yourself against Fear that the spell is neutered enough.  Also, the fact that you have to fail two saving throws (and pretty much everyone has at least one of them very high) is just weak.  Speaking of, Fear should be disconnected from Mind-Affecting.  Some spells should have both descriptors, some probably should have one or the other.  There's no good reason for Undead to be any less scared of being destroyed as Humanoids are of dying.

Also, spells like CoP or Planar Binding are perfectly fine if you have the DM actually role-play these creatures the spells are interacting with and force the characters to make the related checks.  Mind Blank, however... that immunity to divinations effect really needs to be clarified.  I'm almost certain it's only supposed to protect against spells like Detect Thoughts, and not against things like Scrying or Divination.

Some spells I think should be reviewed are, essentially, everything and anything Undead related.  In fact, pretty much anything and everything Undead-related should be re-written, from Turn Undead to Animate Dead to the Undead Type itself.  I'll shamelessly plug my own fix linked from my signature, which should deal with a few of the issues.
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Unbeliever
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2011, 10:31:58 PM »

I'd be fine w/ what X-Codes describes for save or dies.  Really, if they are all sort of "save or be totally screwed but there is something that exists to mitigate it," that would work, I think.  Stuff like Glass Strike or Flesh to Stone, for example.  You could dispel it (a fairly common effect) or have a more particular spell or effect used to counter it. 

I'm also against non-mindless undead being immune to mind-affecting, something we've houseruled.  You can scare vampires, and the like, but not zombies.
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Daniel678
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2011, 10:34:56 PM »

The problem that I have with DMM: Persistent is that even if you only use it 2-3 times per day you can persist very ridiculous spells. Consumptive Field is probably the best example of this. As a full day buff it gets turned into something completely different than it is as a round/level buff. Delay Death, Choose Destiny, Shapechange, Visage of the Deity Righteous Might, and Divine Power are all examples of this. I think that some of these like Righteous Might and Divine Power should be nerfed slightly and  changed to swift actions. That way it's still a decision whether or not to use them for a combat and it doesn't cause the player to feel useless if they need to spend a few round casting buff spells.

If DMM had clause that said "You cannot use Divine Metamagic to add metamagic feats that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can cast normally." then it would be impossible to do that pre-epic. I also think that you should not be able to persist spells with a shorter duration than 5 rounds.

On the other hand this would make Persist unusable before 13th level. That is one reason why I think that it's cost and benefit should be lowered. Another option would be to remove Persist altogether and allow Extend to stack.
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2011, 10:48:47 PM »

This rambles... 'rewrite' meaning weaker than what's in the dirt handbook fixes?
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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2011, 11:02:08 PM »

This rambles... 'rewrite' meaning weaker than what's in the dirt handbook fixes?
Well, it started out as what honestly needs a re-write and turned into what people think should be how D&D works.

Polymorph Any Object just needs way too much to be clarified still as it is now.
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