Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?

[JaronK]

On Persistent Spell: The main issue is that it treats a 10 min/level spell the same as a round/level spell, which makes spells that are balanced by short durations unbalanced.  An obvious fix would be for it to have lower cost, but a steady duration change... perhaps 1 round becomes 1 minute, round/level becomes minute/level, minute/level becomes hour/level, and all to a max 24 hours, for example.  That might help.  That stops persistent Wraithstrike and similar from being insane.

JaronK

[veekie]

On Save or Die/Lose:
Mutants and Masterminds has a hold on these. Essentially they should act as a hefty debuff effect, unless you fail the save by a large margin(10+), in which case you're removed from play by the effect. Theres also gradations, merely failing the save might make you Shaken/Dazzled/whatever for -2 or slow your movement, failing by 5 means you're Slowed, or unable to perform certain actions, generally enough of a debuff to lose a fight, failing by 10 takes you out.

Permanent effects and minions, it depends on the specific sort. Effects that don't contribute to combat are effectively harmless, so you SHOULD be able to have effectively unlimited amounts of really weak minions(< CR-4), while effects dealing with equals or anywhere-near-equals should be lacking the loyalty clause. They only serve if you can bribe or coerce them.

World remodeling should be a larger part of the game, truth be told. Most wizards are absolutely fantastic at killing things in three hundred different ways...but change the world? No way! Areas are large, yet nowhere large enough to actually level cities or armies without abuse, most remodeling effects are just minor arts and crafts. You can't actually cut off gravity in an area on a permanent basis, or create other mythic magical effects.

[Unbeliever]

On Save or Die/Lose:
Mutants and Masterminds has a hold on these. Essentially they should act as a hefty debuff effect, unless you fail the save by a large margin(10+), in which case you're removed from play by the effect. Theres also gradations, merely failing the save might make you Shaken/Dazzled/whatever for -2 or slow your movement, failing by 5 means you're Slowed, or unable to perform certain actions, generally enough of a debuff to lose a fight, failing by 10 takes you out.
...

But, the prevailing wisdom in M&M is that Afflictions are entirely too weak.  The second degree (fail by 5+) does not come up that often, and usually requires repeated applications of the power -- something that doesn't matter as much in a game where there are no spell slots -- and you also get a save every turn to shrug off the effect (except for the 3rd degree, fail by 10 effect).  M&M very much as a wear them down type approach to combat, and I'm also told that combats are expected to last longer there than in D&D (10 vs. 4 rounds). 

[RobbyPants]

Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricate?  Wall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

Fabricate can just straight up generate wealth.  Wall of Stone can do the same.  Magic is a regenerating resource (you get the slots back each day) and thus should not build permanent bonuses without some permanent cost (like xp costs or similar).

XP isn't a permanent cost, either*. You'd have to lock out a spell slot, or something.


* If you don't lose enough XP to keep you from gaining a level when the group does, then you didn't really lose anything. If you do end up a level behind the group, you start gaining XP faster, which might result in a net gain of XP. Really, XP costs should be removed from spells and crafting entirely. They sound cute on paper, but they don't do what the designers think they do.

[X-Codes]

Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricate?  Wall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

Fabricate can just straight up generate wealth.  Wall of Stone can do the same.  Magic is a regenerating resource (you get the slots back each day) and thus should not build permanent bonuses without some permanent cost (like xp costs or similar).

XP isn't a permanent cost, either*. You'd have to lock out a spell slot, or something.


* If you don't lose enough XP to keep you from gaining a level when the group does, then you didn't really lose anything. If you do end up a level behind the group, you start gaining XP faster, which might result in a net gain of XP. Really, XP costs should be removed from spells and crafting entirely. They sound cute on paper, but they don't do what the designers think they do.

While we're at it, there are other spells that really shouldn't take a spell slot, even though they're nice effects to have in-game, mostly Divinations.  The reason Spontaneous Divination is so damn good for Wizards is because you want these Divinations around *sometimes*, just not all the time.  That's what I like, somewhat, about 4e's ritual system: spells that really aren't combat oriented shouldn't be used at the expense of combat resources, just from the perspective of designing the game for balance.

[Redeemer of Ogar]

World remodeling should be a larger part of the game, truth be told. Most wizards are absolutely fantastic at killing things in three hundred different ways...but change the world? No way! Areas are large, yet nowhere large enough to actually level cities or armies without abuse, most remodeling effects are just minor arts and crafts. You can't actually cut off gravity in an area on a permanent basis, or create other mythic magical effects.

This +1.
My biggest beef with knocking Bull's Strength etc down in duration was that I could no longer use them out of combat. Increased strength for 5 minutes doesn't help you be a carpenter or stonemason. Charisma for 5 minutes doesn't help you convince the king to help your village. Con for 5 minutes doesn't help you get back to the village with the bad news. I rather liked the earlier idea of returning stacking to Extend, but I'd really like the spells that should have strong out-of-combat utility to have 10min/lvl casting times. I understood why hr/lvl was too much, but they overcompensated IMHO.

[veekie]

On Save or Die/Lose:
Mutants and Masterminds has a hold on these. Essentially they should act as a hefty debuff effect, unless you fail the save by a large margin(10+), in which case you're removed from play by the effect. Theres also gradations, merely failing the save might make you Shaken/Dazzled/whatever for -2 or slow your movement, failing by 5 means you're Slowed, or unable to perform certain actions, generally enough of a debuff to lose a fight, failing by 10 takes you out.
...

But, the prevailing wisdom in M&M is that Afflictions are entirely too weak.  The second degree (fail by 5+) does not come up that often, and usually requires repeated applications of the power -- something that doesn't matter as much in a game where there are no spell slots -- and you also get a save every turn to shrug off the effect (except for the 3rd degree, fail by 10 effect).  M&M very much as a wear them down type approach to combat, and I'm also told that combats are expected to last longer there than in D&D (10 vs. 4 rounds). 

So make the second degree the default effect on a failed save and make the first degree the effect of a successful save without a mettle ability(and then give Mettle out like candy to melee).

[JaronK]

* If you don't lose enough XP to keep you from gaining a level when the group does, then you didn't really lose anything. If you do end up a level behind the group, you start gaining XP faster, which might result in a net gain of XP. Really, XP costs should be removed from spells and crafting entirely. They sound cute on paper, but they don't do what the designers think they do.

But if it's enough to slow you down, it's enough to avoid massive abuse.  Even if the cost for one undispellable wall isn't too bad, that should be enough to stop someone from being the primary iron provider for a continent.

As far as changing the world... a single Lyre of Building is sufficient to provide virtually all the building for a city, especially when combined with a Binder who's using Zceryll to get Genies (and thus have endless wood to work with, including rare woods like Soarwood, Bronzewood, and Wildwood).  That's a bit much.  And obviously currently a Wish Loop can change worlds.

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

In our rebalancing (even though it failed, it had a lot of good discussion)
Save or Dies
 We made save or die spells a full round action
That still doesn't account for save or loses attached to BFC spells.

Celerity & Battlefield Control
The thing is I was looking at battlefiled control and how Endairre was talking about action abuse. Casting Acid Fog and tentcles... are virtual action advantage, and I notice he outlawed celerity, and things that effect initiative.
This is interesting because while we KNOW it's rocket tag. Things like that take the ability to avoid being GANKED right out in some ways.

Enemies laying in wait (undectectable etc...) is one major thing that the players seem to always have against them, in rocket tag.
Just some random musings.

Polymorph
I also, hate all the people that want to fuck over polymorph, and in some ways other "Buff Spells" there have been form of the X spells too and maybe thats what it needs to be, however....
The wizards ability to turn to a combat brute by going all One winged angel is a legit trope that should probably be left in. Tensers doesn't cut it.
 I'm not saying it shuold be all powerful but the argument that I hear most often is that they should lose the ability to turn to a hydra because it makes fighters feel small in the pants is a horrid one.
The real problem with it is that its a "Do everything spell", I saw lycantromancer do this with metamorphasis on a psywar of all things.
So. . .
Turning to a hydra: Yes, please.
Using one spell to turn to a: hydra, Shark, Wyvern, and a creature that burrows as well... no.

Wizards having their own divine power isn't so bad, much in the same way they have invisibility which is greater than or equal to hide.

[Endarire]

I don't mind polymorph and co making casters into fighter-types.  I dislike how the "Fighters" (Warblades and Crusaders, mostly) often fall behind a Wizard who just happened to have polymorph handy.

[veekie]

Yeah, theres two things Polymorph has to do here:
1) Make a Wizard capable in close quarters combat.
2) Enhance a Fighter type such that a polymorphed Fighter should melee better than a polymorphed Wizard.

[RobbyPants]

* If you don't lose enough XP to keep you from gaining a level when the group does, then you didn't really lose anything. If you do end up a level behind the group, you start gaining XP faster, which might result in a net gain of XP. Really, XP costs should be removed from spells and crafting entirely. They sound cute on paper, but they don't do what the designers think they do.

But if it's enough to slow you down, it's enough to avoid massive abuse.  Even if the cost for one undispellable wall isn't too bad, that should be enough to stop someone from being the primary iron provider for a continent.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying.

In the short run, it may or may not slow you down. In the long run, it either barely slows you down or actually gives you a net gain (speeding you up). This is as much a fault of the XP rules as anything else, but so long as they work that way, spells with XP tend to have a counter-intuitive effect.

[JaronK]

I'm saying that for spells that, when looped, result in massive world changes (basically, spells with long term permanent effects), an xp cost can be an appropriate cost because casting it too many times will really hurt.  Sure, losing 1k exp here or there doesn't matter much, but doing it 20 times actually will slow you down significantly and doing it 100 will really matter.

I'm thinking here of spells that can be used for infinite wealth if cast over and over, for example.  Consider the fact that nobody abuses the True Creation spell without turning it into an Sp or Su ability to dodge the exp cost... there the cost is simply too high for the benefit.  So the idea of balancing that way CAN work.  If done right.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

I see what you mean. I didn't catch your drift on "massive" abuse. So the XP cost on it's own isn't big, but once used many times, it adds up to the point that it takes a while to catch back up.

[Midnight_v]

Insert Quote
I don't mind polymorph and co making casters into fighter-types.  I dislike how the "Fighters" (Warblades and Crusaders, mostly) often fall behind a Wizard who just happened to have polymorph handy   

Okay but lets look at WHY that is. . . WHY do they fall behind?
SIZE and Reach. That can be attained through the spell, so thats a boost right there.
Movement Speeds. 
Massive Str/Armor boosts.
Various Special abilities.
------------------------------------------------
So I'm wondering what part of that do you want to come out exactly? You CAN nerf it to where people really don't use it.
Though there are polymorph fixes all over the net. I've gotta know do you find the Patfinder Polymorph more to your liking?

Yeah, theres two things Polymorph has to do here:
1) Make a Wizard capable in close quarters combat.
2) Enhance a Fighter type such that a polymorphed Fighter should melee better than a polymorphed Wizard.

I don't agree with that. Turning into Monster should make you the monster and just that.
NOT a monster with your spell casting ability's, and stats.
NOT a monster with robilars gambit and shocktrooper. (Unless that monster has those feats naturally).
Or...
You could go with something like Bite of the WereX, style spell alternatively.

My final problem with polymorph is this sometimes people want to grab the book and peruse through for forms on the spot. Its annoying many people want the "thing" you turn into to be selected before hand.

So maybe the spell could force selected form at selection that you choose. You know Form of the Hydra, and you can learn new versions of the spell as you go.

In anycase polymorph is one of those spell I think that most people are unhappy with probabbly needs correction. Though *shrug* it'd suck to see it nerfed into really bad spells too. There has to be a middleground.

[awaken DM golem]

Divinations could be tagged
with whatever CL or "level" they have,
and make that be the ~level info you get.

idk how to do this. But as a for instance:
Level 8 Div at CL 15, lets you know up to 8th level powers/spell and -likes
and (su) of monsters with 15 hd or less.
Level 4 Div at CL 11, lets you know up to 4th level spells (but not powers)
and natural attacks, or monster with 11 hd or less.
 
This would require assigning a "level-something" to each monster ability.
That's a whole !@#$-ton of work ... I don't wanna do it ; busy and lazy.

 

[SorO_Lost]

You know, Polymorph for melee isn't a big deal to me.

It's powerful traits isn't big sizes for combat, it's small sizes and increased mobility to escape. It isn't AC since AC sucks and if you are not side stepping the lack of armor only makes up for it. It tries to make up for dumping Str and gives you a larger weapon, but your HP blows and weapon Enhancements are better than an extra d6. You will always lack those combat feats that make melee good and without squeezin Divine Power in your chances to hit are worse than the original monster you turned into. The previous poster that commented on this added in the Crusader & Warblade to the guy he quoted from like the shitty melee gain for being Polymorphed comes close to Maneuvers suggests his problem has little to do with what Polymorph does do vs what it sounds like it can do. It's like, if Shapechange is very powerful and POA great too. And Polymorph is a lower level version of those spells. Polymorph is teh brokenz. Umm no, just no. It doesn't work like that.

Don't get me wrong it is pretty powerful for defense and in many ways it is the caster's version of UMD abit weaker. By using this spell a caster could pretend to be a meleer, they just fall short of well, meleers. Take for example Poly's most powerful combat form, the 12 headed hydra, while a spellcasting hydra seems terrifying. Comparatively your average necromancer concept stockpiles enhanced versions of these things and orders them to attack so he can still cast spells and optimized melee classes solo them for sport. Maybe instead of being a Hydra he is level 12 with Outworldly and turns into an Astrial Deva for a 100ft fly speed, low 20s str/con, +15 natural armor. Decent second example I guess, after all a real Deva is CR 14. Anyway, he still only has +11/+6 to attack vs an average 20 AC. Mindful that not only does the real Deva sport +21 to attack, +30 HP, better fort/relf, but it is capable of Stunning foes with it's melee. Polymorph is used for defense and that's really it.

Now you can stack several spells to be good at melee. Polymorph + Bite Of The ____ is an easy way to combine Poly's defense enhancement with the Bite's offense enhancement. But even with an additional spell per round setup you still run an entire round of combat behind everyone else. If your target could be charged the real melee guy already reduced it to a sticky paste on the floor, and if it couldn't, your other two teammates get to try while you're still standing at the starting line asking if it's go time yet. The break point is really when you can sustain multiple combat buffs though out the day. In which case it's not Polymorph being powerful and it's not Bite Of The ___ that's powerful as you could replace them with any other choice in buff spells. It's the duration. POA is great because for four spell slots in a single day the entire party gains Poly's buffs for a week or longer, Metamagic mitigation and DMM let you combine multiple buffs at once and cast them all in the morning. Shapechange is in a league of it's own, it may start at the same offensive weaknesses as Poly, but it gives you Supernatural traits of the forms you take which up that offensive playing area, but also those Su traits give you a huge choice in utility.

[wotmaniac]

Any spell with multiple scaling versions. Summon Monster, the Polymorph I, II, III, etc spells as mentioned in that other thread, and so on.

Make them scale according to the spell slot used to cast them, so sorcerers won't have to take 9 versions of the exact same spell.

I tried to tackle that here; but it didn't seem to get much traction.




Oh, and since it was mentioned:
I say to slap the [polymorph] subschool on the entire line of bite of the were"x" (as in, you actually turn in to a hybrid-form(only) lycanthrope), and disallow spells from the same subschool from stacking.
otherwise, fuck bite of the were"x".

[Endarire]

How does thie crowd feel about mind control effects?  Charm, dominate, and suggestion are pretty open-ended and brutal if you're stuck being your enemy's friend.

I like being able to do it to foes, but my characters tend to be paranoid about having it done against them.

[wotmaniac]

How does thie crowd feel about mind control effects?  Charm, dominate, and suggestion are pretty open-ended and brutal if you're stuck being your enemy's friend.

I like being able to do it to foes, but my characters tend to be paranoid about having it done against them.

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.