[Pathfinder] So one of my players wants to play a Shadowcaster...

[kalaskaagathas]

I'm trying to figure out the Shadow Magic system, and I'm reading the Shadowcaster guide, but I was wondering if anyone here's played one and might point out common issues with the class.  I know there are fixes for the class out there, are any particularly good?  And has anyone taken the time to adapt it to the Pathfinder system?

Thanks.

[veekie]

This one could be worth a look

[kalaskaagathas]

This one could be worth a look

I'll check it out, thanks.

[rasmuswagner]

First off, use the "official" fixes (they're written by the guy who wrote the class in the first place)

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

The quick PF treatment is 1d6 for HD, 2 skill points/level, remove Concentration, merging skills into Stealth and Perception. Consider adding Fly.

Fundamentals should be usable at-will. Starting with 3 known and using the progression from Shadowcaster seems OK.

That should be enough to get you started.

[kalaskaagathas]

First off, use the "official" fixes (they're written by the guy who wrote the class in the first place)

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

The quick PF treatment is 1d6 for HD, 2 skill points/level, remove Concentration, merging skills into Stealth and Perception. Consider adding Fly.

Fundamentals should be usable at-will. Starting with 3 known and using the progression from Shadowcaster seems OK.

That should be enough to get you started.

Alright, that seems like a good idea.  Does the Shadowcaster Gestalt well with Rogue?

[kalaskaagathas]

Ok, so I'm having trouble figuring out how this Shadowcaster works.  I'm using the "official" fix, plus the recommendations of rasmuswagner above.

I'm thinking about having the Shadowcaster know all of its mysteries, and only having a certain number prepared per day.  That number would probably be their normal number of Mystery uses per day (with bonus mysteries per day for a high Int score).  Would that work?

What about a recharge mechanic, as presented here?  Would combining the two be too much (there are two fairly optimized wizards in the party)?

[WarlockLord]

No.

Hell, it may still be behind the wizards - mysteries are not as strong as spells.

[kalaskaagathas]

No.

Hell, it may still be behind the wizards - mysteries are not as strong as spells.

That's kinda what I figured.  I'm not introducing the recharge mechanic just yet - if I do it for her I want to do it for everyone.  But we'll see.

[CantripN]

Shadowcaster, with Recharge, is still less than a Wizard. A Wizard, with Recharge, is nothing short of a true GOD.

You know what? I take it all back. This thing is scary good. It's a Tier 1 class, and well within the power of a Wizard (unless they break the game, but hey, who can't?)

[kalaskaagathas]

Shadowcaster, with Recharge, is still less than a Wizard. A Wizard, with Recharge, is nothing short of a true GOD.

You know what? I take it all back. This thing is scary good. It's a Tier 1 class, and well within the power of a Wizard (unless they break the game, but hey, who can't?)

Hmmm, how do you figure?  It seems to me powerful, but not Tier 1 versatile.  What am I missing?  And for now I'm using the "official" fix (sorta, I'll detail my changes below), but I may give her the option of playing the fix you linked - I figure it'll be easier for me since it's just Vancian spellcasting, but since she's never played a caster before her playing a shadowcaster rather than, say, a beguiler doesn't introduce any additional complexity for her.  We'll see what she picks, if I give her the option (I really need to take a better look at that fix).

My changes to the "official" Shadowcaster Fix:

1. Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2. Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Intelligence. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3. A Shadowcaster knows all of its Mysteries, but prepares only a certain number per day (using the old Mysteries known plus the bonus mysteries per day granted above).

4. Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to.  Instead, you get a bonus feat at level 2, and every four levels thereafter.

5. You gain four Fundamentals at level 1, and these can be used as often as you like (I'm adding some more Fundamentals to make this practicable).

6. Metashadow feats can be used three times per day, rather than once per day.

7. Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

The one I'm least sure about is this:

8. Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, they are usable as often as you like, rather than thrice each.

What do you think of those changes?  I'm keeping the Mysteries mostly unchanged, and adding a few here and there to shore up some holes (and let her do some of the things she wants to do).

[CantripN]

Then, yes, you need something like Recharge to make it useful. Otherwise, it plays like a poorly prepared Wizard - that is, dead.