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[AstralFire]

Well, let's think about this.  AC is one of the least important defenses.  A +10 to it isn't much.  It means that they can make 1 attack/round really unlikely to hit.  Add in more than one attack/round needing to be avoided (easy even at low levels: two opponents)...  I find a bigger problem keeping it viable at high levels.  So how about starting it off at a -6 penalty to the attack.  Every 4 levels (or more, ore less) this penalty increases by 2.  There can be a PrC or feat (or both) that plays off this more, but otherwise it's just one attack.

And yes, Octopus would be more attacks being able to be deflected, with a bigger penalty (augmentable).  Possibly more, but with this you actually have to do something to get those.  Reducing attacks is one way, that I think we should look more into.

Yeah, but we can't forget about strength and durability in those martial arts either. It's not like we have to worry about anyone ever using Dex as a dump stat for these guys, and Str helps eliminate MAD issues for Earth and Fire, who do quite a bit of 'staying in people's faces'.

HP.  Con is always important for endurance.  Strength is more damage.  They are still important to the characters, but to bending itself, not so much, it's all about placement (even earth, even if Toph doesn't like to admit it).

Hmm. -6 scaling up would work, but I do kind of like the potential excitement a reroll can bring in this situation. I think I'd like to sit a bit and think about it, hear what other people have to say too.

I still feel like a Strength focus would help on the further differentiation of the different bending styles as well, as Dexterity increases your ability to dodge attacks and Strength is just offense. The five forms that bending is based on all contain very different philosophies, and we mustn't forget that accuracy doesn't purely come from agility. Melee touch attacks use Strength, after all.

Dexterity will not be forgotten about. Dex is one of the most remembered stats, as an important skill (Tumble), Initiative, and AC all rely on it. Basing fire and earthbending attack roll accuracy on Str is a design decision that prevents 8 Str firebenders from running around all over the place and never engaging in melee because Dex is not a choice, it's the clearly superior choice if they have to try and raise both stats to be effective. I can see a choice or Str or Dex (whichever is higher), but yeah. Though it's oft-commented that Zuko is probably multiclassed with something else, Ozai and Azula use ferocious melee attacks as well, not a fighting style that Weapon Finesse and Dex lends itself to.

I suppose we should probably stow this discussion somewhat until we actually work on Fire and Earth, though.

[dman11235]

Re-rolls by definition require more rolling, and thus take more time.  It's more complicated is all, and simplicity is a good thing.

On abilities: str will still be a good thing to have.  A LOT of seeds require some melee capability, and str helps there.  Wp Finesse allows you to focus less (think Aang, even Zuko was more accurate than strong) on str, but it's still important to have, you can't neglect it.

[AstralFire]

Re-rolls by definition require more rolling, and thus take more time.  It's more complicated is all, and simplicity is a good thing.

That is true. I suppose the system does have to make some sacrifices, it's already a fairly complicated system compared to traditional magic.

On abilities: str will still be a good thing to have.  A LOT of seeds require some melee capability, and str helps there.  Wp Finesse allows you to focus less (think Aang, even Zuko was more accurate than strong) on str, but it's still important to have, you can't neglect it.

I can only recall two seeds and one template as of the last time I poked firebending that benefitted from Strength: Fire Blast (but only if you used melee attacks to channel it, so that's no reason), Explosion (for bull rushing, and wisdom also added to it), and Burning Edge (for melee attacking with those, and the weapon created with that is compatible with WF.) We'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess, last time I was trying to work within stricter confines. I'll look at how strength fits into fire's seeds when I go back to it.

[Zuki]

How often do you see the Deflect Attack option being used in a fight, dman? Yes, adding more dicerolls does slow things down a bit, but a reroll mechanic is still faster than what is currently being used at GITP. I'm now suspecting that playtesting later on might be the best way to figure out what the best mechanic for Deflect Attack should be...but maybe we should broaden the discussion to what exactly it's supposed to represent from the show. Obviously some flashy elemental deflections, avoidances, and parries can be rationalized as simply failing to beat the opponent's AC. From that most abstract perspective, Deflect Attack is a legacy mechanic that we could just drop. I'd rather not do that, because I like the idea of it, and using one's own bending to disrupt the opponent's in a more complicated manner happens often enough and is cool enough that I'm willing to give it a special mechanic to use sometimes. I haven't exactly gone back through my DVDs to pick out which moves count as 'fail to hit AC,' 'made his saving throw,' and which are 'successful Deflect Attack,' and that's the sort of thing that could be argued about for a long, long time. So, how often do you want the Deflect Attack mechanic to be used in fights?

Rerolls do by definition take more time, but it's still a simpler system than what the GITP crew is currently working with. And, as I said, I like the drama of a little risk. If Deflect Attack gets really frequent use I can see how it would be a problem, but if it's used more seldomly I don't think it would slowdown a fight that much. It's certainly quicker than what happens when somebody decides to initiate a grapple, and that's a proactive choice made on the player's turn. I get the suspicion that this issue will be resolved best with playtesting...but that's a long ways off right now. Something should be picked and stuck with for now, but it ain't over 'til it's really over, y'know?

How many seeds could benefit from Strength at this point, anyways? Water and Fire whip are the only ones that come to mind, and they can be finessed. The basic bending blasts all run on Dex at this point, and the 'strength' or pushing ability of water as written in the bending seeds tends to depend on the bender's Wisdom modifier.

[dman11235]

Well...yeah, fire and water are using wis more than str (most seeds for fire are not melee/thrown attacks).  It's earth that can generally use more strength.  The ability to do the seeds is still dex/wis, but the force behind them should be str.

Keep in mind though that even with WF, str adds to damage.

On Deflect Attack: This way is more likely to deflect the attack, and won't have the ability to deflect more than one/round, ever.  Unless we decide to let them take more than one immediate action eventually.  The other way is a 10% increase in AC and a re-roll (i.e., second chance).  Mine is a 30+% increase in AC.  Mine would not be able to be used on nat 20s, because those are auto hits anyway, but it is more likely to actually mean something.  There is no reason why you wouldn't want to use the other way, actually, so that argument is out (it's still a benefit at no cost until high levels, when it's a "don't use ever" mechanic because it takes you swift action which you could use to use a quick seed.

I'll be back later today.

[AstralFire]

Well...yeah, fire and water are using wis more than str (most seeds for fire are not melee/thrown attacks).  It's earth that can generally use more strength.  The ability to do the seeds is still dex/wis, but the force behind them should be str.

Keep in mind though that even with WF, str adds to damage.

On Deflect Attack: This way is more likely to deflect the attack, and won't have the ability to deflect more than one/round, ever.  Unless we decide to let them take more than one immediate action eventually.  The other way is a 10% increase in AC and a re-roll (i.e., second chance).  Mine is a 30+% increase in AC.  Mine would not be able to be used on nat 20s, because those are auto hits anyway, but it is more likely to actually mean something.  There is no reason why you wouldn't want to use the other way, actually, so that argument is out (it's still a benefit at no cost until high levels, when it's a "don't use ever" mechanic because it takes you swift action which you could use to use a quick seed.

I'll be back later today.

It is preferable to give Earth and Firebenders the option to use their Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever is higher. When your attack roll is based on Dexterity and you don't use Power Attack, taking a -1 on your blast damage is really insignificant at higher levels in return for better accuracy to allow you a Rapid Shot and all your iterative attacks landing. They'll pump up Dex or Wis, then the other, then Strength - if they don't decide health is a bigger priority at that point. Strength is an almost worthless statistic if you don't benefit in some way that is not just a 1:1 modifier:damage ratio.

As reference, I point to Swift Hunters, who also get plenty of extra damage die on their ranged attacks.

# Strength: As swift hunters mainly use their skirmish damage for offense, this attribute isn't important for damage. This is a dump stat for two weapon fighting and improved manyshot builds. Still a composite bow can benefit from this, but it's definitely not the first priority.
# Dexterity: Important stat for most of the skills. Also it is a requirement for most feats that can be used to capitalize damage output.
# Constitution: Boosts your hit point total and constitution saves. This is top priority for any character.
# Intelligence: A swift hunter's base classes have a very good selection of skills and skill points per level. The extra skill points from this are nice. While this isn't a first priority, having a decent score in this helps.
# Wisdom: There is a decent amount of skills keyed off wisdom. Also boosts your will saves which should be your lowest. Also ranger spells are based on wisdom. Don't overdo it though, a score of 12-14 should be fine.
# Charisma: Dump stat. Your class features and skills don't have anything to do with this skill.

Also, I looked at Earthbenders, they get pretty much nothing that's Strength based if you take away its ability to apply to their attack rolls. You can't rely on the seeds by themselves, not unless we want to just arbitrarily assign certain seeds' save DCs to be based off of different stats.

Currently there's no method to quicken seeds past a move action without that being built into the augment. I've tossed around the idea, haven't settled on anything though. We should work on that so that there is more usage of the swift and immediate action at the moment.

On further thought, going to side with dman on the basic Deflect Attack mechanic, since the immediate action itself is supposed to bring the drama, the "this is my only option to stay alive!". -6 isn't nearly as overpowering a number at low levels as -10 is, and the scaling increase means it's still viable against the insanely high to-hits we get lategame. The numbers may need tweaking based on playtesting, but they certainly sound good.

[Zuki]

Okay. You didn't directly answer my question, but the sense I get is that you see Deflect being used fairly often. I still think there's good drama in rolling dice, but it's more important to have a useful ability than a 'cool' one. Benders already have lots and lots of cool, anyways. I'm okay with Deflect Attack as an immediate penalty to ranged attack rolls for now.

One the other discussion point, still siding with the idea that Strength and Constitution need concrete benefits to Firebenders and Earthbenders beyond what's offered to any other character. We want them to engage in melee combat, they won't do that if they don't have the stats for it, and players won't assign their stats in such a manner if we don't give them incentives to build characters that way.

[dman11235]

Look at the show.  How often was str a direct benefit for fire?  When using melee attacks: sure.  When blasting....that was a bunch of fancy moves.  Heck, it's got a dance derived directly from firebending.  It's dexterity more than str.  Earth is really the only one that can claim str as more beneficial than dex, since a good part of the seeds is following through strongly, and putting your own strength into it.

[AfterCrescent]

Actually, looking at the show, I'd have to argue that Con would be more valuable for an earthbender than Str. As Toph puts it, its more about your will power and hardiness than physical strength.

[AstralFire]

Look at the show.  How often was str a direct benefit for fire?  When using melee attacks: sure.  When blasting....that was a bunch of fancy moves.  Heck, it's got a dance derived directly from firebending.  It's dexterity more than str.  Earth is really the only one that can claim str as more beneficial than dex, since a good part of the seeds is following through strongly, and putting your own strength into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J8nmdT05R4

Those kicks? Every one of them, they require dexterity to make the motions, but someone without sufficient strength can't actually do them quickly and crisply. Without strength, the fire wouldn't move fast, and would so miss. As a martial artist, you can do all the stretches you want, but if you don't do any strength training you won't actually ever hit anyone. Your attacks will move too slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMgtABkDRE&feature=related

Zhao's punches, especially around the one minute mark? Those movements are sharp and crisp. What you get from controlled strength. There's no flowing to them, they are staccato hammer strikes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JzIr-JBNs8&feature=related
2:50 mark (ignore the crappy music), we get a ground-pounding fist strike. That is not a characteristic of martial arts which emphasize agility over strength.

Everything they do is direct. Even when they dodge or block, it's a very simple, fast side-step followed by a counterattack, not an elaborate parry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leeg8VIV4Aw 1:20, the counter to a firesweep is a stomp.

From a mechanical standpoint, Str is more likely to get neglected, and their entire fighting style is based around projecting the attack so hard and fast the opponent can't stop it - a lot like thrown weapons via Brutal Throw. It's undeniable that Dexterity is important to a Firebender, but mechanically, it is a much stronger stat. There is no worry about it ever being neglected by a frail frontliner, especially not with Initiative riding on it. This means that from a mechanical standpoint, we have to be more concerned about keeping Strength involved or risk getting jumpy psuedomages. That should be a possibility for anyone who wants to do it, but what we see in the show should not be clearly mechanically inferior.

Actually, looking at the show, I'd have to argue that Con would be more valuable for an earthbender than Str. As Toph puts it, its more about your will power and hardiness than physical strength.

My ideal prioritization:
Water: Dex then Int/Wis
Air: Wis then Dex/Con
Earth: Con then Str/Wis
Fire: Str then Wis/Dex

I am also interested in improving the attractiveness of Con for an Earthbender, but it's hard to rationalize Con to Attack Rolls for anything but game mechanics, so it is a matter for other discussion. A d10 hit die, Con to Reflex and the right seeds should be enough, though.

[dman11235]

The thing is, it's not the accuracy of the blows that's con, it's the capability and force of the blows that's con.  That translates easily.

[AstralFire]

The thing is, it's not the accuracy of the blows that's con, it's the capability and force of the blows that's con.  That translates easily.

I can buy that, your attack being so persistent and unstoppable it hits... but not if Strength somehow doesn't make sense to propel fireblasts with speed and accuracy. In that case, I would consider bringing Earth back to d8 because then it goes Con, Wis, Dex.

[AfterCrescent]

Question: Are you trying to balance the benders in a bender only world? Or in a D&D world? If we look at a bender only world, just about every bender is hardier than a common-folk (commoner for lack of a better NPC class), so shouldn't all the classes have a higher than d6 die? Just a thought.

[DetectiveJabsco]

We are trying to balance them in a standard 3.5 world.

[AstralFire]

Question: Are you trying to balance the benders in a bender only world? Or in a D&D world? If we look at a bender only world, just about every bender is hardier than a common-folk (commoner for lack of a better NPC class), so shouldn't all the classes have a higher than d6 die? Just a thought.

Standard 3.5. We are making some considerations towards GitP's custom setting, but... not many. Afterthought, really.

I have to resist the urge to tinker with other benders' seeds. No sense getting ahead of myself.

Regarding speed augmentation, the GitP set-up is:

• One Round or greater cannot be quickened.
• Full-Round reduces to Standard with a +10.
• Standard reduces to Move with an additional +20.
• Move cannot be reduced unless the seed specifies such.

Bending caps out around 45-ish points to spend on each form. Dropping Full-Round to move takes 30 points, or 2/3 of the total potential.
For comparison, psionics caps at 20 points to spend on each power. Augmenting from Standard to Swift is usually a 6 point cost, or about 30% of the total potential.

Now, psionics is probably the single variant most subject to Nova-and-Powerdown, which is not a problem for bending. Also, Quicken Power is a lot more prohibitive - 6 points AND loss of psionic focus. So the cost should probably be slightly higher than psionics' cost, but what we currently have is probably extreme. We could probably do:

• One Round or greater cannot be quickened.
• Dropping down one type is a +10, always.
• Full-Round reduces to Standard with a +10.
• Standard reduces to Move with an additional +10.
• Move reduces to Swift with +10. That's ~66.7% of the bender's total to drop down to swift from full-round, ~44.4% to drop down to move from full or standard to swift.

Yes? No?


Regarding other benders, this seems to be a consensus we are heading towards:

• All: Str to Damage on blast, Deflect Attack is a 1/round immediate action that forces a -6 Ranged Attack penalty on just rolled attack, scales up to -16 by 20.
• Firebenders: Str or Dex to Attack (player's choice), d8 HP, Monk AC
• Earthbenders: Con or Dex to Attack (player's choice), d10 HP, Monk or Swordsage AC at their choice 1st level

(We may wish to leave it at d8 currently if we go with Con to Attack. Con is one of the most valuable ability scores and they already get it to Reflex; I am undecided.)

• Waterbenders: Monk AC
• Airbenders: Higher than Monk AC (+6 max)

Other skill lists:
Firebender: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis)
- The skill list is a bit small, but I'm not sure what to add. I have ideas in mind for Firebender's Leap/Burning Rush to improve their in-fight mobility, so Tumble isn't as necessary, and I think it is a bit thematically inappropriate. Random ideas tossed about:

• Bluff (Azula)
• Decipher Script (The Fire Nation is the most learned/advanced of the nations, and that's a good 'learned' skill)
• Diplomacy (see prior)
• Appraise and Forgery (Ditto)
• Ride
• Knowledge (Geography, Local, Nobility, Religion)
• Hide and Move Silently (Zuko)
• Search (All of the firebenders but Zhao are observant)
• Sense Motive (as above)

Earthbender: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis)

• Balance should probably be a skill for all of them.
• Generally most of what I said for Fire could work for these guys, as the Earth Kingdom wasn't far behind the Fire Nation, and the Dai Li are very different benders from Bumi and Toph - though the Dai Li, with their evasive and aggressive fighting style that's "just so firebender", are likely a PrC

Airbender: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (History)(Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)

• Given Airbender philosophy, Diplomacy and Bluff should both be class skills.
• Heal would be a good fit for ahimsa, but that's a guess.
• Hide and Move Silently - Aang's been sneaky before, hasn't he?
• What the hell is Knowledge (Arcana) doing there and why is there no knowledge (local) or (geography) or survival? They are a bunch of nomads.
• As they are monks, Spot, Listen and Sense Motive seem plausible, but Sense Motive is a beefy skill so I'm not sure.

[dman11235]

Standard 3.5. We are making some considerations towards GitP's custom setting, but... not many. Afterthought, really.

Bingo-bango.  It's easier to adapt standard to special than it is special to standard.  And special-standard-special goes without saying.

On quickening: It can get ridiculous here with swift action seeds, because they aren't limited per day, but that is all balanced out by the fact that benders don't have world shattering power.  So I agree, the ability to use seeds as a swift action is not unbalanced.

All: Str to Damage on blast, Deflect Attack is a 1/round immediate action that forces a -6 Ranged Attack penalty on just rolled attack, scales up to -16 by 20.

Not sure I agree here with str to damage.  I can be convinced, so convince me.  Why should air, fire, and water get str to damage on blasts?

Firebenders: Str or Dex to Attack (player's choice), d8 HP, Monk AC

Hows about Wp Finesse for free at 1?  Solves the issue there.  And agreed on the AC/HP thing, except give them Swordsage AC.

Earthbenders: Con or Dex to Attack (player's choice), d10 HP, Monk or Swordsage AC at their choice 1st level

Swordsage AC (option of light armor).  Why give a player's choice on attack?  I'm addressing it here, but it applies in fire too.  d10 HD.

Waterbenders: Monk AC

Agreed.

Airbenders: Higher than Monk AC (+6 max)

Agreed, but a higher bonus.  +2 AC is nothing.  Make it more: +4 or +5 over monk.  +4 allows for just a doubling.  It's still not all that much, but this is actually noticeable.

Other skill lists:
Firebender: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis)
- The skill list is a bit small, but I'm not sure what to add. I have ideas in mind for Firebender's Leap/Burning Rush to improve their in-fight mobility, so Tumble isn't as necessary, and I think it is a bit thematically inappropriate. Random ideas tossed about:

    * Bluff (Azula)
    * Decipher Script (The Fire Nation is the most learned/advanced of the nations, and that's a good 'learned' skill)
    * Diplomacy (see prior)
    * Appraise and Forgery (Ditto)
    * Ride
    * Knowledge (Geography, Local, Nobility, Religion)
    * Hide and Move Silently (Zuko)
    * Search (All of the firebenders but Zhao are observant)
    * Sense Motive (as above)

Which of those are from firebending?  Not the social skills.  Just because the fire nation is more "developed", doesn't mean it's from the benders.  Bluff, DS, Appraise, Forgery, Know (local, nobility, geography), search, and ride shouldn't be class skills.  Bending can help diplomacy and sense motive though, so those can stay, and hide/MS.  But the others, they don't fit as a class skill here.  Most of them are from the upbringing (regional feats, Able Learner), or cross class, and search isn't how observant you are, that's spot.

Earth: see above.

Air: agree on diplomacy (should be for all), but bluff is a bit iffy.  I can see it, if only for feinting.  I'll put my list for skills up later tomorrow.

On a different note, how do you all suggest we organize these changes?  A new thread where we just catalog them?  Or should we just set random posts where we figure out everything and I link them from the OP?

[AfterCrescent]

I think a separate thread used as a catalogue would be good. It makes it easy to be turned into a pdf at some later date. Also, it allows for discussion on this thread and then that one can be a reference for whatever is decided upon, should someone want to use it.

[AstralFire]

Bingo-bango.  It's easier to adapt standard to special than it is special to standard.  And special-standard-special goes without saying.

Agreed. Especially when they don't even really have their variants thought out yet for the pre-existing classes... but that's another complaint.

Not sure I agree here with str to damage.  I can be convinced, so convince me.  Why should air, fire, and water get str to damage on blasts?

Uniformity, really, and you were the one who originally brought the idea up actually - you said Str to Damage wouldn't be discounted. Were you not speaking about the _____ Blast then? I'm not really bothered one way or the other about it, I'm more big on the Str to Attack roll for Fire.

Hows about Wp Finesse for free at 1?  Solves the issue there.  And agreed on the AC/HP thing, except give them Swordsage AC.

The relevant feat in question would be Brutal Throw (was talking about the ranged attack, as I have been.) Giving the Firebenders Brutal Throw and letting that apply to Fire Blast would work for me.

Swordsage AC (option of light armor).  Why give a player's choice on attack?  I'm addressing it here, but it applies in fire too.  d10 HD.

That's how Weapon Finesse works - it's not Dex to Attack, it's Dex OR Str to Attack, much as Brutal Throw is Dex or Str. I was trying to follow the model there.

I'm okay with them both having Swordsage AC as chain shirts are practically clothing (especially the Mithril stuff) and when they're too low-level to get Mithril to avoid ACP, padded works for basically the same as the monk bonus. Sounds good.

Agreed, but a higher bonus.  +2 AC is nothing.  Make it more: +4 or +5 over monk.  +4 allows for just a doubling.  It's still not all that much, but this is actually noticeable.

I was worried that Air having nothing to pump besides Wis (Zen Archery Feat) might make the AC a bit much, but AC is outpaced by Attack Rolls so I guess that's not a big issue.

On a different note, how do you all suggest we organize these changes?  A new thread where we just catalog them?  Or should we just set random posts where we figure out everything and I link them from the OP?

Once we have the Waterbender totally figured out (well, barring any minor last minute "OOH LET'S DO THIS" changes) I say we keep a separate thread for the mostly done works. I have lots of free webspace to host any PDFs, but as a PDF is often taken as a sign of "WE'RE DONE TA-DA!" I think that should be held off on.

[dman11235]

I'll start it later when we actually have something to go on.

Uniformity, really, and you were the one who originally brought the idea up actually - you said Str to Damage wouldn't be discounted. Were you not speaking about the _____ Blast then? I'm not really bothered one way or the other about it, I'm more big on the Str to Attack roll for Fire.

I was referring to melee attacks, which Earth has quite a few built off of it.  Fire has a couple, and so do Air and Water, but mostly Earth.

I'm tired, it's been a long day, so tomorrow I will go over those seeds and see what I think.

[AstralFire]

So is everyone okay with the idea of Brutal Throw applying to Blasts and giving that as a Firebender bonus feat?