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Author Topic: Save this Character the DM gave.  (Read 1876 times)
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Bard
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« on: May 19, 2011, 04:36:46 PM »

Ok the DM DECIDED for no reason to GIVE a character to another player... and won't let him change anything.

It's a Level 3 Human Paladin, Lawful Good follower of Lathander, with:
Str 15, Dex 8, Cos 15, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 18
He can change the feats for level 1 and 3, but can't pick flaws.

And he's in a party with a WIZARD a CLERIC and a Warblade, all optimized.
How do I save this guy and make him in a power house on par with the others?

Also the campaign is more often located inside on in otherwise small places, so Mounted fighting is a no-go.

Manuals allowed are all non-setting, Wotc books, possibly including articles on the website and Dragon Magazine (but he'll need to ask for the last two, so if it's not absolutely necessary it's better to avoid those)
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His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 04:41:31 PM »

If the other 3 are well optimized he will never be able to keep up. Honestly if the DM won't let the guy build the kind of character he wants either kill the character, so he can make a new one, or leave the game. There is no reason someone should be forced into being gimped with a weak class and not be allowed to change anything but their feats.
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 04:47:45 PM »

The Paladin is the Body Guard, of the Wizard.
Although, it is certainly stronger in basic melee,
than the Wiz or the Cleric; but only for now.

Diplomancer is a little iffy, but do-able.
DMM Heighten at level 4 with the necessary feats,
and goodies, but might have to wait 'til level 6.

But this is only if you're trying to keep up with the "Joneses".
You could ignore CO in general, and build a standard Pally
from the guide around here.

Heck you might trick the DM into thinking the Pally
has bigger stones, than for real.
 Wink
Maybe that's the game that's actually being played.
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Sjappo
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 04:54:13 PM »

Revolt.

But seriously, this is not going to work out. I suspect that the DM has a (plot related) reason for forcing this PC on that player. Best solution, have the DM give the bare minimum of requirement to that player. If it is something in the way of "Holy warrior of Lathander" than that is something that can be worked with.

Otherwise maybe, MAYBE, go Paladin -> crusader -> RNV if the RNV can be refluffed to Lathander. Or jump of a cliff.
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Nunkuruji
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 05:02:21 PM »

Corrupt him into a Blackguard to save debuff for your casters

Kill him into a ghost

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Bard
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 05:05:20 PM »

Revolt.
[cut]
Otherwise maybe, MAYBE, go Paladin -> crusader -> RNV if the RNV can be refluffed to Lathander. Or jump of a cliff.

if you mean RKV that was my idea too, after the revolt part Grin
But I was in doubt since it seems that the Crusader relies a lot on AoO, and with that Dex he only has one. (Plus wasted Cha)
I even tried to ask the DM if he could switch Cha and Wis (and get Serenity) but no luck Sad

Also all the party is quite good, Blackguards wouldn't fit that well
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His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
Solo
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 05:08:02 PM »

Smiting Charge and Law Devotion
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 05:12:40 PM by Solo » Logged


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Bauglir
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 05:09:46 PM »

Also all the party is quite good, Blackguards wouldn't fit that well
Gain access to Bluff? Why is that not a Blackguard class skill.
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shandiris
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 05:11:18 PM »

The only reason I see for a DM doing this, is that he is going to throw a plot hook that sucks, but anyone living by a paladin code has to follow.
So try to reason this: drop 1 lvl of paladin and go pal2/sorcerer/abjurant champion.... Your DM get his stupid paladin code. And your guy gets an reasonable character (on par with the warblade)
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Jopustopin
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 05:18:40 PM »

Multiclass into Crusader? 
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JaronK
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 05:21:11 PM »

No chance of eventually retraining this guy into a Cleric/PrC Paladin?  Because that would really help.  If not, at least he could take Crusader levels in the future.

JaronK
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Bard
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 05:37:02 PM »

no chance of retraining anything except feats, plus they already have one cleric anyway (and even moving cha to wis,  getting serenity and going Tashalatora or something, among other things but no luck)

For now going Crusader from there seems the only feasible choice... beside jumping off a cliff.
Logged

His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
Unbeliever
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2011, 05:47:56 PM »

The Sorc Gish plan isn't bad. You've only got 1 extra level of Paladin in there and you can even make that work for you by taking it up to 4 and doing something useful with divine feats/turn attempts. You could also do the old fashioned bard/paladin hybrid with dragon fire - old fashioned since Song of the White Raven but it certainly isn't terrible especially with stuff like Law Animal and/or Protection devotion to back it up. The Warblade and probably the cleric will appreciate the buff. You might also see if you can snag an improved smite mechanic like PF's  - if he's going to be a dick and saddle you with this build he might as well make some of the Paladin's class features do something.

Also along the debuff line of thought can we combine it with Binder? That might work and it would help out the more powerful party members a lot.

But yeah put me in the "revolt" camp too - I've never even had a DM consider doing such a thing.

Edit: aw crap the Bardadin stuff mostly loves in Forgotten Realms books. I officially wish I'll on this DM - here's this build but no you can't use anything that would help it out. To he'll with all these book banning people.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 05:50:36 PM by Unbeliever » Logged
X-Codes
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2011, 06:06:29 PM »

Smiting Charge and Law Devotion
Get reincarnated as a (half-)orc and take the Headlong Rush feat, as well as levels in the Gray Guard PrC.  Sword of the Arcane Order will give you some tricks that could, potentially, put you on-par with the Warblade.

Smite is awesome in that it's second only to Power Attack in the amount of static damage it can add to an attack (although, with Smiting Charge, it greatly out-paces it).  Charging tactics often give multipliers to this damage, and low-level arcane spells will open up opportunities to make those charge attacks.

In other words, if the party just needs to hit something REALLY HARD, you're going to be the best character for the job.
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Ithamar
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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2011, 06:22:51 PM »

I second the idea of Binder.  Then head into Knight of the Sacred Seal ASAP and you should end up halfway decent.
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Faithless tbe Wonder Boy
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2011, 06:35:01 PM »

Yeah, gish seems to be the way to go.  You don't even have to focus much on casting.  Just dip into Sorcerer or Suel Arcanamach, pick up Swiftblade and maybe Abjurant Champion, and have fun.

From perusing the Swiftblade handbook...

Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9

...is pretty straightforward.

If you can't or don't want to go this route, and you can get BoED stuff, Fist of Raziel is better when you've got Cleric levels (9/10 CL ain't half bad for a full BAB class with great class features), but it does provide a significant boost to smiting, along with some other solid bonuses (permanent Magic Circle is actually a pretty decent buff at the level you get it).  

For a pretty vanilla paladin, Paladin 5/Fighter 1/Fist of Raziel 10 with Battle Blessing, Divine Might, etc., won't be as good as the Warblade, but will be solid, and at least have some interesting things it can do.

To make things more interesting, toss in Divine Crusader to actually do something more useful with Fist of Raziel's 9/10 casting.  Paladin 5/Fighter 1/Fist of Raziel 1/Divine Crusader 1/Fist of Raziel +9 sounds pretty good to me.  If you can afford the feats, take DMM (Persist) or DMM (Quicken), and grab a domain with some decent buffs.  Lathander's got the Strength domain, right?  If so that works fine for you.

1- Power Attack, Servant of the Heavens
3- Extend Spell
6- Persist Spell, WF (Heavy Mace)  (Blegh, why does Lathander have such a crappy weapon?  Even the morningstar would be better...)
9- DMM (Persist Spell)

...is probably a decent start.  Or you can use DMM (Quicken) to have it running by level 6, and take Practiced Spellcaster at level 9, which will make your buffs like Magic Vestment that much better.

EDIT: Just noticed that you probably won't get much use out of a mount.  If that's the case, Paladin 4/Fighter 2 might be a better lead-in for the Fist of Raziel builds, since you'll be spending most of your free feats on Divine Metamagic.  But a mount can still be useful even if you're mostly dealing with small places, so YMMV.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 06:41:24 PM by Faithless tbe Wonder Boy » Logged
Havok4
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2011, 07:24:29 PM »

I third the binder idea. Binders can out paladin a paladin in their sleep.
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TheEndIsNear
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2011, 08:01:54 PM »

Just go Ex Paladin 3 and build w/e after. I suggest Ur-Priest. Get bluff soemhow.
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Prime32
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2011, 08:11:43 PM »

If he's really attached to "paladin", ask if he can at least use the PF paladin. It's tier 4 rather than 5, and has options other than a mount. Apart from changing the "channel positive energy" reference to "turn undead" it fits into a 3.5e game with no adjustments.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 08:15:39 PM by Prime32 » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2011, 08:16:04 PM »

And at the very least have him refluff to Paladin of Mystra, so you can at least keep up with the low level spells from the Sor/Wiz list from Sword of the Arcane Order.  Truthfully though, I say trash the pally and then make a proper tier 1 to compete with the other two.
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