What is king in a PHB only, Mundane vs. Mundane, low level campaign?

[Saxony]

Why is magic outlawed, anyway?  The first caster strong enough to oppose the current government could (and probably should) take over!

This is pretty much my thoughts.

The only thing more powerful than a high level caster (other than other high level casters) is deities, and even then it's just because most of them are also high-level casters.

This government sounds like a set of sitting ducks, to me, especially considering there are other places with magic elsewhere in the world.

The spellcasters own the government.

Alchemist Guild is the government. But the common folk don't view alchemy as magic. They view it as... something different, probably due to a slow yet massive propaganda campaign which has increasingly convinced consecutive generations "Alchemy is a different flavor of magic" -> "Alchemy is half magic" -> "Alchemy is not magic" -> "Everyone work their asses off to buy the newest alchemical technology!" over ten centuries (Magic was outlawed 1000 years ago). I'm foreseeing a "Gasp! Spellcasters own everything!" moment for our cute mundane party and a "Gasp! There are other spellcasters?!" moment for any spellcasters in the party. Anyway, every type of magic aside from alchemy has been outlawed, kill on sight type stuff. The alchemist guild also has the backing of a divine spellcasting island (hush hush from the mainlanders).

Basically, anyone who isn't a "Guild member" has their magic outlawed.

You are witnessing the effects of a stereotypical power hungry DnD Wizard winning his campaign 1000 years ago, taking over an entire continent, and then ensuring supremacy by killing all unapproved mages (read: potential threats not culled or shaped to my liking as subordinates) and ensuring commoner horde complacency by giving them alchemical tools. Opiate of the masses and all that. Why the Alchemist Guild hasn't expanded to other continents, I don't know. I assume other spellcasters and a nonaggression treaty.

I think everything truly constructive has been said already.  I agree that this could be a really interesting departure from your standard D&D shenanigans, especially if you avoid going the whole Veiled Alliance "let's bring magic back" type thing.  

But, and it's a big but, I think by being soooo restrictive in the character creation the DM is missing the opportunity to really make this game work.  This campaign is meant to show off and draw attention to the mundanes, both their particular tactics/builds and their particular challenges.  For example, it will resemble more A Song of Ice and Fire b/c you don't have instant magical healing trivially available.  But, at the same time, forcing it to PHB only gets rid of so many of the entertaining mundane tricks -- you're essentially stuck w/ builds that we've probably all played dozens of times.

I agree. I think the DM just wants to keep things simple and manageable. He actually just got asked out of the blue to DM for the next week and has to prepare something from scratch.

Splatbooks will become available after the campaign has started. Like I said, I think he just wants to keep things simple for now.

[Tshern]

Why magic is outlawed is hardly the point at all. If the DM doesn't want it, then that's how it goes.

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, since alchemy is widely accepted...

[nijineko]

maybe the dm could be talked into allowing skill tricks. since they are utterly mundane, quite useful in such a setting.

[Lycanthromancer]

maybe the dm could be talked into allowing skill tricks. since they are utterly mundane, quite useful in such a setting.

ToB would as well.

At least it'd keep the party alive without weeks of recovery after every single battle.

[Saxony]

Why magic is outlawed is hardly the point at all. If the DM doesn't want it, then that's how it goes.

I was simply answering how and why magic could be outlawed.

[Saxony]

maybe the dm could be talked into allowing skill tricks. since they are utterly mundane, quite useful in such a setting.

ToB would as well.

At least it'd keep the party alive without weeks of recovery after every single battle.

Weeks is a mighty exaggeration.

As per PHB, you heal your level in hitpoints for 8 hours of rest. Let's say you're a barbarian with 18 constitution. You get 10.5 hp per HD on average. You heal from 1 hp to full hp in 11 days no matter many total hitpoints you have. Half that if you're resting 24/7. Halve both those figures if you have someone with a decent Heal check providing long term care to you. A barbarian with 18 constitution heals from 1 hp to full hp in 3 days with 24/7 rest a heal check providing long term care.

As a barbarian with 18 constitution is the pinnacle of hp sponges in a core only game (or damn close), I would say a week is the average healing time with regards to hitpoints.

You have me on diseases, though I think you were particularly talking about straight HP recovery taking weeks after every battle. In which case, you are wrong. If you're dealing with house rules gimping beat sticks, I feel for you, I really do. Our group gets [level + con] hp back every night even with watches or ambushes.

[snakeman830]

Don't forget the ability damage you take from poisons (which you actually have to worry about).  That will take quite a while to heal if you end up taking more than one dose.

[Saxony]

Don't forget the ability damage you take from poisons (which you actually have to worry about).  That will take quite a while to heal if you end up taking more than one dose.

Yeah, diseases and poisons.

Question: How does the recommendation for ranger change if all spell casting is traded for buffing animal companion to that of a druid?

[Solo]

Well, that and allowing for Wildshape would be nice.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't forget the ability damage you take from poisons (which you actually have to worry about).  That will take quite a while to heal if you end up taking more than one dose.

Yeah, diseases and poisons.

Question: How does the recommendation for ranger change if all spell casting is traded for buffing animal companion to that of a druid?

Still better off as a druid, because the fighting styles are crap. You're better off two-handing or using rogue for ranged.

[Saxony]

Don't forget the ability damage you take from poisons (which you actually have to worry about).  That will take quite a while to heal if you end up taking more than one dose.

Yeah, diseases and poisons.

Question: How does the recommendation for ranger change if all spell casting is traded for buffing animal companion to that of a druid?

Still better off as a druid, because the fighting styles are crap. You're better off two-handing or using rogue for ranged.

Agreed except for following: Why is rogue better for ranged? Lower BAB, no flanking for easy sneak attack.

[borsniel]

read the topic and noticed one thing missing. 1sp = 1 pint of oil. fire is your friend especially in these low magic games. NO creature will have fire Resistance your first few levels and if you go out on a limb and by barrels of oil then talk with your dm about making flaming arrows you can have strong party members throw them or roll them into enemies. from experience id say the build doesn't matter as much as cold hard cash does in this game. one feat id would propose would be skill focus craft, build your shit cheaper, if your an archer get that mwk. composite long bow early, if your a rouge, get mwk. tools early, ect. but yha i love these types of games cause they don't come down to just, "what spell does the wizard have that will make this problem go away". good luck with your game.

[Amechra]

The core of your equipment list is the following:

- one (1) 10'-Pole
- fifty feet (50') of hemp/silk rope
- One dozen (12) pitons
- Ten (10) pieces of chalk

Total cost- 3gp 4sp if hemp is chosen, 12gp 4sp if silk is chosen.

Utility- If you can't solve practically ALL of your problems with the above, you need a little more practice as an adventurer.

The above receives NO ARGUMENT.

[borsniel]

The core of your equipment list is the following:

- one (1) 10'-Pole
- fifty feet (50') of hemp/silk rope
- One dozen (12) pitons
- Ten (10) pieces of chalk

Total cost- 3gp 4sp if hemp is chosen, 12gp 4sp if silk is chosen.

Utility- If you can't solve practically ALL of your problems with the above, you need a little more practice as an adventurer.

The above receives NO ARGUMENT.

agreed entirely.

[Saxony]

Not sure how the chalk comes into play.

And lay some creative uses of the other three on me. I don't buy near omnipotent problem solving ability.

Also, borsniel, thanks for the oil suggestion. 1 gallon of oil will be certainly be acquired and I'll talk to my DM about how well I could use barrels of oil. Unfortunately, crafting seems very time intensive.

[borsniel]

if you got down time crafting is worth it. here are some ways other items can be used:

chalk: mark things, halls you've traveled through directions on a map, what is in said barrel (don't want to shoot the barrel of horse feed with fire)

rope: EVERYONE needs rope, i also suggest a grappling hook. you come to a cliff. have a skill monkey climb up using the grappling hook, pitons and rope. next have the skill monkey aid another with helping a strong fighter climb up, tie rope around a person in heavy armor, have fighter pull him up, rinse and repeat. now only one or two people need climb ranks. tie up a villain, barricade a door, there's tons you can do.

pitons: basically aid with rope stuff but can be sued for all kinds of stuff as well. poking a hole in a barrel of oil and attaching a oil soaked rope gives a nice fuse.

ten foot pole: the best tool ever. every one should have these. some one gets hurt use 2 of them and a bed roll to make a stretcher, ect. the list would go on forever.

in low level low magic games you have to do a lot more problem solving. having the right tools and some imagination can tip the balance in your favor more often than you think.

[Amechra]

Uses for chalk (short version):
-Throw it as a distraction.
-Use it to navigate a maze.
-Mark an object to keep track of it.
-Write messages to people (so much cheaper than ink)
-Draw out tactical plans.
-GRAFFITI!

Uses for a 10' pole (short version):
-Activating traps from a range.
-Spanning small chasms.
-Centerpiece of a shelter.
-Open latches on windows/doors from 10' away.
-Make a bindle stick.
-Add another to make a stretcher in conjunction with the rope.
-Leverage. Lots of it.
-Cut in half to make stilts.

Uses for rope (short version):
-Securing one thing to something else.
-Trussing up a villain.
-Hoisting objects.
-Helps you climb.
-Can be converted into a harness or bag in a pinch, if your Use Rope check is decent.
-Rappel/belay down cliffs.
-Link everyone together while on unstable terrain (allows characters to catch each-other's fall.)
-Hitch your mount/pack animals.
-Noose, in case you need to execute someone/leave them as a warning.

Uses for pitons (Short version)
-Improvised daggers.
-Nail stuff down. They are quite sharp.
-Tie them to the rope right, and BAM! Improvised grappling hook.
-Help you climb (stab them into walls.)
-Leave as markers.

There, at least 5 things each can do, and that's just off the top of my head. Of course, you should have at least one of those "core" equipment sets for each party member, for maximum efficacy.

[Faithless tbe Wonder Boy]

Since alchemy is such a big focus in the campaign, why not play a character who utilizes it?  Crafting takes some time, sure, but if you're crafting cheap items with a really good craft check, it's pretty quick.  And if there's no magical healing, there's going to be more downtime than usual anyhow.

A rogue that crafts acid, alchemists' fire, and tanglefoot bags will essentially be a poor man's warlock - ranged touch plus sneak attack damage starts out as a crappier eldritch blast (better damage but requires the opponent to be flat-footed), but ends up being better thanks to iteratives, Rapid Shot, etc.  Also, tanglefoot bags might be my single favorite item.  Smokesticks aren't bad either, if you're playing in a game where there's no wizard to actually just cast Fog Cloud.

You need to be a spellcaster to craft alchemical items, but a one-level dip can fix that for you.  They've all got various pros and cons...

• BARD gives you excellent skills and a cheap 1/day buff.  If you're a gnome, this is your only option for dipping.
• DRUID gives you an animal companion, which will be stronger than you at the lowest levels, although it'll quickly become outclassed.  You also get Spot/Listen as class skills, and some minor healing to use when you're alone.
• CLERIC gives you domain access; for a rogue I'd go Luck and Travel - a free re-roll and one round of Freedom of Movement a day is nothing to sneeze at.  Like the Druid, you can secretly do some minor healing when nobody's looking.
• WIZARD/SORCERER gets a familiar, which is pretty amazing for a skill-monkey.  Unlike the animal companion, whose progression is level based, your familiar bases its hit points and skills off of your own totals, so that's pretty fun.  Pick up a couple of utility spells that you can cast in secret.
• ASSASSIN will still progress most of your skills and your sneak damage, and is flavorful to boot - but you have to be evil, and can't start until level 6.

A gnome with a 16 intelligence and masterwork tools gets a +11 bonus to crafting at first level, meaning you succeed on making acid with a four or higher.  By second level, if you can get someone to assist you, you're automatically succeeding, and usually by enough that you can reduce the time it takes considerably as well.

Honestly, there's way more optimized things you could do, but this could still be fun.  I just wanted to think of something to tie in with alchemy, and this is all I could come up with in a core-only game.  If I weren't doing this, or the secret druid, I'd probably just play an archer, most likely Rogue/Shadowdancer.  Maybe see if the DM would be willing to allow the wilderness rogue variant from UA, which would give you Handle Animal as a class skill.

[Lycanthromancer]

You cannot make alchemic items unless you're a spellcaster.

One more reason to become a bard in this game.