How do you tell a player their character SUCKS?

[SneeR]

I am running a high-powered gestalt campaign. You can offer the souls of your defeated enemies to buy yourself demonic powers. And you get to trade out class skills of one class for another (so a rogue could make Gather Information CC and make Ride a class skill) allowing better skill-point efficiency.

So far, everyone has done a good job with their characters. Though they may not have extremely powerful builds, they know what character concepts they are shooting for, and they understand the mechanics of the game enough to comppetenly pursue those concepts.

My problem is that a new player I just recently recruited to fill out the 3-man party has entered with a fully incompetent build!

Here are the characters so far:

Fighter 4//Swordsage 4: focused on 2WF and DEX/WIS synergy in his abilities. EXTREMELY competent CO.

Cleric 4//Dragon Shaman 4: focused on breath-weapons and general coolness (rather than power) with the capability to fly, shoot acid lines, and fire cones.

Monk 4//Ardent 4: While definitely the worst CO, he knows an interesting concept when he sees it. He has tried to mix too many cool ideas, though, but he fills out other roles rather nicely. Secondary healer/blaster/secondary melee/secondary battlefield controller.

As you can see, the party is missing arcane magic and a face. When one of my friends got back into D&D recently, I immediately knew he would be a wealth of RP and social potential based off his performance in other games.

Here is what he proposed: Warmage 4//Wildshape variant Ranger 4.
I know some of you are thinking, "The warmage side sucks, and will steal actions away from the Ranger side!"
Well, what I thought was, "Hey, CHA synergy! He will trade out the ranger class skills for social skills, and his highest stat should be CHA, followed by WIS and CON! Party face!" He can make his character more powerful by offering souls anyways.

Well, he fell into the noob trap that is Warmage Edge , and completely forgot that his physical stats are replaced during Wild Shape .
This is him:
STR: 14
DEX: 18
CON 16
INT: 16
WIS: 9
CHA: 13
Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting

So, things take 3 points more damage from Edge, but always make their saves. He wields a rapier, oftens hits, but does FAR less damage than the two rapiers that the fighter//swordsage uses.

Though he did get social skills, there were no social encounters in the first session he was in--he did not take the chance when it was given. He hates the player of the monk//ardent, and now his character sucks. He can't compete even with the thinspread monk//ardent!!!

How do I tell him his character is fundamentally a failure without changing stats and tactics without him leaving my group!? I really want him to play, but I fear too many disappointments in a row all due to his own failings (not that he recognized why he was not having much fun) will push him away so he has no desire to participate.
Any advice?

[bkdubs123]

Why didn't you tell him that his character wasn't up to the power level of the game you wanted to run BEFORE the game started? There's not a lot you can do now that the game HAS started, other than to take him aside, explain to him that the game is supposed to be HIGH-powered and that his character just is not going to cut the mustard. At that point offer to let him rebuild the character to be more powerful, to let him build an entirely new character, or to simply quit. That's really the only option I can imagine having any success.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

At that point offer to let him rebuild the character to be more powerful, to let him build an entirely new character, or to simply quit.

And offer your help with those two first options, if this players CO abilities aren't up to par.

[Shiki]

Why didn't you tell him that his character wasn't up to the power level of the game you wanted to run BEFORE the game started? There's not a lot you can do now that the game HAS started, other than to take him aside, explain to him that the game is supposed to be HIGH-powered and that his character just is not going to cut the mustard. At that point offer to let him rebuild the character to be more powerful, to let him build an entirely new character, or to simply quit. That's really the only option I can imagine having any success.

This, I guess.

[E-mail]

I would let him have his weaksauce character for as long as he could keep it alive, but that won't be long. When the inevitable happens, offer to help him make a stronger replacement character.

[Empirate]

This isn't a CO problem, but a communication problem. And mostly from your side, I'm sorry to say. First off, if CO plays such a big role in your campaign, you should make sure everybody understands this beforehand, as others have said. Also, if at your table fun is to a large degree derived from character power/versatility/general weightpulling, you should make sure everybody at the table has a chance to take part in this - which again involves making sure nobody brings an incompetent character.

But that's spilled milk, so let's move on. What you can do now is what you can always do: talk to the player, and/or talk to all the players. Tone matters when you do this.

"Bruce, your character sucks some shrivelled, nasty, hairy, pus-infected goat's balls and we all know it. Listen up, here's how you do a competent character!" - Wrong Way To Say It

"Bruce, it seems to me you're not having as much fun as you should. Am I doing everything right DMing? Do the other guys step on your toes? Or do you... maybe... just maybe... feel your character is just not competent enough? We can still change it, you know? Tell me about your problems, I'm here to listen and helpt out!" - Right Way To Say It


It's always much, much better to ask people about their side of the story before giving them the verdict that they suck. Maybe your Bruce has a plan in mind (some PrC that's just too good to pass up, or whatever), or maybe he really though doing damage is a good thing for a caster to do. Either way, asking why he made the choices he did, then offering to let him change a few things if he wants is much, much better - less dictatorial, less I-know-better-than-you, less high-and-mighty - than just starting a conversation to let him know he sucks. Offer advice if he asks it, don't smother him in your own CO knowledge.

BTW: if he persists, let him, it's his (in-game) funeral.

Let us know how it went.

[SneeR]

Wow, THANK YOU, Empirate. Yeah, I feel terrible that I didn't check his sheet out before the game, it just never occured to me. He was competent enough in all the other games!

But I am glad you told me that. I was go to essentially say, "Your character sucks. Do you feel it in play? Yeah, that's because it sucks."

He is so touchy that that is the advice I needed--he might have left. Why do simple things always pass over my head?
I'll talk to him stoday and see what happens. Maybe I'll refer him to the Warmage handbook in MinMax It!

[Empirate]

You're welcome. 


Seriously, though: you know, over the years, there have been posts that read more or less similar to yours, and the posters never even considered basic friendliness etc. as a possible reaction. So I was pointing that out. Did that really stress you out so much? Sorry for that, I guess? Tone (which is important etc.) doesn't carry that well in pure text messages. Yours was hard to miss, but it seems you missed mine, which was intended to be helpful.

You're welcome to ignore unnecessary advice, of course. Just don't get all worked up over it, all right?

[skydragonknight]

One thing I used to do when I DMed was give the players a session or two with their characters and then give them a chance to make any adjustments they want to make before their characters became "locked in."
Worked out pretty well since the minor mistakes could be blamed on time crunch rather than ineptitude and overlapping characters had the chance to work out their party roles and maybe swap a few things for less overlap.

[SneeR]

So, it turns out the player of the poor PC actually delegated the building of his PC to the player of the cleric/dragon shaman. That guy thought that warmages were INT-based, and forgot that turning into a bear did something besides give you natural attacks.

Neither of them cared enough to double check with the other or the book.
The player decided to throw out the character and restart from scratch.

I have learned to always make sure I have an updated copy of everyone's character sheets at all times.
Wow, what a fiasco.

I'm pretty sure that the player has no interest in character creation. He has asked me to essentially build him a character to play.
So, anyone know some good directions for a warmage//wildshape ranger? I was thinking of war shaper and master of many forms for one side, and a dip into sand shaper/mindebender (for mindsight) and jumping straight into Rainbow Servant.

I'm thinking Versatile Spellcaster, Extra Slot, and Extra Spell as feats.
They can buy extra feats occasionally, so assume maybe 3 extra to work with.

[skydragonknight]

A monk dip with ascetic mage feat would be nifty. The whole "kung-fu bear" effect on top of Cha (his casting stat) to AC.

[SneeR]

Where is ascetic mage? I've never heard of it. Do you mean VoP?

[veekie]

Complete Adventurer IIRC.
Basically it's a feat for Monk/Sorcs which switches the AC bonus to Cha.

[Shadeseraph]

Arcane Strike would be nifty too. Put those warmage spells to an use while wild shaped and rampaging (Arcane Strike + pouncing Fleshraker = fun). And, well, swift hunter is great for any ranger. It requires three scout levels, but if he takes them after the 6 first ranger levels he should have enoguh wild shape for the day.

On the higher levels, Wyrm Wizard for Arcane Spellsurge should help him with action economy.

Just my 10 cp.

[SneeR]

So, his levels are pretty busy. A dip into monk is just tooo much.

Elven Sub Ranger 1/Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 4//Warmage 4/Sand Shaper 1/ Rainbow Servant.

Definite Feats: Natural Spellcaster, Versatile Spellcaster, Alertness (for MoMF)

Possible Feats: Arcane Spellstrike, Extra Spell

I am unsure whether Sand Shaper is a good idea. It will take 1 level longer to reach that oh-so-delectable Rainbow Servant Level 10, but it will provide a huge number of spells to his warmage list. Of course, waiting until level 7 to get the Rainbow Servant Good Domain will provide a few spells, as will the Extra Spell feat, but Sand Shaper is Level 5. Is sooner better? Not sure.

Also, what order should he take Warshaper and Master of Many forms in? I know that he will take MoMF as soon as possible so he can get another wildshape and talk while there, then maybe another level so he can turn into a Large bear, but should he start Warshaper then or after getting that lovely variability that MoMF provides?
That question I suppose depends entirely upon his preference for variability or combat focus, but what do you CO dudes think about it?

[skydragonknight]

Also, what order should he take Warshaper and Master of Many forms in? I know that he will take MoMF as soon as possible so he can get another wildshape and talk while there, then maybe another level so he can turn into a Large bear, but should he start Warshaper then or after getting that lovely variability that MoMF provides?
That question I suppose depends entirely upon his preference for variability or combat focus, but what do you CO dudes think about it?

Get to MoMF 7 before even thinking about Warshaper levels. The first two Warshaper levels may be worth delaying the last levels of MoMF...it's a trade of power vs versatility, so basically your choice.

Sand Shaper is outside my range of expertise.

[Yitzi]

I'd say mention to him (in private) that you've noticed his character isn't being all that effective and you don't mind if he redoes it.  Then mention that in the past he's done well with the social aspect and might want to do something that plays to those strengths.  The point is to emphasize not how bad it is but how good it could be.

Then just make sure to include opportunities to use it (if he's good at puzzles requiring IC thinking include those too).  If the others are into CO you probably won't have to keep his abilities under control...but if he's good enough you very well might.

If he's too thin-skinned for that and the campaign allows, an alternative (if the campaign allows) would be to first show his potential by forcing a social encounter (a villian is trying to stir up popular opinion against the party) and letting him win that one for the party.  Then suggest that maybe a higher CHA score would make him better at that sort of thing and you're willing to let him redistribute his ability scores now that he's got a better idea of how his character plays.

And if he wants to keep a good INT, nothing wrong with that...high INT allows for easier roleplaying of a well-played face; from your sig I can tell you understand the potential power in that (if it gets too overpowered even for this campaign, remember that circumstance modifiers and opposed rolls are your friend.)

[SneeR]

Yitzi, it is not a long thread. You should read what has been said. The problem has been resolved.
However, thank you for your advise. Do you have any build advise? I would love to hear what you have to say on that!

[Yitzi]

Yitzi, it is not a long thread. You should read what has been said. The problem has been resolved.

Whoops...I must have missed that one.

However, thank you for your advise. Do you have any build advise? I would love to hear what you have to say on that!

That, not so much.  Builds are not my strong point, especially when more sources are allowed than the 4 (PHB, DMG, MM, SRD) I have access to.  I do pretty decently when those are the only 4 and it's not an optimization-heavy area, but other than that I have a minimal amount.

Basically, my building approaches come in 3 categories: Synergy-based (e.g. make as much dependent on CHA as possible and then pump it for all it's worth.  Or DEX, or WIS, or CON.  The other two are quite a bit harder, but may be doable.  It can also be done with things other than ability scores, such as "not wearing armor".), feature-based (find a cool class feature or racial feature and make the most out of it; examples of this would be the half-gold-dragon troll, or the arcane trickster who, at high levels, uses improved invisibility plus chill touch to hit with several sneak attacks per round (and vs. touch flatfooted AC, chances are they're all hits) at a minimum of spell use (perhaps leaving the rest for utility spells)), or tactics-based (combat maneuver specialist, polymorpher, etc.)