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Author Topic: Creating 'Legendary Fighter', competition, are there prizes?  (Read 12688 times)
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #220 on: July 06, 2011, 04:05:32 AM »

Well here's what the op says.
...and here's what we've added our selves for limits after discussions.
PHB races only
No templates
No ToB prestige
Maximum of four classes

32pt 1:1 buy

After having read the 'make a fighter t3' thread for a while I am wondering what can be made of the concept of a melee monster, a Conan for want of a better word. Does it have to be a Gish, or are there other options that could fulfill this role?

Quote
For classes so far I considered some variation of the below, perhaps using warblade over Crusader:
Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Warblade 4 / Deep Warden 2 / Warblade 12 / Crusader 1

IL10 Crusader
IL17 Warblade
Pounce
Con to AC

No matter how I look at it though, it just can't compete with joe schmoe gish. If only there was a way to get into Illithid Slayer sooner...
 

Quote
SRD races only
Level 12 is the challenge (However, a snapshot at 6, and a snapshot (build only) at 20 will be considered as well)
No templates
No ToB prestige
Maximum of four classes
32pt buy standard
No custom magic items.
No special Cohorts (I.e. No leadership, No wild cohort feat, Rangers, Pally's, psycrystals, and familiars, still get to play this game though ubermount go...)
No going infinite or nigh infinite.
No manifester Arrows/Item based recharges (If you want to recharge you have to recharge via feats etc)
No rebuilding or retraining.
No Psychic reformation.
Because the Beardfist is going to be involved it'd be awesome if you provide a backgroud legend for you Char in a spoiler.
No flaws, traits, elder evils...etc. (Bonus feats from any exploit you  might think of is also disregarded)
No fucking Umd/Upd
No item familiars...
How's that sound?

Edit: Also there are some Full caster prc gish at the begining of the thread... okay noted. Anything that isn't "Fullcaster/Prc/Prc" Bab 16 9th level spells. Yes those are awesome, but whatelse ya got?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:19:54 AM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Kajhera
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« Reply #221 on: July 06, 2011, 09:48:55 AM »

Item Familiar's still fair game? Neat. I may have to try an entry or two.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #222 on: July 06, 2011, 10:19:28 AM »

Item Familiar's still fair game? Neat. I may have to try an entry or two.
Nope. The point is to get the bulk of your power from your class race, NOT your items.
So while bracers of archery, or even Ki straps, would be allowed, anything more powerful
your standard "I buff my melee powers with this" are kinda out.
(Not to say you can't buy lots of potions, or healing belts, or whatever 24 attument rule in effect)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 10:23:01 AM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Kajhera
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« Reply #223 on: July 06, 2011, 10:20:58 AM »

Item Familiar's still fair game? Neat. I may have to try an entry or two.
Nope.
Well, there goes my plan to submit a Truenamer gish.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #224 on: July 06, 2011, 11:22:10 AM »

Item Familiar's still fair game? Neat. I may have to try an entry or two.
Nope.
Well, there goes my plan to submit a Truenamer gish.
You're a bastard for even trying.  Clap
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snakeman830
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« Reply #225 on: July 06, 2011, 11:42:58 AM »

Okay, here's the basics on what I have.  These are surprisingly pretty flexible on wealth.

Fisty McFlingerton:

Dwarf Monk.  Uses Holy Strike ACF from Complete Warrior and Hand and Foot Mastery (since it's almost free for this) from the SRD.  Whether LG or LE, doesn't change much.

Perks: Uses no setting-specific, third party, or even multiclassing.  Capatalizes on Monk class features.

Weaknesses: At all levels is a social klutz.  Best for him to just remain silent when talking is necessary.

Base ability scores (before racial adjustments)
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int:10
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

As level-ups occour, Str will be boosted.

Level 6:
Feats:
(1) Telepathic Affinity (CPsi)
Stunning Fist (Monk bonus)
Deflect Arrows (Monk bonus)
(3)Darkstalker
(6)Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
Improved Trip (Monk bonus)

Skills:
Balance: 9 ranks (total mod: +12)
Hide: 5 ranks (total mod: +6)
Listen: 9 ranks (total mod: +12)
Spot: 9 ranks (total mod: +12)
Tumble: 4 ranks (total mod: +5)

Equipment of note: Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1) (2,600gp), Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Cash remaining: 8,400gp

At this point, not too impressive.  He works as a melee mook, dealing 2d6+4 a hit, can stun a few times per day, and trip.  Now, interestingly, even if he fails to trip, he is likely to not be tripped in return, since his modifier on resisting that is +17.  If he succeeds, then hey, free attack that's more likely to hit.  Immune to disease by this point (not that it's huge, but it occasionally comes in handy).  Also, overcomes DR as Good or Evil, Magic, and Bludgeoning.  Has extra save bonuses to a myriad of effects that are important (poison, enchantment, all spells and spell-likes).  Also moves at 40ft, so he can be more mobile than most.  His best move during combat is to charge and trip instead of trying to Flurry.  However, with most of his wealth remaining, he can probably pull something interesting.

For utility purposes, he can scout okay.  Special senses don't auo-detect him and he has good Spot and Listen.  With luck, he can notice traps built into stone.  While it's a long shot, the alternative is never noticing them until they go off.  It doesn't take an action on his part either.  He can use his one psi-like per day to either gather more information (Detect Psionics) or relay information to a party member (Mindlink)

Level 12:
Feats:
(9)Knock-Down
(12)Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)

Skills:
Balance: 9 ranks (total mod: +14)
Hide: 15 ranks (total mod:+16)
Listen: 15 ranks (total mod: +20)
Move Silently: 5 ranks (total mod: +6)
Spot: 15 ranks (total mod: +20)
Tumble: 5 ranks (total mod: +6)

Equipment of note: +4 Str item (16,000),+4 Wis item (16,000), Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Throwing, Seeking) (18,600), Tooth of Lejare (21,600), Handy haversack (2,000), Throwing Gauntlets (2,000)

cash remaining: 11,800gp

Now things are more interesting.  He has 4 attacks per round an no longer has incentive to walk anywhere.  As an attack action, he can fling himself up to 200ft.  On top of that, he outright ignore miss chances and, hilariously, can end up attacking invisible people in a square he was trying to move to without meaning to.  He can use his first attack to fling himself into melee range, second and third to attack+Trip (if he deals 10 or more damage, which he should with base damage of 3d6+9 and overcoming most DR).  Successful trips net him more attacks.  His last attack he uses to fling himself back to safety where he relies on distance and Deflect Arrows to protect him.  His Stunning Fist save DC is falling a bit behind (only DC 21 right now), but hey, it's a free possibility of a nasty debuff 1/round.

He also has a 1/encounter 50ft teleport as a standard action.  This is handy for getting out of grapples, getting out of a barred Forcecage, or the like.  He also now has immunity to poison, which is a pretty useful one.  1/day, he can Dimension Door up to 640ft.  Best used as an emergency escape.

Level 20:

Feats:
(15) Martial Stance (Child of Shadows)
(18) Snap Kick

Skills:
Balance: 9 ranks
Hide: 23 ranks
Listen: 23 ranks
Move Silently: 5 ranks
Spot: 23 ranks
Tumble: 18 ranks

Equipment of note: +6 Str item (36,000), +6 Dex item (36,000), +6 Wis item (36,000), +6 Con item (36,000), Tooth of Lejare (21,600), Handy haversack (2,000), Gauntlets of Throwing (2,000), Horizon Goggles (8,000), Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Throwing, Seeking, Distance, Suppression, Sizing, Shadow Hand, Ghost Touch, Collision)(205,600), Greater Crystal of Adamant Weaponry (3,400), Manual of Gainful Excersie +5 (read)(137,500)
Cash remaining: 235,900g

up to 6 attacks per round, any of which can send him flying up to 400ft.  That's up to 2,400 feet travelled as a full-round action (272.72 miles per hour Tongue)  So long as he moves at least 10ft, he gains a 20% miss chance that True Seeing can't even penetrate RAW.  He can change size as a swift action, going anywhere from Fine to Colossal.  His attack bonus ranges from +42 (at Fine size) to 26 (at Colossal), but his damage ranges from 2d6+21 (fine) to 16d8+21 (colossal).  Since he has no other use for Swift actions, he chooses each round what size is best to be.  Every attack carries a targetted Dispel Psionics (+15 bonus on the check to dispel), making him a surprisingly good debuffer, capable of stripping spells/powers or suppressing magic/psionic items.  Finally, he counts as Corporeal or Incorporeal, whichever he finds most advantegous, at any given time.  This, of course, has stupid amounts of use from making all of his attacks Incorporeal Touch Attacks to letting him ignore Move Silently when scouting (he doesn't wish to be heard, so he can't be).  Oh, and he has Hardness 10.  His DR only comes into play against mundane, admantine weapons (and you know how often that ever comes up at level 20?)

Speaking of Scouting, he now has plenty of options on that.  He can float through solid objects and listen well (don't forget the +4 bonus he gets to Listen for being inside a solid object), can happily turn Ethereal if he likes for 20 rounds/day (and thus be completely undetectable by the vast majority of enemies while still being able to see them).  He can also understand perfectly what is being said by anything.  If he finds a trap built into stone (still a crapshoot, but it happens), he can frequently smash it (since his unarmed strikes count as admantine for ignoring hardness).

Oh yeah, and he probably took a break from adventuring for a few years, letting those age bonuses rack up after 17 Tongue  He may have a few more skill points to spend.

Now, since all three points still have plenty of gold left over, there is naturally a fair bit of improvement that can be done with each build.  Is thi super-powerful?  No, but he should be able to contribute in most parties.  He's not meant to stand around and deal damage (I guess he can, though), he's meant to fly around the battlefield and disrupt/debuff opponents.  While the bulk of his power may come from items, these items are all similarly useful because of the Monk's class features.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #226 on: July 06, 2011, 11:54:36 AM »

No ToB PrCs? What the hell else would a Warblade take? *grumble grumble*.

Srsly though, just tossing this out so you'll get a chance to ban it before it's fully built.

Code:
Human Desecrated Necropoliton Arcane Unarmed Swordsage 5 / Swiftblade 6 / Shiba Protector 1
Abilities: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 8 Con, 14 Int, 16+3 Wis, 8 Cha.
Feats: Dodge[sup]H[/sup], Mobility[sup]1st[/sup], Weapon Focus(unarmed strike)[sup]B[/sup] Battle Jump[sup]3rd[/sup], Alertness[sup]6th[/sup], Combat Expertise[sup]9th[/sup], Iron Will[sup]12th[/sup].

Melee: +9 BAB & +7* from scores before items, 107.5 HP, Mithreal Medium Armor & +6 for AC, blah blah blah.
Gish: Counting full advancement as full advancement (not poorly misinterpreted 1&1/2) it has 10.5 caster levels for 5th level spells.
Spells: Very limited, but has Bite Of The Something, Polymorph and Haste and bought a Runestaff & Divinestaff so suck it.
*+7 useful? 18 str + 2 racial + 3 level = 22, or +7. For 16k a pure str build gets a +8 mod, for 8k mine gets a +9 mod.
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
Kajhera
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« Reply #227 on: July 06, 2011, 11:58:13 AM »

This one's easy: No templates.  Tongue
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #228 on: July 06, 2011, 12:07:52 PM »

...uhm... I didn't actually think anyone was gonna do this. You determined bastards  Shake fist!

Alright then...
Fisty McFlingerton!
You're certainly party useful, and the money adds up correctly. (Wow.)
There's not questionable b.s. In the build. (Double wow)
I'm going to fine tooth comb it though. Stand by.

How do you think you fare agaisnt the diabolocal assorment of critters from the Cr 12 Challenge post?
You don't have to defeat them to prove your worth or anything but it certainly demo's what you can do in a live fire exercize.

As for Justin Vorhees (jasons lil bro) I didn't come up with that part its in the op.
Though man, I really agree when I look at your build. ... desecrated Nercopolitian (grumble grumble)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:30:16 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Nachofan99
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« Reply #229 on: July 06, 2011, 12:10:13 PM »

Snakeman,

The Monk build is inherently reasonable and I believe would be allowed in many campaigns.  Additionally, it shows off Monk class features and does not devolve into other things.  Very solid.  His 200 ft "ranged attack+movement" is a solid answer to lots of situations a normal Monk would just be dead weight.  Another thing of note is that all your saves are "decent" so you do not have a GLARING weakness in that regard.

Does it kill Wizards in the surprise round who are always Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  No, but that kind of garbage sees very little legitimate play.  Is it the strongest possible build that would exist in a normal game?  No, but it's at least very solid.  At 6th level, I can see you're not too great but you rapidly improve from that point forward.  At the least you're a decent scout, mostly due to Darkstalker, and a secondary melee combatant.  Your role in a party would be to provide flank bonuses to other melee and to trip to help them win more.  

At 12th you come into your own pretty solidly.  You will downright confuse and beat people to death moving in and out of range.  Even though 3d6+9 is not something to write home about, 3d6+9 3-4 times per round ignoring most DR is "enough".  Don't forget that you could pay for a permanent enlarge person effect and it's only a little over 9,000g I believe and available in core.  That would give you reach, although you don't even need it, but would also improve your damage considerably.

Think about how legitimately powerful this Monk is if they suddenly find themselves naked and alone in the dark?  After an entire day of adventuring, no matter how many or few encounters, this Monk is just as capable.

Deflect Arrows is also a really decent ability that I feel is undeservingly considered underpowered.  Consider it with the range on your melee strike; most people will only be able to target you from range until you "close", and Deflect Arrows neatly "solves" that.

At 20th level the entire game has been broken for several levels so yeah, not too much to comment on there.

Neat, solid build.  I think it's "comparable" to Janus.  
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #230 on: July 06, 2011, 12:20:57 PM »

No wait... I'm missing something.   Big Eyes
Are you using your Throwing Gauntlets to "Fling" yourself at the enemies?
If so, then shennanigans! WHY!
They would just seriously Fly off your hands when you tried to throw them.

Nachofan99
Quote
Does it kill Wizards in the surprise round who are always Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  No, but that kind of garbage sees very little legitimate play.
Shit comments like that...  Rolls Eyes
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:24:22 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #231 on: July 06, 2011, 12:50:33 PM »

Quote
Does it kill Wizards in the surprise round who are always Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  No, but that kind of garbage sees very little legitimate play.
Shit comments like that...  Rolls Eyes
I just realized I've never played a legitimate D&D game. Well that bites. Sad
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #232 on: July 06, 2011, 12:52:49 PM »

No wait... I'm missing something.   Big Eyes
Are you using your Throwing Gauntlets to "Fling" yourself at the enemies?
If so, then shennanigans! WHY!
They would just seriously Fly off your hands when you tried to throw them.
It's the necklace of natural attacks that does that.  You're flinging your monk's unarmed strike, which happens to be your body.

Also, I helped with a lot of this, so I get at least partial credit. Big Grin

Though it's probably a good thing that he decided not to include the Manyfanged enhancement (per the MIC) like I suggested (though it wouldn't exactly be broken by the time you get it).
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #233 on: July 06, 2011, 01:06:18 PM »

Quote
It's the necklace of natural attacks that do that.  You're flinging your monk's unarmed strike, which happens to be your body
... okay... break down how that works for me. It seems really like an easy "fuck no" but maybe you can do that
raw, and I'm not aware of it (happens sometimes, Limited Omniscience is well... limited)
Wait... (massages his temples)

Quote
Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species): The enhancement bonus on this necklace is applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality applied to this necklace also applies to those natural weapons. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus as well as the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer's natural weapons
.
You were in a thread about this over at gitp a year or so ago. . .


LOL Fucking bravo man.  Clap  
  Bow Bow Bow Bow

That shit is a cheesy exploit but right up there with ole' trouser fang, its too good and raw to seriously complain about.
You guy op-fu knows no bounds. So does the unarmed swordsage do it better?


« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 01:15:05 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Nachofan99
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« Reply #234 on: July 06, 2011, 01:30:42 PM »

I just realized I've never played a legitimate D&D game. Well that bites. Sad

So then you ALWAYS play in D&D games where Wizards are Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  I feel bad for you, you're really missing out on the other 99% that D&D 3rd has to offer.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #235 on: July 06, 2011, 01:39:29 PM »

I just realized I've never played a legitimate D&D game. Well that bites. Sad

So then you ALWAYS play in D&D games where Wizards are Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  I feel bad for you, you're really missing out on the other 99% that D&D 3rd has to offer.
... and we basically dont feel bad that you're being a self-righteous jackass. Looloo
 You likely have to be that way all day long, or maybe we have the special privlege to see you conduct yourself in this form, I don't know. What I do know (and what I'm not sure you know) is that you're baiting people who play that way.
 You're opinion is doesn't mean shit to the rest of us really so while I personally may not deal with Dire Toroises in my games, you being condescending transends barriers of "Please gtfo".
There's no such thing as "legitimate" games of D&D, applying your qualifiers to the way everyone (hell, anyone) wants to play just makes you more the asshole.
 No

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Kajhera
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« Reply #236 on: July 06, 2011, 01:57:21 PM »

Gah, I know the point's not to make a gish, but I can't help it, I'm making a bard.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #237 on: July 06, 2011, 02:04:04 PM »

Gah, I know the point's not to make a gish, but I can't help it, I'm making a bard.
A bardic music-focused bardsader build would be pretty darned nifty.

Work those Words of Creation!
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Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 Big Grin
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
Kajhera
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« Reply #238 on: July 06, 2011, 02:12:16 PM »

Gah, I know the point's not to make a gish, but I can't help it, I'm making a bard.
A bardic music-focused bardsader build would be pretty darned nifty.

Work those Words of Creation!

Someone else do this, it sounds neat. I can't bring my build to take even a level of a full BAB class for some reason.  Tongue

Wait no! There's a level it will fit in! Maybe two!
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Nachofan99
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« Reply #239 on: July 06, 2011, 02:20:33 PM »

I just realized I've never played a legitimate D&D game. Well that bites. Sad

So then you ALWAYS play in D&D games where Wizards are Shapechanged into Chronyatyrns and Dire Tortoises?  I feel bad for you, you're really missing out on the other 99% that D&D 3rd has to offer.
... and we basically dont feel bad that you're being a self-righteous jackass. Looloo
 You likely have to be that way all day long, or maybe we have the special privlege to see you conduct yourself in this form, I don't know. What I do know (and what I'm not sure you know) is that you're baiting people who play that way.
 You're opinion is doesn't mean shit to the rest of us really so while I personally may not deal with Dire Toroises in my games, you being condescending transends barriers of "Please gtfo".
There's no such thing as "legitimate" games of D&D, applying your qualifiers to the way everyone (hell, anyone) wants to play just makes you more the asshole.
 No



I chimed in and commented on Snakeman's build saying that it's not a tactical MIRV'd ICBM Pun-Pun Tier 0 build but is really neat and interesting and pretty solid, and offhand mentioned stuff like that probably doesn't fly in every gaming group.  I also mentioned there's a lot to 3rd edition outside of the realm of the most powerful stuff.

Your response is essentially "Fuck you douchebag!"

Give me a break.  Unless you're specifically in a group where "Dire-Tortoise Wizards" are the norm, you know that kind of stuff is not going to fly all the time and in every group.  I used the word "legitimate", I guess that's what triggered you.  Calm down.  There's no "Right way" or "Wrong way" to play and enjoy and I certainly never meant to in any way to say that.  However, when I look at builds I personally tend to look at them in light of how I think they will be received by the largest number of groups - so that generally means using fewer sources, less ambiguous rules and in general less powerful stuff.

You don't have to go all "PUT THE COOKIE DOWN!" on me.

Reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZDRDCMZbp8

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