Template and Mob Rules

[Bauglir]

Starting this thread to house an argument about how template application works and, specifically, how mobs are treated. The quotes here will link directly back, so you can catch up if you want. The gist of it is that I'm asserting that one must logically either disallow Dragonwrought Dragonspawn Kobolds (something the community is loathe to do, it seems) or allow Tauric Mobs or somesuch ridiculousness (which I'm hoping the community is even less happy to endorse).

So, with that said, let me begin.

Why does it exist when you're still working on its race when it doesn't have to exist as a creature when you're working on its feats, which (as you say) come afterward?

It exists in rules, as a viable complete statblock through each. In plot, it does not exist until inserted. The two are entirely separate.

It exists as a viable, complete stablock without feats or without a race? I'm not arguing anything about the plot. That is entirely unrelated to my argument, and I'm not sure where you got that.

EDIT: Arguably, it might be plot-related; I'm saying that a creature needs to be complete in order to acquire an acquired template, partially because they could not have done so IF they acquired one in the plot. Whether they actually do so or not is irrelevant. But that's a common sense argument, anyway, and is why I conceded in the past when I hadn't read the template rules. More important, though, is that the statements "Some templates can be added to a creature at any time", and "...indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template." overrule the normal requirement that a race MUST be chosen before feats, and then overrule the option of choosing a race before other aspects of character creation, for templates only. This is a specific case for acquired templates, and thus overrides general race rules (invalidating your use of the order of operations).

And where is it said that a requirement for taking an inherited template is that you not have an acquired template?

The requirement is "always part of a creature's existence." If that is not met, it cannot be applied.

"Now it's a Skeleton Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" is a valid objection because now it's an actual creature, then "Now it's a Kobold so you can't apply Half-Dragon" should be, too. Which is obviously ridiculous.

Honestly, I am beginning to think you are being intentionally dense. You may as well be arguing that the type pyramid does not apply, or that there is no order of operations involved in creating characters at all.

No, I'm arguing that there's a contradiction inherent in the argument that you CAN apply an acquired template before feats, but NOT before an inherited template. It is obvious, from common sense, that an inherited template must come first, just as it's obvious, from common sense, that an acquired template must be applied after a feat associated with a creature's manner of birth. But we've discarded common sense. I can accept that it is possible to interpret the rules so as to allow acquired templates to be applied to an incomplete creature (one without feats), but such an interpretation also requires that you allow them to be applied before inherited templates.

When creating characters or monsters, in the time you are defining race, you have certain options. One of those is to add inherited and acquired templates. The wording of the two not only implies a logical need for the one to be first, but also states that the creature being made cannot exist for any amount of time without it's inherited templates. This is, honestly, a bit ambiguous, but fortunately there is a perfectly logical conclusion that clarifies it without changing meaning in the least.

Yes, it states that. And it's logical to assume that when they say it cannot exist for any time without its inherited template, they're using precisely the same definition of time as when they say that a time existed when a creature did not have an acquired template. If you argue that there can be no time, as a statblock, when it did not have an inherited template, then you cannot apply inherited templates at all, but this is absurd.

Or you could create a contradiction in which the creature has potential to exist without the inherited template while still later being a creature with inherited templates.

This is not a problem for base races, as they exist without templates at all. But once you start adding templates, there is a time where it has templates applied but does not have it's inherited templates, which is explicitly disallowed.

Exactly. This happens whether or not you add an inherited acquired template first or not. The rules don't say you can't have templates applied without inherited templates; just that you can't not have an inherited template applied on a creature that has one, so the unbolded part of that clause is irrelevant. Therefore, it is obviously not an acceptable argument against what I'm putting forth. (EDITed this bit for clarity)

Although mobs are treated as one creature...

Although means that "treated as one creature" is the general case, because you're setting up all their non-single creature attributes as exceptions to that.

Again, there is nothing that defines mobs as a single creature. Simply that, "similar to a swarm" they are treated as one. This is why I continue to point out the difference between a mob and a swarm. Swarms are explicitly defined as a single creature. In fact, "a swarm is defined as a single creature" is a direct quote.

No such quote exists for a mob. It is multiple creatures acting as one for very specific purposes. This means that, by default, it is still multiple creatures except as specifically noted in the template.

The fact that they clarify how this interacts in one specific regard does not mean everything else defaults to "a mob is one single creature."

Because those are not the mob rules.

Mobs are never defined as a singular entity. It is merely "treated" as such for the things the template lists.

Let me quote for you.

Mob Anatomy (Ex): A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob cannot be flanked, tripped, grappled, or bull rushed.
Unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on a mob. Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures bestows two negative levels on the mob. A mob that gains negative levels equal to its Hit Dice breaks up as if reduced to 0 hit points. Negative levels gained in this manner are not the result of negative energy (and thus cannot be blocked by death ward or removed by restoration), but never result in permanent level loss. A mob takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and evocation spells.
Although mobs are treated as one creature, it sometimes becomes necessary to determine the fate of a specific individual caught up in the mob. If a mob is dispersed by nonlethal attacks, there are no casualties. If the mob is dispersed by lethal attacks, assume that 30% of its number are slain and 30% are reduced to 0 hit points. To determine a specific individual’s fate, simply roll d%: a result of 01–30 indicates death, 31–60 indicates the victim is reduced to 0 hit points, and a roll of 61–100 indicates the victim escapes relatively unscathed.

Emphasis mine. Between that unqualified statement that they are treated as one creature (contrary to your assertion), and the fact that Mob is a template applied to a single base creature (not a group of creatures; "“Mob” is an acquired template that can be added to any Small, Medium, or Large creature.") by the rules, you have no support for your arguments about mobs other than common sense, which, again, I completely agree with if we are to allow that. I don't know how I can be clearer about this. There is absolutely nothing in the mob rules stating that a mob is treated as multiple creatures for all other purposes. Again, there is nothing. Show me a quote.

EDIT: I looked up the mob rules in cityscape; they present only a sample mob of humans and a hybrid mob/swarm of children, and none of them change anything relevant to my argument.

[zook1shoe]

Well put, Bauglir

The reason I brought up the Cityscape version is, not only is it the most recent printing (despite being more like a 'monster' than a 'template'), but it allows a smaller mob AND has a clause about using a race beyond humans and how to change stats when doing so.

And don't get me wrong, if you to use a mob of smaller mobs in a real game, you should be kicked in the ballz. But the use of a build for a million attacks/action, then if its legal its ok.

[CrimsonDeath]

I was looking at the Mob Anatomy quality (specifically the bit about being subject to spells that target a specific number of creatures) and realized something funny.  If you have a mob of twelve Large creatures and use something like Wail of the Banshee (or multiple castings of Finger of Death or Hold Monster or whatever) to kill or disable all twelve members of the mob, the mob itself (with only 24 negative levels) is still treated as a 6HD creature and therefor has not dispersed.  (This creates the amusing mental image of a dozen rampaging troll corpses sliding face-down across the ground and slamming into things.)

So I don't stray too far away from the topic, do any of the templates strip special qualities, or would a Tauric Mob (as opposed to a Mob of Tauric creatures) count as multiple creatures for the purpose of spells that target a particular number of creatures?  (Assuming, for the moment, that a tauric mob is even possible.)

[zook1shoe]

Petitioner template was used to get rid of SAs and SQs

[Bauglir]

So I don't stray too far away from the topic, do any of the templates strip special qualities, or would a Tauric Mob (as opposed to a Mob of Tauric creatures) count as multiple creatures for the purpose of spells that target a particular number of creatures?  (Assuming, for the moment, that a tauric mob is even possible.)

I think so, actually, since (as far as I'm aware) that's one of the things that makes it treated as multiple creatures for specific purposes. This is, obviously, very silly, but I think it's the technically correct result if you assume them to be possible.

[Amechra]

Well, legally, a mob of, say, humans is a Gargantuan 30 hd Humanoid.

Applying Lycanthrope with a Titanic Magebred creature can be really funny, especially if you throw on Tauric (Big T) afterwards...

"You see what looks like a gigantic carapaced beast with a hundred human torsos rising from its back. Suddenly, it transforms itself into a tabby cat. A frickin' big tabby cat. Roll initiative."

Targeting as a mob, oodles of hit points, really hard to kill (oh, you have it down with enough nonlethal damage? Congrats, I'll need 57+ wishes to kill it permanently.) Thanks to immunity to energy drain, the whole dispersal method fails...

Might be an interesting fight, actually.

[zook1shoe]

You'd have decrease the T's size for Tauric

[CrimsonDeath]

Actually, the negative levels from killing or disabling mob members explicitly bypasses immunity to energy drain.

[Amechra]

Nope, the bypassing says nothing about bypassing ED immunity, last time I checked.

[CrimsonDeath]

Looking again, it may be up to interpretation.  What it actually says is "Negative levels gained in this manner are not the result of negative energy (and thus cannot be blocked by death ward or removed by restoration)".  One possible interpretation is that this would also bypass immunity to energy drain.  Another possible interpretation is that some Mobs (including all Constructs and Undead) are not impeded in any way when any (or all) members are disabled or slain.

[McPoyo]

Minor distinction: negative levels aren't negative energy or energy drain, the two just often coincide.

[Amechra]

Alright then, but maybe if we grab that feat from Libris Mortis that blocks x number of negative levels...

And Steadfast Determination, to offset the abysmal Wisdom you have...

[BeholderSlayer]

For some reason people are intent to argue that a template is a race. It's not, it's a template. So, sure, you pick your race before you choose your first feat. It is not *necessarily* true that a template is applied before your first feat. Some feats, Dragonwrought in particular, specifically state that you were born that way. So, instead of following the rules for race application, then feat allocation, you must mix in the inherited/acquired template rules. Acquired templates say that they are not always in place, that they were picked up some time during life. By simply following the rules for acquired templates, a Dragonwrought kobold cannot take Dragonspawn.

It is not simply a question of Race-then-feats. Templates are not "races." Elf, Dwarf, Kobold, etc. are races. Templates are different.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It is not simply a question of Race-then-feats. Templates are not "races." Elf, Dwarf, Kobold, etc. are races. Templates are different.

Race includes your template.

So your race could be "half-dragon human", just like it could be "half-elf human" or "human" or "kitten".  Templates are applied to a "base race", and then modify it.

Here's an example of templates being considered part of your race

Dragon-descended races are those that use either the half-dragon or draconic creature templates

Another is the "Monsters as races" section in the DMG, which lists vampires and lycanthropes under the possible "monster races".

In addition, there's the "Black Blood Hunter" prestige class from PGtF.  Among the requirements?

Race: Any lycanthrope

From Faiths and Pantheons, the Arachne

Race: Aranea, choldrith, deep dragon, drow, half-drow, half-fiend draegloth

From Underdark, the Illithid Body-tamer

Race: Illithid, illithidkin, or a creature with the half-illithid template.

So it should be clear that your race includes any templates that you happen to possess.

[McPoyo]

FAQ, as well, has an entry somewhere on it. I believe its the "innate magical abilities" question.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, I think it's pretty incontrovertible that templates are a part of race. I'm just saying that the special rules for acquired templates overrule the normal rules (choose Race before Feats and so on), making it impossible to choose one before the creature is complete, but possible to choose one afterward.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yeah, I think it's pretty incontrovertible that templates are a part of race. I'm just saying that the special rules for acquired templates overrule the normal rules (choose Race before Feats and so on), making it impossible to choose one before the creature is complete, but possible to choose one afterward.

The thing about acquired templates is they are defined as templates that "can be added to creatures anytime".  It does mention that you should "always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates", but nothing about feats.


Looking through this again, the silly-literal reading of

Level Adjustment: This entry is a modifier to the base creature’s level adjustment. Any level adjustment is meaningless unless the creature retains a high enough Intelligence (minimum 3) to gain class levels after applying the template.

is quite abusive.  Stack up all the templates you want, and just bring up your intelligence at the end with fiendish or something.

[Bauglir]

Some templates can be added to creatures anytime. A monster or character may become a ghost after death. A spellcaster of at least 11th level can become a lich. Those with 5 or more HD killed by vampires may become vampires. Templates such as these are referred to as acquired templates, indicating that the creature did not always have the attributes of the template.
Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Examples include the celestial, fiendish, half-celestial, half-dragon, and half-fiend templates—all assume the creature was born with the template.
It’s possible for a certain kind of template to be of either type. The lycanthrope template, for instance, is inherited for a creature that was born with the affliction. It can also be acquired by a creature that is bitten by a natural lycanthrope.

They're templates that "can be added anytime", but there's no line saying they need to be applied after inherited templates, as far as I'm aware. Further, "the creature did not always have the attributes of the template", which can only be true if that quote is a qualifier of "anytime". That's the entire block of text the describes the differences, as far as I'm aware.

Here's how it goes. The default is that a creature chooses race as part of character creation, and templates are part of that. However, acquired templates have special rules; first, you can add them anytime, so you can choose them during or after character creation. Second, you "did not always have the attributes of the template", indicating that you CANNOT apply them during character creation. Both are exceptions to the normal rules that work out to being allowed to apply acquired templates only after character creation.

[zook1shoe]

Here's how it goes. The default is that a creature chooses race as part of character creation, and templates are part of that. However, acquired templates have special rules; first, you can add them anytime, so you can choose them during or after character creation. Second, you "did not always have the attributes of the template", indicating that you CANNOT apply them during character creation. Both are exceptions to the normal rules that work out to being allowed to apply acquired templates only after character creation.

i guess the only problem i have with that is, that it doesn't specifically say how soon "after" character creation, an acquired template can be applied, or at what time can you now apply an acquired template?

which this sort of things is addressed for nearly every other aspect in the game, like actions and the order to which you apply things during character creation.

EDIT: at the end of the template section in the MM1 (page 293), they have a section called "Adding More Than One Template"

In theory, there's no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature's type--you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. For example, a vampire cannot become a lich and vice versa.

[Bauglir]

Ah, I HAD missed that. Okay, so I can no longer say that if you want to have Dragonspawn Dragonwrought kobolds still get all the goodies of being a True Dragon, you have to accept Tauric Mob creatures or other such madness. You can just dismiss the descriptions of when to apply templates at the beginning of the section as fluff instead of rules text; I don't accept that, but I can't prove otherwise since Core books did a poor job of distinguishing between fluff and crunch sometimes (in my experience).