PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:06 PM » |
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I have staged a coup of the Why Tier X's are in Tier X series of threads with a complete list. My hope is to free JaronK the burden of now a 3rd and a maybe 4th 'tier system for classes' thread. This will save the discussion of tiers themselves for the tier thread. Concern over specific classes can go here. Let me know if I am missing any non-variant base class in 3.5. I intend to include them all. I do not claim to intimately know or play each class. The work I have done is completely at the mercy of the boards and my be changed, so please try to keep indignation to its lowest. Any balance concerns are considered after the dirty handbook fixes. You will notice that the upper tiers are casters. If you are looking for all casting classes, feel free to look here. Finally, I will try to keep up with the discussion and add mention about specific class features when needed; hence the two posts per tier. Coloring Key for optimizing the base classes: Too simple or too few options: It is just about as powerful or weak as it is going to be even after optimization so it's not worth the effort. For low tier classes this means you can't stretch it into higher tiers as easily. For upper tiers its nice that you probably won't suck that much even if you are fairly new. Some complexity, some options: You get out what you put in. Heavy optimization won't be as obvious as blue colored, but it will be noticable. Consider this normal 'stretchiness' to go up or down a tier dependent on the build and player. JaronK noticed that optimization bumps up or down a tier - two for classes on the edge or with more extensive cheese. This is normal. Too complex or too many options: You get more than what you put in. You really need to understand how this class works. For high tier classes this is bad because you can't start cold and be the epitome of tier 1. For lower tier classes this is actually a good thing because if you try, you can pull it up more than normal. However it might be frustrating to get past the learning curve. Tier Outline6(3+3NPC): Aristocrat, Commoner, Divine Mind (CP 9), Warrior, Samurai (CW 6), Truenamer (TM 198) 5(14+2NPC): Battledancer (DC 26), Divine Mind (with Web Enhancements), Eidolon (Gh 16), Expert, Fighter, Healer (MH 8), Knight, Lurk (CP 13), Magewright (ECS 256), Mariner (LotT 13), Mlar (Dungeon Magazine 100 256-257 githyanki section), Monk, Ninja (CAd 5), Noble (DCS 50), Paladin, Samurai (with Imperious Command feat), Soulborn (MoI 25), Soulknife, Swashbuckler (CW 11) 4(18+1NPC): Adept, Barbarian, Dragonfire Adept (with Breath Effects), Dragon Shaman (PHB2 11), Fighter (Dungeon Crasher variant), Jester (DC 36), Hexblade (CW 5), Marshal, Master (WotL 21), Montebank (DC 42), Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon 156), Ranger, Rogue, Savant (DC 45), Scout (CAd 10), Spellthief, Sohei (OA 27), Totemist, Warlock (CArc 5), Warmage (CArc 10) 3(16): Ardent (CP 5), Bard, Beguiler (PHB2 6), Binder (TM 9), Crusader (ToB 8), Dread Necromancer (HH 84), Duskblade (PHB2 19), Factotum (Du 14), Incarnate (MoI 20), Psychic Rogue (with powers), Psychic Warrior, Ranger (Wildshape variant), Shadowcaster (TM 111), Shugenja (CD 10), Swordsage (ToB 15), Warblade, Wilder, 2(9): Binder (with Online Vestiges), Death Master (DC 31), Favored Soul (CD 6), Mystic (DCS 47), Psion, Sha'ir (DC 51), Shaman (OA 23), Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman (CD 14), Wu Jen (CArc 14) 1(6): Archivist, Artificer (ECS 29), Cleric, Druid, "Erudite" variant Psion (with Spell to Power ACF), WizardOther(12): Aberrant Paragon (DragMag332 45), Eidoloncer (Gh 17), Drow Paragon, Dwarf Paragon, Elf Paragon, Gnome Paragon, Half-Dragon Paragon, Half-Elf Paragon, Half-Orc Paragon, Halfling Paragon, Human Paragon, Kobold Paragon, Orc Paragon, Tiefling ParagonTier Relative Amount Breakdown: (missing a few classes, feel free to recalculate) 6: 8.3% with NPCs, 4.5% without 5: 22.2% with NPCs, 21.2% without 4: 26.3% with NPCs, 27.2% without 3: 22.2% with NPCs, 24.2% without 2: 12.5% with NPCs, 13.6% without 1: 8.3% with NPCs, 9% without Displayed in groups of 2:6&5: 30.6% with NPCs, 25.8% without 4&3: 48.6% with NPCs, 51.5% without 2&1: 20.8% with NPCs, 22.6% without Results:The mode is Tier 4 which JaronK suspected might be the 'default' level of power a PC should have, followed by Tier 3. Notice that when NPC classes are considered Tier 3 and 5 tie for second place, making us even more sure that Tier 4 is truly the norm. Tier 6 and 1 have the same number of outliers when NPC classes are considered, which is good because each is considered 'broken' albeit in opposite manners. Furthermore the mostly non-casting Tier 5 makes up a greater chunk than the all full caster classes of Tier 2, perhaps indicating greater hesitation with 9th level spells and powers.
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 08:07:35 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:21 PM » |
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Base Class Chassis Chart | Class | ?+int | d? | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | * = Variable Tier | | Aberrant Paragon | 2+ | d8? | 3/4 | Bad | Bad | Good | * | | Aristocrat | 4+ | d8 | 3/4 | Bad | Bad | Good | NPC | | Adept | | | | | | | NPC | | Archivist | | | | | | | | | Ardent | | | | | | | | | Artificer | | | | | | | | | Barbarian | | | | | | | | | Bard | | | | | | | | | Battledancer | 4+ | d8 | Full | Bad | Good | Bad | | | Beguiler | | | | | | | | | Binder | | | | | | | | | Cleric | | | | | | | | | Commoner | 2+ | d4 | 1/2 | Bad | Bad | Bad | NPC | | Crusader | | | | | | | | | Dargonfire Adept | | | | | | | | | Death Master | | | | | | | | | Divine Mind | 2+ | d10 | 3/4 | Good | Bad | Good | | | Dragon Shaman | | | | | | | | | Dread Necromancer | | | | | | | | | Drow Paragon | | | | | | | | | Druid | | | | | | | | | Duskblade | | | | | | | | | Dwarf Paragon | | | | | | | | | Eidolon | 2+ | d8 | Full | Bad | Bad | Good | ~1 | | Eidoloncer | 2+ | d6 | 1/2 | Bad | Bad | Good | ~1* | | Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | Erudite | | | | | | | | | Expert | 6+ | d6 | 3/4 | Bad | Bad | Good | NPC | | Factotoum | | | | | | | | | Favored Soul | | | | | | | | | Fighter | 2+ | d10 | Full | Good | Bad | Bad | | | Gnome Paragon | | | | | | | | | Half-Dragon Paragon | | | | | | | | | Half-Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | Half-Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | Halfling Paragon | | | | | | | | | Healer | 4+ | d8 | 1/2 | Good | Bad | Good | | | Hexblade | | | | | | | | | Human Paragon | | | | | | | | | Incarnate | | | | | | | | | Jester | | | | | | | | | Knight | 2+ | d12 | Full | Bad | Bad | Good | | | Kobold Paragon | | | | | | | | | Lurk | | | | | | | | | Magewright | 2+ | d4 | 1/2 | Bad | Bad | Good | | | Mariner | 6+ | d8 | Full | Good | Good | Bad | | | Marshall | | | | | | | | | Master | | | | | | | | | Mlar | 4+ | d6 | 3/4 | Bad | Bad | Good | NPC | | Monk | 4+ | d8 | 3/4 | Good | Good | Good | | | Montebank | | | | | | | | | Mystic | | | | | | | | | Nightstalker | 4+ | d6 | 3/4 | Bad | Good | Good | | | Ninja | 6+ | d6 | 3/4 | Bad | Good | Bad | | | Noble | 4+ | d8 | 3/4 | Bad | Good | Good | | | Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | Paladin | 2+ | d10 | Full | Good | Bad | Bad | | | Psion | | | | | | | | | Psychic Rogue | | | | | | | | | Psychic Warrior | | | | | | | | | Ranger | | | | | | | | | Rogue | | | | | | | | | Samurai | 2+ | d10 | Full | Good | Bad | Bad | | | Savant | | | | | | | | | Scout | | | | | | | | | Sha'ir | | | | | | | | | Shadowcaster | | | | | | | | | Shaman | | | | | | | | | Shugenja | | | | | | | | | Sohei | | | | | | | | | Sorcerer | | | | | | | | | Soulborn | 2+ | d10 | Full | Good | Bad | Bad | | | Soulknife | | | | | | | | | Spelltheif | | | | | | | | | Spirit Shaman | | | | | | | | | Swashbuckler | | | | | | | | | Swordsage | 4+ | d10 | 3/4 | Bad | Good | Good | | | Tiefling Paragon | | | | | | | | | Totemist | | | | | | | | | Truenamer | 4+ | d6 | 3/4 | Bad | Bad | Good | | | Warblade | | | | | | | | | Warlock | | | | | | | | | Warmage | | | | | | | | | Warrior | 2+ | d8 | Full | Good | Bad | Bad | NPC | | Wilder | | | | | | | | | Wizard | | | | | | | | | Wu Jen | | | | | | | |
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:33:24 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:30 PM » |
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In-Class Skills Charts Abbreviations for Table 1: United, PHB SkillsA = AppraiseBa = BalanceBl = BluffCl = ClimbCo = ConcentrationCr = CraftDS = Decipher ScriptDm = DiplomacyDD = Disable DeviceDg = DisguiseEA = Escape ArtistF = ForgeryGI = Gather InformationHA = Handle AnimalHe = HealHi = HideI = IntimidateJ = JumpL = ListenMS = Move SilentlyOL = Open LockP = ProfessionR = RideSe = SearchSM = Sense MotiveSH = Sleight Of HandSL = Speak LanguageSc = SpellcraftSp = SpotSu = SurvivalSw = SwimTu = TumbleUM = Use Magic DeviceUR = Use RopeAbbreviations for Table 2: Separate or non-PHB SkillsAH = AutohypnosisIF = Iajitsu Focus (OA 58) KA = Knowledge (Arcana)Ke = Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)KD = Knowledge (Dungeoneering)KG = Knowledge (Geography)KH = Knowledge (History)KL = Knowledge (Local)KNa = Knowledge (Nature)KNo = Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)KPs = Knowledge (Psionics)KR = Knowledge (Religion)KPl = Knowledge (The Planes)Ps = PsicraftPA = Perform (Act)PC = Perform (Comedy)PD = Perform (Dance)PK = Perform (Keyboard Instruments)PO = Perform (Oratory)PP = Perform (Percussion Instruments)PSt = Perform (String Instruments)PW = Perform (Wind Instruments)PSi = Perform (Sing)TS = Truespeak (ToM 195) UP = Use Psionic DeviceTable 1: United, PHB Skills| Class | A | Ba | Bl | Cl | Co | Cr | DS | Dm | DD | Dg | EA | F | GI | HA | He | Hi | I | J | L | MS | OL | P | R | Se | SM | SH | SL | Sc | Sp | Su | Sw | Tu | UM | UR | | | Aberrant Paragon | | | Bl | Cl | Co | | | Dm | | | EA | | | | | Hi | I | | | MS | | | | | SM | | | | | Su | | Aristocrat | A | | Bl | | | | | Dm | | Dg | | F | GI | HA | | | I | | L | | | | R | | SM | | SL | | Sp | Su | Sw | | Adept | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Archivist | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ardent | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Artificer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Barbarian | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Bard | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Battledancer | | Ba | | Cl | | | | | | | EA | | | | | Hi | | J | L | MS | OL | | | | | SH | | | | | Sw | Tu | | Beguiler | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Binder | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Cleric | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Commoner | | | | Cl | | Cr | | | | | | | | HA | | | | J | L | | | P | R | | | | | | Sp | | Sw | | | UR | | Crusader | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dragonfire Adept | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Death Master | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Divine Mind | | | | Cl | Co | Cr | | | | | | | | | | | | J | | | | P | R | | | | | | | | Sw | | Dragon Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dread Necromancer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Drow Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Druid | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Duskblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dwarf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Eidolon | | Ba | Bl | | Co | | | | | | | | | | | Hi | I | | | | | | | | SM | | | | Sp | | Eidoloncer | | | | | Co | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sc | | Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Erudite | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Expert Any 10 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Any 10 | | Factotoum | A | Ba | Bl | Cl | Co | Cr | DS | Dm | DD | Dg | EA | F | GI | HA | He | Hi | I | J | L | MS | OL | P | R | Se | SM | SH | SL | Sc | Sp | Su | Sw | Tu | UM | UR | | | Favored Soul | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Fighter | | | | Cl | | Cr | | | | | | | | HA | | | I | J | | | | | R | | Gnome Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Dragon Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Halfling Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Healer | | | | | Co | Cr | | Dm | | | | | | HA | He | | | | | | | P | | | SM | | | Sc | | Su | | Hexblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Human Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Incarnate | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Jester | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Kobold Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Knight | | | | Cl | | | | | | | | | | HA | | | I | J | | | | | R | | | | | | | | Sw | | Lurk | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Magewright | | | | | Co | Cr | | | | | | | | HA | | | | | | | | P | | | | | | Sc | | Mariner | | Ba | Bl | Cl | | Cr | | | | | EA | | GI | | | | | J | | | | P | | | | | SL | | Sp | Su | Sw | Tu | | UR | | | Marshall | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Master | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Mlar | | | | | Co | Cr | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | P | | | | | | Sc | | Su | | Monk | | Ba | | Cl | Co | Cr | | Dm | | | EA | | | | | Hi | | J | L | MS | | P | | | SM | | | | Sp | | Sw | Tu | | Montebank | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Mystic | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Nightstalker | | Ba | Bl | | Co | Cr | | Dm | DD | | EA | | GI | | | Hi | | | L | MS | OL | P | | Se | | SH | | Sc | Sp | Su | | | UM | UR | | | Ninja | | Ba | Bl | Cl | Co | Cr | | | | Dg | EA | | | | | Hi | | J | L | MS | OL | | | Se | SM | SH | | | Sp | | Sw | Tu | | Noble | A | | Bl | | | | | Dm | | | | | GI | | | | I | | L | | | P | R | | SM | | SL | | Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Paladin | | | | | Co | Cr | | Dm | | | | | | HA | He | | | | | | | P | R | | SM | | Psion | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Psychic Rogue | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Psychic Warrior | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ranger | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Rogue | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Samurai | | | | | Co | Cr | | Dm | | | | | | | | | I | | | | | | R | | SM | | Savant | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Scout | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sha'ir | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shadowcaster | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shugenja | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sohei | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sorcerer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Soulborn | | | Bl | Cl | Co | Cr | | Dm | | | | | GI | HA | He | | I | | | | | P | R | | | | | Sc | | | Sw | | Soulknife | | | | Cl | Co | Cr | | | | | | | | | | Hi | | J | L | MS | | P | | | | | | | Sp | | | Tu | | Spelltheif | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Spirit Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Swashbuckler | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Swordsage | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Tiefling Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Totemist | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Truenamer | | | | | Co | Cr | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | UM | UR | | | Warblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warlock | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warmage | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warrior | | | | Cl | | | | | | | | | | HA | | | I | J | | | | | R | | | | | | | | Sw | | | | | | Wilder | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wizard | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wu Jen | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:37:40 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:39 PM » |
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Table 2: Separate or non-PHB Skills| Class | AH | IF | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | Ps | PA | PC | PD | PK | PO | PP | PSt | PW | PSi | TS | UP | | | Aberrant Paragon | | | | | KD | | | | | | | | KPl | | Aristocrat | | | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | | PA | PC | PD | PK | PO | PP | PSt | PW | PSi | | Adept | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Archivist | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ardent | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Artificer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Barbarian | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Bard | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Battledancer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | PA | PC | PD | PK | PO | PP | PSt | PW | | Beguiler | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Binder | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Cleric | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Commoner | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Crusader | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dargonfire Adept | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Death Master | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Divine Mind | AH | | | | | | | | | | KPs | KR | | Ps | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dragon Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dread Necromancer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Drow Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Druid | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Duskblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Dwarf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Eidolon | | | | | | | | | KNa | | | | KPl | | Eidoloncer | | | KA | | | | | | KNa | | | KR | KPl | | Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Erudite | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Expert Any 10 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Any 10 | | Factotoum | AH | IF | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | Ps | PA | PC | PD | PK | PO | PP | PSt | PW | PSi | TS | UP | | Favored Soul | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Fighter | | Gnome Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Dragon Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Elf Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Half-Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Halfling Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Healer | | | | | | | | | KNa | | | KR | | Hexblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Human Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Incarnate | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Jester | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Knight | | | | | | | | | | KNo | | Kobold Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Lurk | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Magewright | | | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | | Mariner | | | | | | | | KL | KNa | | Marshall | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Master | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Mlar | | | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | | Monk | | | KA | | | | | | | | | KR | | | PA | PC | PD | PK | PO | PP | PSt | PW | | Montebank | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Mystic | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Nightstalker | | | KA | | | | | KL | | | | KR | | Ninja | | Noble | | | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | | Orc Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Paladin | | | | | | | | | | KNo | | KR | | Psion | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Psychic Rogue | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Psychic Warrior | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Ranger | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Rogue | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Samurai | | | | | | | KH | | | KNo | | Savant | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Scout | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sha'ir | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shadowcaster | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Shugenja | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sohei | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Sorcerer | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Soulborn | | | KA | | | | | | | | | | KPl | | Soulknife | AH | | | | | | | | | | KPs | | Spelltheif | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Spirit Shaman | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Swashbuckler | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Swordsage | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Tiefling Paragon | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Totemist | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Truenamer | | | KA | Ke | KD | KG | KH | KL | KNa | KNo | KPs | KR | KPl | | | | | | PO | | | | | TS | | Warblade | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warlock | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warmage | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Warrior | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wilder | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wizard | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Wu Jen | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 12:39:00 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:47 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 6 Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates): Why its Defunct: - worst 'progression' and 'list' in the game.
- Epic spells 10 levels too late is laughable, like crossing the finish line years after the race was over.
- The auras are too small too early. Party formations make you a lovely AoE target.
- Due to your sorry progression, you can't PrC to a 3.5 class without losing 6th level powers
Dead Levels: 2, 16 Progressions: a power known/2 levels starting at 6 (with 1 at 5), Maximum power cap every 3 starting at 5, tiny amount of PP (with conflicting text for levels 1-4) Class Features: Mantle+5'Aura+Wild Talent, 10', divine grace, 15', Mantle, 20', Change Aura(standard action), 25', 2nd aura, 30', 3rd mantle, 35', change aura(move action), 40', 45', Change aura(swift action), 50', 3rd aura TruenamerWhy its Defunct: - WotC just discovered the best flavor in the game. "Quick let's screw up the mechanics!" They said to one another.
- The main problems are with the mechanics of truenaming. There is no reason for the Law of Sequence to exist. It's like demanding Sorcerers may not spam fireball (You can't cast that! The fireball from last turn is still burning!)
- The Truenaming check for items and creatures should NOT be x2 CL or CR. Where you succeeded at level 1, you will fail at level 20.
- Can do some fairly neat things, but its simply not worth the effort. If you need to abuse polymorph or an item familiar to function, well, that's a problem.
- You have some awesomely fluffed PrC options. Too bad you will still suck when you take them.
Dead levels: 3,4,5,11,12,16,18,19. Progression: A Lexicon of the Evolving Mind every level, one of the Craft Tool every 4 starting at 7 (but 1 at 4), one of the Perfected Map every 4 starting at 8 Class Features: Known personal truename, knowledge focus, truename research, Knowledge focus, Bonus recitation feat, see the named 1/day, knowledge focus, sending, knoweldge focus, bonus recitation feat, speak unto the masses, say my name and I am there Samurai (without Imperious Command) Why its Defunct: - The best part is not being this class - falling and being a Ronin is this class's best schtick.
- Code of Conducts are bad. Except this class is so bad, breaking the CoC is actually good.
- Decent class skills - except you probably are dumping int to intimidate or smite and damage with your sucky weapons.
- Class features that act as feats are not psy-ref'able. Even then your improved and greater TWF (for sucky weapons) comes too late anyways.
PrC's:Exotic Weapon Master: 1 level gets the Exotic Blow ability, which is very solid PA damage. Ronin: Mentioned earlier. Kensai: The Samurai is one of the few classes with all Kensai class skills, and the oath of service meshes well with the samurai's vow. It's not THAT exciting, but it is a very flavorful class, and choosing your own weapon enhancements is a lot of fun. Knight Protector: This will make you more of a tank, though none of the features are awesome (as a sidenote, you gain Tower Shield proficiency without knowing any other shields!) Knight of the Iron Glacier (FB): C'mon. It already requires EWP: Bastard Sword, and you KNOW you want to ride a giant rhinoceros! Bloodstorm Blade (TOB): First, it requires MCing into warblade, which is better than samurai. Second, it will let you change your EWP: Bastard Sword to any other weapon - and the same should apply to your other subpar feats that specify only a bastard sword and short sword. Besides, throwing weapons as a full melee attack is just awesome. -Akalsaris Dead Levels: 4, 9, 13, 15, 18, 19 Class Features: Diasho Proficiency, Two Swords as One, Kiai Smite, Iaigusu Master, Staredown, Kiai Smite, Improved Initiative, Mass Staredown, Improved Two Swords as One, Kiai Smite, Improved Staredown, Greater Two Swords as One, Kiai Smite, Frightful Presence Warrior:Why its Defunct: - Its just a chasis with full BAB
- Allows you to fake continuing as an ex-paladin (but not with the awesome that are Blackgaurds)
Aristocrat:Why its Defunct: - The highest starting gold (4d8x10 gp) doesn't matter if you start higher than level 1
- Diplomancy in an NPC class-only campaign is like being the prettiest patient at the full-body, severe burn ward
Commoner:Why its Defunct: - It is supposed to be; peasants aren't supposed to be awesome.
- Too bad for WotC we take the silly commoner only Chicken-infested flaw seriously. Be purple and name yourself Gonzo.
- Survivor at level 2? *Shrug*
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 11:25:02 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2011, 12:55:57 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 5a PaladinWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - You're supposed to off tank thanks to your healings and charge in on your mount for the smite. Too bad your MAD to do so, assuming you hit. Its better to be the mount.
- The detect evil is worth it for nonBBEGs (who are undetectable). Not worth the aura of good bulls-eye
- Lay on hands isn't effective healing, but its free. The real boost that level is the saves boost.
- The aura is too situational with small range. It almost makes disease immunity look useful
- You can pull significantly late Divine feat use and DMM shenanigans on your pansy spells. Feat tax or MAD.
- Your default mount is a retarded animal companion. You can supermount it, but its not optimal to use the paladin class to even do that.
- Your late SLAs are too situational and too sparse anyways. Wouldn't be the level if it were at will.
Dead levels:7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19. Progression: +1 smite/day per multiple of 5, 1 remove disease/week per multiple of 5, half caster progression starting at 4, mount progression by table and boost every 5 after that. Class Features: Aura of good+detect evil+smite evil 1/day, Divine grace+lay on hands, Aura of courage+divine health, Turn undead, special mount MagewrightWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Has 10 5th level spells if you have an Int of 30.
- Spell mastery each time a new slot is up is enough for the gems like CoP, animate dead, and dispel magic
- No support, tiny list, and no class features? I'd rather have one less spell level, a mount, and some class features on a decent chassis.
FighterWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Anyone can get feats. They are cheap. See my prereq handbook for the free feat diet.
- Fighter only feats really aren't that cool, even without comparing to spells available at a similar level. Your better off whoring more general combat feats.
HealerWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Clerics still heal better than you, without focusing on it.
- You're supposed to heal with your spells right? Too bad you have a limited list rather than "all conjuration(healing) spells." If you didn't have revivify a psion would heal better than you.
- Supplimentary out of combat healing isn't worth a level and you still have to blow metamagics to not get close for all your healing
- As paladin, your late SLAs are less situational but too sparse. Wouldn't be the level if it were at will, but atleast level 20 doesn't have to pay the costs.
- Your unicorn companion is a weak version of the Special Mount ability
Dead levels:11,12,14,16,17,18,19. Progression: full casting Class Features: healing hands, skill focus(heal), cleanse paralysis, cleanse disease, cleanse fear, cleanse poison, effortless healing, unicorn companion, cleanse blindness, cleanse spirit, cleanse petrification, new limb, new life Divine Mind (with Web Enhancements)Why it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - You can now spam astral contructs. Too bad its got nerfed so much
- As before but you have a first level power. I would say choose wisely, but its even worse than the regular feat.
- you can pull the divine feat tricks a paladin can and at the same level. Too bad you don't cast spells for DMM.
Dead levels: 2, 16. Progression: +5' aura every other level after. Class Features:mantle+hidden talent+Entropic ally, aura 5', stygian path, 2nd mantle, change aura(standard action), 2nd aura, 3rd mantle, change aura(move action), change aura(standard action), 3rd aura MlarWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - You can make things. Major creation is nice.
- Poisons anyone?
SoulbornWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - You can smite if you are MAD, but you are still a big target
- These are very niche. Immunity to strength penalties is the best because evil does it better
- You get your chakras late and you have a crappy list. Welcome to being a soulborn.
- Sharing your immunity is cool but you can only do one at a time so its rarely useful.
- Timeless body is later than the monks and suffers from the same problem.
Dead levels: 3, 6, 12, 16. Progression: +1smite/day every multiple of 5, Class Features: aura+1/day smite, incarnum defense, bonus feat, bonus feat, chakra binds (crown, feet, hands), bonus feat, share incarnum defense 1/day, bonus feat, share incarnum defense 2/day, chakra binds (arms, brow, shoulders), share incarnum defense 3/day, chakra binds (throat, wrist), Timeless body EidolonWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Free multiclassing is cool if you don't build correctly to allow for dips but need feats
- none of the ghost feats are worth it except in specific circumstances: fade for savage progression 1 or melee ghosts might want corrupting and enervating touch. Ghost Glide is suboptimal but flavorful
LurkWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: MonkWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Not sure what WotC thought the monk's role should be besides 'awesome'. I mean look at all those progressions with no dead levels!
 - The chasis is wrong for a meleer. You don't have full BAB, so don't expect to hit anything without severe optimization.
- Your unarmed damage isn't great thanks to exotic weapons, but you can go king of smack if you severely optimize. Too bad you still won't hit
- Dinky AC bonus for your MAD, naked self. Like the above, everyone can have this without the t5 ickiness thanks to a monks belt. It's like core was trying to invalidate the monk class.
- Your speed is an enhancement bonus, so everyone and their mother can do better without wasting precious ECL. What are you going to do with it anyways? Note that spring attack is a trap.
- Little bonuses here and there aren't class features. They are feats. You have paladin-like immunity to diseases, so now you can't become a lycanthrope. Awesome.
- You can heal yourself some and slow fall. Its a good thing you spent levels on this rather than petty cash!
- Spell Resistance that you can't turn off is cool. Nothing like missing that heal or buff!
- Your mild maneuverability of improved evasion, 1/day dimension door, and level rounds/day etherealness are what casters got a long time ago, assuming they even care to blow the money on the ring. Usually, it isn't that important.
- Poison immunity, and tongues come too late and don't get me started on a fort save ability that doesn't work on the cool types anyways.
- Abusing aging penalties comes too late to be useful and being an outsider with sucky DR is not a capstone, no matter what WotC thinks.
Dead levels:none. Progression: Flurry of Blows +1 hit per level except 13&17, Unarmed Damage die bump every multiple of 4, +1AC every multiple of 5, +10Speed Bonus every multiple of 3, Class Features: Bonus feat+flurry of blows+unarmed strike, Bonus feat+evasion, Still mind, Ki strike (magic)+slow fall 20', Purity of body, Bonus feat+slow fall 30', Wholeness of body, Slow fall 40', Improved evasion, Ki strike (lawful)+slow fall 50', Diamond body+greater flurry, Abundant step+slow fall 60', Diamond soul, Slow fall 70', Quivering palm, Ki strike (adamantine)+slow fall 80', Timeless body+tongue of the sun and moon, Slow fall 90', Empty body, Perfect self+slow fall any distance Samurai (with Imperious Command feat)Why it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Mass Staredown is mildly cool with Imperious Command. Unfortunately, Zhentarium Fighter does it better (Swift Action, so you can still attack), and the Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair PrCs both provide far superior versions of this ability.
- Samurai 10 with the Fearsome Armor enhancement (DoTU) and the Imperious Command feat can do the double intimidate 4 levels sooner than normal, and send foes cowering for 1 round first. Of course, at that level a Zhentarim fighter with that armor can do a triple intimidate.
Dead levels: see above, though you might as well use the web enhancement while your at it. Progression: see above Class Features: see above NinjaWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Same problems as the monk on AC bonus. Doesn't even stack without optimization
- Sudden strike is the retarded cousin of sneak attack. See the rogue entry and then try to imagine it sucking more.
- Ki is so flavorful. Quick make it suck! Trapfinding has the same problems rogues face
- The ghost abilities are pretty cool, I admit. Its the real thing that makes you a ninja. Abuse it before your niche fades.
- Great leap doesn't worth with a medium load and your spider climb isn't even really a spider climb.
- The Ghost Mind ability can be bypassed so easily, its worthless
- Ghost sight is only 15 levels too late compared to a warlock. That's not much, is it?
Dead levels:none. You are awesome like the monk. Right? Progression: +1AC every multiple of 5, +1d6 sudden strike every odd level including level 1, +2 acrobatics every multiple of 6 Class Features: trapfinding+ki power, ghost step(invisible), poison use, great leap, ki dodge, speed climb, ghost strike, improved poison use, ghost step (ethereal), evasion, ghost mind, ghost sight, greater ki dodge, ghost walk BattledancerWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - If the ninja is the inbred monk rogue lovechild, the battledancer is the severly inbred monk plus monk then given away to the circus child.
- Move action Su when threatened give +4 vs fear for 5+cha. Like that helps?
- Congratulations, your speed boost isn't enhancement. Too bad you get less than the monk so it evens out.
- No tumble restrictions. Okay that's good anti-melee stuff. And for the teleporting casters?
- Dancer's Strikes involve blowing a standard action to gain it for only 5+cha rounds. Raise your hand if you like action penalties to be effective in combat! Don't get excited about that (any) either; you merely pick one unchanging type.
- You can water walk three levels after the cleric has been doing it.
- Pounce is cool. Too bad the barbarians did it ten levels ago.
- An AC debuff is okay but this ability only matters if your allies are stupid enough to proc a lot of AoOs. Otherwise +4str or +4dex is better.
- A fly speed is good. It competes well with those 9th level spells, huh?
- +2d6 and crit confirm is again not a capstone.
Dead levels: 3, 7, 9, 13, 15, 19. Progression: cha-based AC and unarmed damage as monk. But with full BAB! Class Features: AC bonus+unarmed strike, battle dancer's performance, +10'ms, dance of the vexing snake, Dancer's strike(magic), dance of the floating step, +20'ms, Dance of the springing tiger, Dancer's strike(alignment), dance of the crushing python, 30'ms, dance of the soaring eagle, dancer's strike(any), dance of the death's embrace KnightWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - Blow a swift action to hit harder assuming the opponent meets the criteria of being low CR. Snore.
- Some people get hard ons reading about forcing agro. Its a will save. You might as well charm them, but atleast this ability isn't mind-affecting.
- Reroll on fear assuming you are MAD. Meh
- More must be low CR stuff. Its a dinky fear effect
- Slipper mind, basically
- Ex furiousity is cool but nothing new for the past however many levels.
Dead levels: 19. Progression: Fighters challenge +1 every 6 after 1, shield block+1 every 9 after 2 Class Features: Fighters challenge +1+knight's challenge+knight's code, mounted combat+shield block+1, bullwark defense, armor mastery(medium)+test of mettle, bonus feat+vigilant defender, shield ally, call to battle, armor master(heavy), bonus feat, daunting challenge, improved shield ally, bonus feat, beyond loyalty, impetuous endurance, loyal beyond death SwashbucklerWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: MarinerWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: ExpertWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - You are the skill monkey version of a commoner
- Choosing any 10 skills goes a long way if you chose the right ones. Craft? No. Iajitsu Focus? Yes please.
SoulknifeWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well: - The base stats on a mind blade aren't great so don't pretend to have an awesome weapon. You don't.
- Even at range (crap 30') don't pretend to do your extra damage since everyone loves being immune to mind-affecting
- The quick draw would be good, except you can only throw the mind blade twice in a round until level 17
- Non crappy shapes still require EWP and are at -1 enhancement bonus. Awesome
- Enhancing your crappy weapon would be cool if you couldn't just by the same thing...
- The feats are fine. Better than the whirlwind silliness anyways.
- Int damage is cool, but its too little too late. First level casters can do that.
Dead levels:none. Progression: +1 mind blade every 4 levels Class Features: mind blade+WF+Wild Talent, Throw Mind Blade, Psychic Strike +1d8, Freedraw+Shade Mind Blade, Mind Blade Enhancement +1+Speed of Thought, Psychic Strike +2d8, Bladewind+GWF, Mind blade enhancement +2, Psychic Strike +3d8, Knife to the Soul, Mind Blade Enhancement +3, Psychic strike +4d8, Multiple Throw, Mind Blade Enhancement +4, Psychic Strike +5d8 NobleWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well:
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 11:44:16 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
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Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:04 PM » |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:16:29 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:10 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 4a TotemistWhy it Can Only Do its Job: JesterWhy it Can Only Do its Job: BarbarianWhy it Can Only Do its Job: SavantWhy it Can Only Do its Job: AdeptWhy it Can Only Do its Job: MarshalWhy it Can Only Do its Job: RangerWhy it Can Only Do its Job: RogueWhy it Can Only Do its Job: WarlockWhy it Can Only Do its Job: Fighter (Dungeon Crasher variant)Why it Can Only Do its Job: Dragonfire AdeptWhy it Can Only Do its Job: SpellthiefWhy it Can Only Do its Job: MasterWhy it Can Only Do its Job: WarmageWhy it Can Only Do its Job: ScoutWhy it Can Only Do its Job: Dragon ShamanWhy it Can Only Do its Job: HexbladeWhy it Can Only Do its Job: SoheiWhy it Can Only Do its Job: NightstalkerWhy it Can Only Do its Job: MontebankWhy it Can Only Do its Job:
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 11:25:49 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:18 PM » |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:19:05 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:24 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 3a FactotumWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: WilderWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: BeguilerWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: WarbladeWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: Dread NecromancerWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: ShugenjaWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: SwordsageWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: BinderWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: Ranger (Wildshape variant)Why it Can Do More Than its Job: ArdentWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: CrusaderWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: BardWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: IncarnateWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: Psychic WarriorWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: ShadowcasterWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: DuskbladeWhy it Can Do More Than its Job: Psychic RogueWhy it Can Do More Than its Job:
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:56:31 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:36 PM » |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:19:22 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:42 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 2a PsionWhy it's So Powerful: Spirit ShamanWhy it's So Powerful: Sha'irWhy it's So Powerful: SorcererWhy it's So Powerful: Death MasterWhy it's So Powerful: Favored SoulWhy it's So Powerful: Wu JenWhy it's So Powerful: Binder (with Online Vestiges)Why it's So Powerful: MysticWhy it's So Powerful: Spirit ShamanWhy it's So Powerful: Before you disagree with the placement, I'll admit that this is my favorite class period.
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:58:29 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2011, 12:56:52 PM » |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:19:37 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2011, 12:57:02 PM » |
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Classes in Tier 1a "Erudite" variant Psion (with Spell to Power ACF)Why it Can Do Just About Anything: ArchivistWhy it Can Do Just About Anything: WizardWhy it Can Do Just About Anything: DruidWhy it Can Do Just About Anything: ClericWhy it Can Do Just About Anything: ArtificerWhy it Can Do Just About Anything:
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:59:02 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2011, 12:57:12 PM » |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:20:05 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2011, 12:57:41 PM » |
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Class Dip Length
What makes a dip? A dip is taking a few levels in another class in order to grab a bonus feat or other useful class feature before continuing to your main classes.
What stops a dip? Taking a few levels stops being a dip when a character can't get anything out of each level is simply 'waiting' for a class feature further down the line. This is what single-classed characters do, especially in wait of the best abilities from 17-20.
Aberrant Paragon: 1 if cleric, sorc, favored soul, psychic warrior, wilder, or warlock Aristocrat: 0, or 1 if playing ECL1 campaign where starting gold REALLY matters Adept: Archivist: Ardent: Artificer: Barbarian: Bard: Battledancer: 1 Beguiler: Binder: Cleric: Commoner: 0 or 1 if you want infinite chickens for the lulz Crusader: Dargonfire Adept: Death Master: Divine Mind: 1 Dragon Shaman: Dread Necromancer: Drow Paragon: Druid: Duskblade: Dwarf Paragon: Eidolon: 2 Eidoloncer: 1 Elf Paragon: Erudite: Expert: Factotoum: Favored Soul: Fighter: 2 or 4 with optimization, non-dungeoncrasher variant of course. Gnome Paragon: Half-Dragon Paragon: Half-Elf Paragon: Half-Orc Paragon: Halfling Paragon: Healer: 0 or 2 if you are cha-focused. Hexblade: Human Paragon: Incarnate: Jester: Knight: 0 or 2 with optimization. 3 if maneuvers are banned. Kobold Paragon: Lurk: Mariner: Marshall: Master: Mlar: 0. Falls behind sorc progression after level 4. Monk: 2 Montebank: Mystic: Ninja: 0 or 1 with optimization. 2 in an ECL2 campaign (whoever plays that?) Noble: Orc Paragon: Paladin: 2, or 3 with optimization. Up to 5 for sub-par supermounts. Psion: Psychic Rogue: Psychic Warrior: Ranger: Rogue: Samurai: 0 or 3 if you have high charisma and like sub-par weapons Savant: Scout: Sha'ir: Shadowcaster: Shugenja: Sohei: Sorcerer: Soulborn: 0 really, but 3 with optimization Soulknife: Spelltheif: Spirit Shaman: Swashbuckler: Swordsage: Tiefling Paragon: Totemist: Truenamer: 0 or 1 with optimization Warblade: Warlock: Warmage: Warrior: 0 Wilder: Wizard: Wu Jen:
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« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:03:53 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2011, 01:02:27 PM » |
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That should be all I need. Please be patient. I decided it was a bit too much to try to finish and post all at once - both in terms of organization and formatting. Expect information to slowly piddle in over today. I also expect there to be some copy-paste errors so if warblade shows up in tier one or something just point it out sans fanfare. If there is something you want me to add, I'll be happy to. I will probably drastically shorten it, though. 
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 06:20:56 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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Gavinfoxx
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2011, 02:05:24 PM » |
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Doesn't the Wild Shape, Arcane Hunter, Mystic, Sword of the Arcane Order, Shooting Star Ranger get to Tier 1, for levels 1-10 at least?
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BG's other resident furry!
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2011, 02:22:56 PM » |
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Doesn't the Wild Shape, Arcane Hunter, Mystic, Sword of the Arcane Order, Shooting Star Ranger get to Tier 1, for levels 1-10 at least? For those levels, compared to an unoptimized tier 1? Yes. But the tiers are compared 1-20 and with the same level of optimization.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 03:54:36 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r
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Garryl
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2011, 02:40:38 PM » |
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You have Wilder listed in both T2 and T3. Some of your book notations are inconsistent (Beguiler is PH2, but Duskblade is PHB2). Is DMC supposed to be Dragon Compendium? The closing bracket for Knight is missing. You're also missing the Kobold Paragon and Psychic Rogue in your list. They're both web only (Kobold Paragon is a web enhancement for RotD, Psy Rogue is a Mind's Eye article). In case you want them, here are the links for the classes available online:
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