Making Antagonists, and Curing Tactical Naievete

[Whisper]

I game with a large and varied group of mostly inexperienced players, and a GM who is far too reluctant to give a real challenge.

So, since I've been asked to spell him as Mister Cavern for our next adventure, I've decided to take the opportunity to educate both him and the other players about the possibility of tactics, and about how they might happen.

Levels vary from 5 to 9, stats often pretty amazing due to generous stat RNG scheme. (For example, my lowest stat is a 14.)

Right now, most of them are NTAAFD, and would be toast against any serious non-beatstick threat. The only tactical players are me (Warlock/Ur-priest/Edritch Disciple, with the Ur-Priest cheese making up for the Warlock fail) and the wizard, who knows enough to throw SoLs instead of Fireballs.

Since simply TPKing them as a lesson via evolution in action wouldn't work (they would see me as the problem, since the regular GM throws nothing but beatsticks who don't even focus fire), I've decided that I will begin their education with a weaker antagonist who fights smart.

So I'm building Sane Jack O'Hooligan (Rogue 7/Swashbuckler 3), and his band of outlaws, including his lieutenant, Small Paul (8th level beatstick of some sort, so called because he's about 7'2). I figure two PC-like villians of that level with lots of crunchy minions ought to be able to give a non-optimized party some tense moments if they fight smart enough.

In particular, I want to stage hit-and-run attacks, with the enemy striking from ambush, focusing on a vulnerable target and trying to bring it down quickly, then withdrawing the nanosecond combat turns against them. Pursuers will be lured into pitfalls and other traps. 

What I'm looking is some suggestions about how attackers like this can stay mobile and frustrate the enemy, as opposed to simply making big targets of themselves as they withdraw. Mostly this would be feats and items, since they have access to casters.

I'm thinking Eversmoking Bottle to foil targeting, plus Cape of the Mountebank/Boots of Big Stepping for the main two antagonists (minions will be archers firing from the trees). Also possibly a Ring of Invisibility for Jack, to help set up his sneak attacks (using Spiked Chain for reach). 

Any other fun ideas?

[Lycanthromancer]

Lots of tanglefoot bags, thunder stones, and other alchemical items. Have them throw jars of brown mold and fire flaming arrows. Swarms of trained attack mules and war-weasels. Caltrops and marbles to disparage pursuit. Rolling boulders downhill while people in the trees are dumping slick, flaming oil over their heads to slip them up and burn them. Ride trained dire weasels with lances, Spirited Charge, and Ride-By Attack.

Also, make them even lower level. Like 5th. Just so the party can see what's going on.

[Whisper]

Definitely tanglefoot bags and flaming arrows. I'm making brown mold too rare. Don't want it available as a weapon to PCs.

Also, since all of Sane Jack's men except Small Paul are halflings (he's a halfling supremacist who hates "biggers"), a trick I will use once or twice is to string a steel wire across a trail, neck high to a running human, then have the halflings "flee" right under it. Better make that difficult spot check.

Also, pits full of pungi stakes, caltrops, use of poison arrows, and some den full of nasty monsters that has learned to associate the sound of a particular whistle with the presence of tasty human prisoners. (Modification of an old safari guides' trick for making sure there were lions for their clients to shoot.)

Jack will have UMD maxed, with several wands of nasty low-level spells (Grease, etc). Small Paul will teach them object lessons on what the Power Attack feat is for.

[Lycanthromancer]

Oh, yes. Wands are great. Don't forget night-runs, so the PCs have torches and/or a fire going (especially if the weather is cold), then toss out some Pyrotechnics (which are good with flaming arrows/jars of flammable oil, too).

Make sure you use plenty of thrown weaponry. Halflings gain nice bonuses for using them (+1 Small, +1 Dex, +1 racial), and if you have a bunch of them using touch attacks (with sneak attack for good measure), then the PCs will probably get really annoyed really fast. Jars of hornets, etc.

Make sure you have them riding things, too, to overcome their -10 to land speed. Things with wings and burrow-speeds.

And speaking of burrow-speeds, Shot on the Run in sand, while riding dire badgers.

And have you considered clever uses of Silent Image to conceal traps and alter the landscape?

[Whisper]

Good ideas all.

I hadn't considered Silent Image... but that would be a hell of a thing to have on a wand.

Gonna skip the mounted stuff, though. They're outlaws who have to hide a lot, and also blend in with the local population (they've read their Chairman Mao... or whoever the medieval fantasy equivalent is).

Escape will be partially via preplanned routes around the traps, and knowledge of the local area. E.g. "They can run at full speed here, but if you try to, make lots of tough reflex saves or crash into trees."

Also, tunnels that medium creatures can't fit through.

Definitely the thrown weapons and jars of hornets. These last probably wouldn't deal real damage, but I'll make up some annoyance side effects, especially on concentration for spellcasters.

Sane Jack, of course, will have a human-bane weapon, for killing those damn filthy biggers.

Still have to figure out a build for Small Paul. I've decided that he speaks entirely in Shakespeare quotes. And secretly thinks that this is all just a play or story. (If they kill him, he will live long enough deliver an overacted Death Monologue(tm), which can only be stopped by something which destroys his head completely.) So maybe I'll give him a level or two of Bard, if I can figure out some way to make that mesh mechanics-wise with the giant-melee-optimized-beatstick thing.

[Sunic_Flames]

Yes, hit and running something as fast or faster than them will go great. Not to mention this is D&D, so there's no such thing as a disengage. With that said, if they're halflings, they can do fine in a straight up fight. Get some Fleshrakers in on that. Generally, kicking the party's ass with something several levels lower (Magebred Fleshraker with 12 HD is CR 5) will do the trick easily. Easily defeatable by any competent party, which means step it up or step on out.

[Whisper]

Sorry, Sunic.

This thread is about teaching people something, which means it's a Turing test. So I'm just not sure you can make a meaningful contribution.

I'll make you a nice mechanics question thread soon, I promise. Something you can really sink your teeth into. Something about using divine metamagic to craft wands, or something.

For the audience, however:

We're not talking about teaching people to make optimal characters. They're novices who don't have the time or inclination to read a whole bunch of sourcebooks (if they could even get their hands on them).

The point is to teach them to fight tactically with their unoptimized, mostly-core characters.

That's why I'm going after them with a core-only rogue, some kind of fighter, and a bunch of minionesque halflings. The point isn't to show them they are weaker than they should be, it's show them how something clearly weaker than them can hurt them, even beat them, by fighting smart, or at least smarter than "run at closest opponent and start hacking away".

If I mount the minions on Dire Badgers or something, the lesson is lost. Because they think "Oh, well, duh, he gave them shit we don't have".

If they get shot with arrows from the treeline, then try to pursue, only to discover that they can only run at half-speed through the heavy brush (the halflings, being small creatures familiar with the terrain, have no such impediment). Then they're led into the pit of pungi stakes which was the real point of the ambush... well, then they have to start thinking "Hey, they set us up. Let's not let them outthink us again."

The point is to beat them by fighting tactically with things they already know about, that they wouldn't even need to read the rules to think up. Everybody knows what a damn caltrop is. Everyone can figure out that focusing on one target at a time will drop them faster. Everyone knows that woodcrafty people might set snares.

The problem is that they are still thinking like this is a boardgame, with a limited set of options, instead of an RPG, where there's a GM to interpret any idea they come up with. And our usual GM has given them threats that can always be handled by running up and hacking away, so they've never had any incentive to do anything else.

You can't call someone "dumb" for failing to do something that isn't incentivized.

Dealing with a weaker foe who fights clever will make them start thinking about how they can fight clever, too. Pseudonatural Fiendish Dire Wolves (or whatever), created with a combination of three different spells they never heard of, not so much.

The idea I wish to introduce isn't any specific tactic. It's the idea of *having* some tactics.

[Sunic_Flames]

ITT: Whisper whines and flails in his usual incoherent way, while contradicting the fuck out of himself such as claiming that giving the super slow halflings mounts is giving them something they don't have, but making up some completely bullshit reason why the party's speed is halved (and still about the same as a goddamned halfling on foot) is not. Which of course means that he has no actual valid point of any kind, he's just whining and flailing like a skewed gyroscope.

Is it any surprise then that most people are not bothering to help the fuckwit? Because if it was before, it shouldn't be now.

Enjoy your derp group.

[veekie]

Dealing with a weaker foe who fights clever will make them start thinking about how they can fight clever, too. Pseudonatural Fiendish Dire Wolves (or whatever), created with a combination of three different spells they never heard of, not so much.

The idea I wish to introduce isn't any specific tactic. It's the idea of *having* some tactics.

That makes sense, and it does help engage them more closely in the fight when tactics is in play than when they're autoattacking. Of course, the trap is in use of terrain, while having enemies make use of terrain advantages is a good idea, PCs rarely have the opportunity to setup the field in advance, so it'd be best to build some terrain qualities that the players can benefit from.

[Whisper]

Sunic: Are you still here? I told you this thread was a Turing test. Sentient beings only. I made a nice rules mechanics thread for you to play in, so stop fussing.

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

[Sunic_Flames]

Sunic: Are you still here? I told you this thread was a Turing test. Sentient beings only. I made a nice rules mechanics thread for you to play in, so stop fussing.

Fuckwit, by your own standards you are barred from here. Die monster, you do not belong in this world!

Now be silent. Your betters are speaking.

Or continue to prove you are unworthy of assistance of any kind, save assistance in An Heroing. The choice is yours, fuckwit.

[veekie]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

[Ikeren]

So maybe I'll give him a level or two of Bard, if I can figure out some way to make that mesh mechanics-wise with the giant-melee-optimized-beatstick thing.

Force multipliers on large groups of weak foes is the most embarassing one.

Bard 2:
Give him Dragonfire Song or whatever the hell it is that makes songs do extra fire damage, +inspirational boost, +badge of valor. Suddenly, halflings do 3d6 fire damage. Because of a level 2 bard.

Bard 2: Inspire courage with the above (+3 attack/damage)

Cleric 1: Blessed Aim, Bless. (Don't stack)

These halflings now have no less than +9 ranged attacks if you're using slings and they have no BAB and dex of 10 +2 racial. Dealing 1d3+3d6+3 damage (avg 15). Throw in 10 of them. Target fire someone squishy. Laugh. Give some them rapid shot and short bows; it's +6/+6 for 1d4+3d6+3 damage (avg 15.5).  That's assuming nothing but commoner 1 halflings with dex of 10+2 racial. Or throw those oil flasks for touch attack goodness.

Cleric 3: Divine Protection (+1 ac/saves, SpC), Interfaith Blessing. (random bonus, CC)
Cleric 5: Mass Aid (Temp HP, attack bonus will block bless), recitation through the purification domain (+3 attack/ac/saves; of course all halflings worship Yondella)

You can probably find other force multipliers that make groups of worthless commoner 1's nasty for ~3 minutes. Which is really all you need.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes, hit and running something as fast or faster than them will go great. Not to mention this is D&D, so there's no such thing as a disengage. With that said, if they're halflings, they can do fine in a straight up fight. Get some Fleshrakers in on that. Generally, kicking the party's ass with something several levels lower (Magebred Fleshraker with 12 HD is CR 5) will do the trick easily. Easily defeatable by any competent party, which means step it up or step on out.

Actually, you can perform hit and run well, assuming you're familiar with the landscape and use it to your advantage. Perfectly doable, but it does take setup.

If you want to encourage tactics, as Veekie said, always always ALWAYS add in interesting terrain features that are exploitable, and have the NPCs exploit them if the PCs don't.

You may also want to make it obvious that the animals were bought and trained, with the suggestion that the PCs could do so too. Use ponies or dire badgers or whatever to bull-rush the PCs into traps (or a raging river). Have the big bad small horrid halflings climb up trees and trigger swinging rope-logs to deal damage and bull-rush. Rain volleys of acid flasks down on them. And when the PCs inevitably set fire to the trees (or just run), have the halflings swing to other trees on ropes they've set up for just that purpose.

Also, check out my take on Tucker's kobolds for some REALLY nasty ideas.

[Sunic_Flames]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

Well when it comes down to it, those are the only meaningful tactics, as fucking around with the light fixtures really just amounts to wasting your turn. Or maybe having your soul eaten by a Chandelure.

[Lycanthromancer]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

Well when it comes down to it, those are the only meaningful tactics, as fucking around with the light fixtures really just amounts to wasting your turn. Or maybe having your soul eaten by a Chandelure.

This is when my psion character would Time Hop one of the chandelier's links, to drop it on enemies to damage and entangle them.

[Whisper]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

Focus fire and flanking would be a nice start. Then maybe bringing a few things they can use.

The problem is not that they are stupid, it's that they're so new to this, most of them, that they don't even know it's acceptable for them to have good ideas, or that they need to, or that it's the funnest part.

As with novices, the round system has them somewhat confused. They don't really grasp that it's only six seconds. So they will do things like pour through a choke point rather than defend it, simply because they would have to let a single round go by where they didn't get to roll the dice and do damage.

Getting them to learn the system rules and know what works is Stage Two.

Getting them to try to think tactically in general, just to have ideas and try them out in the game, that's Stage One.

If I hit them with too much stage two stuff, they'll fail to learn, because they'll focus on the fact that it comes from the particular system ("WTF is Dragonfire Song?"), as opposed to realizing that the enemy is planning and they are not ("Hey, they're using sniper's perches! And slinging hornet's nests! These guys are prepared!").

Once they start thinking about things like "Let's not run after the diversion straight into a neck-high wire, instead let's use the wizard's bat familiar to scout out where their camp sites are!", THEN somebody will probably get the idea that maybe let's read and understand the D&D rules, as well.

So mechanically, I'll run it a bit like this:

Each X period of time they wander aimlessly in the forest, they will get hit with 1 improvised ambush. Good Spot/Listen checks might give them some warning.  Each improvised ambush, there is a small chance (Y%), that they have stumbled upon a prepared ambush site. This will have more permanent traps (pits, etc), where the improvised ones will only have traps which can be set up quickly.

If they try to track, they get opposed checks (because Jack's men are good at tracking and countertracking, too). Success will help them follow, bad failures will allow them to be led into prepared ambush sites.

If they use other means to find their quarry, such as divination or scouting with familiars, animal companions, some scent-tracking dogs they went and got, etc, these will generally have a pretty good chance of success. (That's them starting to think, and I want to reward that.)

Chasing hobbits through the underbrush will always be a bad idea. Many D&D players don't spend much time outside, and don't realize just how completely irrelevant top speed is when moving in unfamiliar terrain. Don't chase Br'er Rabbit into the thorn bush just because the rules say your run speed is faster. I'll make sure the players have adequate hints that the savage runts know every inch of this ground, and have escape routes picked out already.

If they are smart, and gather intelligence rather than charging in, they will be able to locate favored camp sites, sources of fresh water, local villages who are sympathetic and provide support, etc. Then they will be able to set some ambushes of their own.

Stage One is getting them to think like Gary Brecher and Chairman Mao. Stage Two is getting them to exploit opportunities that the rules provide ("Hmmmm, Eversmoking Bottle + Blindfold of True Darkness = win"). Stage Three is them figuring out how to build characters that don't suck.

[veekie]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

Well when it comes down to it, those are the only meaningful tactics, as fucking around with the light fixtures really just amounts to wasting your turn. Or maybe having your soul eaten by a Chandelure.

This is when my psion character would Time Hop one of the chandelier's links, to drop it on enemies to damage and entangle them.

And don't forget setting the hall on fire. Because where would you be without an out of control fire in a crowded hall which has a battle royale going on?

[Sunic_Flames]

Veekie: True, but if they start trying to imitate the enemies' tactics, they will have missed the point. The point is to get them to say, "Hey, let's *have* some tactics."

Yeah, but tactics require things to exploit. If its a 60ft radius room with level ground and even lighting, then they're down to focused fire and flanking, as well as BFC if they came with any. If it's a dining hall with a hanging chandelier and  tables all over the place you add cover and exploitable terrain effects to the menu.

Well when it comes down to it, those are the only meaningful tactics, as fucking around with the light fixtures really just amounts to wasting your turn. Or maybe having your soul eaten by a Chandelure.

This is when my psion character would Time Hop one of the chandelier's links, to drop it on enemies to damage and entangle them.

Because Entangling Ectoplasm isn't cheaper? Oh wait...

[Lycanthromancer]

And don't forget setting the hall on fire. Because where would you be without an out of control fire in a crowded hall which has a battle royale going on?

Ahem.