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Author Topic: It's Time To Duel  (Read 15531 times)
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Solo
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zhangzidong
« on: March 24, 2011, 10:03:27 PM »

Alright, so I had the recent and unique insight that the Duelist prestige class synergies with the Monk. Behold what can be done when you put these two powerful character options together, for it shall make even the mightiest wizard quake in his boots!

The thought occurred to me when I realized that the Duelist was the only other core class than the monk which received a mental stat to AC, namely Int. Obviously, if you made a character focused on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence, you could get sky-high AC and be nigh-invulnerable in combat. Thus I propose the following build for anyone who enjoys swashbuckling combat in a high-stakes environment.

Class progression: Monk6/Fighter2/Paladin2/Duelist10
Race: Human
Feats:
Monk bonus: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
Fighter Bonus: Dodge, Mobility
Character: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse,  Improved Natural Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Spring Attack, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting

With this setup, you will have +18 BAB, which is only 2 less than that of an 20th level Fighter, meaning you won't have any trouble when it comes to hitting. Moreover, your defense will be outstanding. Not only is your regular AC high, but your touch AC will be phenomenal.

Assuming a total score of 26, 22, 22 in Dex, Int, and Wis respectively, AC when fighting defensively can be as high as:
8 (Dex)+ 6 (Int) + 6 (Wis) + 2 (Monk AC bonus) +1 (Haste) +5 (Bracers of Armor) + 5 (Deflection) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 5 (Defending) +5 (Combat Expertise) +3 (fighting defensively with 5 ranks in Tumble) + 10 (Duelist class bonus when fighting defensively) = 57 (Touch 52)

Assumed equipment: Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, Ioun Stone, +5 Defending Kama, various Tomes.

When you compare this to high level monsters such as a Balor or Pit Fiend, with attack bonuses of +33 and +30 respectively, we can see that they are simply unable to be hit by either of them except on a natural 20. This is an incredible asset in combat because it makes you nearly invincible.

Now, a Duelist won't be able to deal much damage, but you're not playing a Duelist to kick ass in the same way a Barbarian does, you're doing it for the roleplaying potential. Besides, there are so many other roles in battle to fill; a Duelist's main strength is mobility, so it would be a good idea to capitalize on that. Spring Attack, tumble, and Mobility allow you to run around the battlefield at top speed thanks to your unarmored status, dealing damage wherever it is needed to support the main melee combatants and providing a critical flanking bonus so that the rogue can sneak attack should he wind up in an unfavorable position. In addition, you can stun enemies with your Stunning Fist attack, whose DC will be through the roof since Wisdom is an important stat for this build. This is truly a superior supporting character for the battlefield that not even a Bard can rival.

Since your reflex saves would be through the roof, you will never fail a reflex save. Since you have evasion, that means a wizard could cast Fireball at you all day without you breaking so much as a sweat. If he chooses to cast ray spells, he'll miss horribly, since not even True Strike would enable a ray to hit. Fortitude saves will be a cinch to make due to getting a great fortitude progression from the fighter, paladin and monk, as well as Cha to saves; likewise, the monk's good will saves coupled with high wisdom and the paladin's save bonus means that will saves will be trivial to pass as well. Anything else can obviously be handled by a simple Mantle of Spell Resistance combined with a Ring of Blinking, so you aren't even there half the time!

Admittedly, a Magic Missile spell can still target you if you're on the Etheral Plane, but a simple wand of Shield can solve that problem. Due to your high Int, you will have more skill points than you know what to deal with, so having cross class ranks in UMD is entirely possible. Combined with the Charisma you have for saves, you'll easily be able to make the DC20 UMD check to activate a wand.

It's worth noting that since activating a wand has a flat DC, you could use wands of other spells to augment your fighting capability. If you find that there is not enough cash in your coffers after boosting your Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha, then a few partially charged wands may make for a good investment, like buying used cars.

This is how you make a truly fearsome magekiller! Wield carefully this power you now hold in your hand, for knowledge is a double edged, two bladed sword with spikes on the handle.



« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 03:58:27 PM by Solo » Logged


"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.
Ras F
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 10:08:22 PM »

I laughed. Clap
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 10:10:41 PM »

Winning
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Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 10:12:05 PM »

Solo, stop wasting your brainpower on the Monk and finish the Truenamer Handbook.


Again!
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BeholderSlayer
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 10:19:19 PM »

Winning
Winning, Duh

Needs moar Arcane Duelist and Battledancer.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 10:20:57 PM by BeholderSlayer » Logged

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Phoenix00
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 10:58:26 PM »

Needs 2 levels of Paladin with the variant that changes Saves to AC for Divine Grace.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 12:46:36 AM »

Needs 2 levels of Paladin with the variant that changes Saves to AC for Divine Grace.
It has 2 levels of paladin.


Needs more core stuff.

Saves
Fort: +25 = 5 (monk) + 2 (fighter) + 2 (paladin) + 3 (duelist) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) + 1 (competence) + 1 (racial) + 5 (charisma) + ? (constitution)
Refl: +34 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fighter) + 0 (paladin) + 7 (duelist) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) + 1 (competence) + 1 (racial) + 5 (charisma) + 9 (dexterity)
Will: +27 = 5 (monk) + 0 (fighter) + 0 (paladin) + 3 (duelist) + 5 (resistance) + 1 (luck) + 1 (competence) + 1 (racial) + 5 (charisma) + 6 (wisdom)
Core monster save DCs top out at DC 27 or so meaning it has near immunity to spells that allow saves. Also immune to spells that check SR via rod. Needs some more tweaking yet.

Goal: Beat the PC's save DC on a roll of 2.
Player's Spell Save DCs: 35 = 10 (base) + 9 (spell level) + 14 (ability) + 1 (spell focus) + 1 (greater spell focus).
Max Ability Score: 39 (+14) = 18 (base) + 2 (racial) + 5 (level) + 5 (inherent) + 3 (age) + 6 (enchantment).


AC
AC 77 (55) = +1 (size=halfing) + 9 (dex) + 6 (int) + 6 (int) + 8 (armor) + 9 (animated tower shield) + 5 (deflection) + 5 (natural.enhancement) +1 (insight) + 2 (monk) + 1 (dodge) + 5 (defending) + 5 (combat expertise) + 3 (fighting defensively) + 10 (duelist) + 1 (haste)
The Tarrasque has +52 to attack, you now ignore it.

Equipment
Monk's Belt, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Armor, Ring of Deflection, Necklace of Natural Armor, Ioun Stone(dusty rose), Ioun Stone(pale green), +5 Defending Kama, +5 Animated Tower Shield, Luckstone, Cloak of Resistance +5, Rod of Absorption, and don't forget the Ring of Freedom of Movement!
Given that a monk can attack with any part of their body, who cares if both hands are full?

Edit: tweaked some numbers.
Edit 2: Maybe drop Stunning Fist & Improved Natural Attack for Great Fortitude & Iron Will? 27/29 fort/will. Hmm...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 01:23:07 AM by SorO_Lost » Logged

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
gorfnad
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2011, 01:56:34 AM »

I made a similar build for my wife in our current campaign. However the saving throws on this build are not as good.

Human or Strongheart Halfling Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Thief Acrobat 5/ Duelist 10 (BAB 17 at 20th level)
Feats:
1. Carmendine Monk, Combat Expertise, Dodge (Cobra Strike Monk)
2. Mobility (Cobra Strike Monk)
3. EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
6. Deadly Defense
9. Einhander
12. Combat Reflexes
15. Robilars Gambit
18. Karmic Strike (or maybe Spring Attack)
19. Deflect Arrows (Duelist)
Trait: Cautious

Assume Int 30 and Dex 30 (easy enough with decent starting scores of 16 in one stat and 18 in the other stat, tomes, leveling, and magic items)

At 20

Fighting Defensive Total = +2 (Broadblade Shortsword pre-errata version Wink) + 4 (15 ranks in Tumble see Oriental Adventures and other sources) + 1 (Cautious Trait) + 2 (Einhander) + 3 (Thief Acrobat) +10 (Duelist) = 22

Total AC when Fighting Defensively without any other bonuses to armor from magic
10 Base + 10 Int (Carmendine) + 10 Dex + 10 Int (Duelist) + 22 (see above) = 66

Total AC when Fighting Defensively with other magic items
10 Base + 10 Int (Carmendine) + 10 Dex + 10 Int (Duelist) + 22 (see above) + 5 (Bracers of AC) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5
(Amulet of Natural Armor) + 5 (Defending Weapon Enhancement) + 2 (Vest of Defense) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 5 (Combat Expertise) = AC 90, Touch AC of 80?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 02:00:16 AM by gorfnad » Logged

Mixster
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 02:21:48 AM »

Yeah, when is the truenamer handbook finished?

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2011, 02:50:05 AM »

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It actually weakens the monk.  He's missing out on the best capstone in the game.  There is no reason not to take monk to 20.  What's this duelist going to do when he's thrown off a cliff?  A monk 20 just laughs and is all "I'm a magic creature" to boot. Wink
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Solo
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Solo the Sorcelator, at your service

zhangzidong
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2011, 02:58:23 AM »

Quote
Yeah, when is the truenamer handbook finished?
When the king returns.
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"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.
Mixster
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2011, 03:05:01 AM »

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It actually weakens the monk.  He's missing out on the best capstone in the game.  There is no reason not to take monk to 20.  What's this duelist going to do when he's thrown off a cliff?  A monk 20 just laughs and is all "I'm a magic creature" to boot. Wink

Yeah,
Solo, it was a nice attempt at bringing the Monk down in line with the druid and the wizard, but multiclassing with the ├╝berprestige Duellist is just silly. Monk 20 is plain better.
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2011, 03:17:30 AM »

Quote
Yeah, when is the truenamer handbook finished?
When the king returns.

The Greys aren't giving Elvis back, now get back to work.
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Solo
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Solo the Sorcelator, at your service

zhangzidong
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2011, 03:18:41 AM »

I made a similar build for my wife in our current campaign.
There's easier ways to get a divorce.
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"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.
JaronK
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2011, 03:46:51 AM »

Solo, there's no way this could work, as you've failed to account for the mage's most powerful class feature.  How are you going to defeat his familiar?

JaronK
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2011, 04:01:51 AM »

Solo, there's no way this could work, as you've failed to account for the mage's most powerful class feature.  How are you going to defeat his familiar?

JaronK

Obviously hes just going to run around the battlefield since the familiar can never hit him with his invincible AC. Truly, a character thats just too powerful for most games  Rolls Eyes
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2011, 07:01:04 AM »

Why?! 
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 07:21:33 AM »

Alright, so I had the recent and unique insight that the Duelist prestige class works very well with the Monk. Behold what can be done when you put these two powerful character options together, for it shall make even the mightiest wizard quake in his boots!

The thought occured to me when I realized that the Duelist was the only other core class than the monk which received a mental stat to AC, namely Int. Obviously, if you made a character focused on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence, you could get sky-high AC and be nigh-invulnerable in combat. Thus I propose the following build for anyone who enjoys swashbuckling combat in a high-stakes environment.

Why not add some total cheese and throw in several levels of battledancer?  That gets you charisma to AC, and that means you can have a charisma focus and be the party face.
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 11:02:14 AM »

Alright, so I had the recent and unique insight that the Duelist prestige class works very well with the Monk. Behold what can be done when you put these two powerful character options together, for it shall make even the mightiest wizard quake in his boots!

The thought occured to me when I realized that the Duelist was the only other core class than the monk which received a mental stat to AC, namely Int. Obviously, if you made a character focused on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Intelligence, you could get sky-high AC and be nigh-invulnerable in combat. Thus I propose the following build for anyone who enjoys swashbuckling combat in a high-stakes environment.

Why not add some total cheese and throw in several levels of battledancer?  That gets you charisma to AC, and that means you can have a charisma focus and be the party face.
You're already taking a good portion of the spotlight away from your frontliner and stepping on the expert's toes. That level of cheese would just start making other players feel useless.
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AleksanderTheGreat
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 11:19:23 AM »

This makes me wanna play a Monk/Duelist. Damn you Solo! Shake fist
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Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.
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