JohnnyMayHymn
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 503
Lord of the Kitchen Sink
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2011, 05:52:11 PM » |
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Ok np, that just provides evidence that the CR system doesn't scale well with class features...  |
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My (sometimes offensive) Web Comic Faux BlastCan you find the Wumpus? (Hint: start with the spoiler....) ...........  |
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dark_samuari
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2011, 05:59:10 PM » |
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Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.
You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
I'm sorry, but this is the most hilarious thing I've read all day. Even in context, it makes no sense whatsoever. Bravo, sir. I have recently been taking levels in Tainted Scholar. |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2011, 07:00:26 PM » |
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Ok np, that just provides evidence that the CR system doesn't scale well with class features... Gestalt is not a class feature. If there were actual comprehensive rules about gestalt at all in the first place, and comprehensive rules about CR for gestalt, then I might consider it. But as it is, I would have to start by making up my own rules for gestalt, then my own rules for gestalt CR, and then I wouldn't be demonstrating anything about the actual game, I'd be demonstrating something about my houserules, and frankly, I have much better houserules, such that if I wanted to demonstrate something about them, I would not use some gestalt houserules made up in 30 minutes in response to your request. |
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X-Codes
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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2011, 07:46:27 PM » |
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I'm kinda tempted to play that Fighter/Dragon Shaman/Factotum/Favored Soul idea...
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Amechra
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« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2011, 09:16:32 PM » |
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Y'know, if you synergized that right...
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Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn." Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn." Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn." Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me." On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me. probably over on "Off-topic". might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post. This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". |
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Nachofan99
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« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2011, 10:48:07 AM » |
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In addition, situational modifiers change CR, RAW. So if I hamstring myself and don't have an arcane caster or divine caster or all the other factors that say "having this makes the fight easier" - I should expect to face significantly lower CR's. Will that be that case?
That is the most phenomenally retarded thing I have read today. And I just got done arguing with someone who's seriously claiming that using a tower shield to hide you and all your gear (including said tower shield) is less immersion-breaking than opposed skill checks. Not having a Wizard isn't a situational modifier. Fighting a water elemental underwater is a situational modifier. Thanks for calling me retarded. Open your DMG to page 50. Read the entire section called "Difficulty Factors". Yes, perhaps I used the wrong label and instead of "situational modifier" I should have said "Difficulty Factor". That's no excuse for calling someone retarded. Not having certain classes does in fact make fights harder and that's explicitly what the rules say. |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2011, 12:59:41 PM » |
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In addition, situational modifiers change CR, RAW. So if I hamstring myself and don't have an arcane caster or divine caster or all the other factors that say "having this makes the fight easier" - I should expect to face significantly lower CR's. Will that be that case?
That is the most phenomenally retarded thing I have read today. And I just got done arguing with someone who's seriously claiming that using a tower shield to hide you and all your gear (including said tower shield) is less immersion-breaking than opposed skill checks. Not having a Wizard isn't a situational modifier. Fighting a water elemental underwater is a situational modifier. Thanks for calling me retarded. Open your DMG to page 50. Read the entire section called "Difficulty Factors". Yes, perhaps I used the wrong label and instead of "situational modifier" I should have said "Difficulty Factor". That's no excuse for calling someone retarded. Not having certain classes does in fact make fights harder and that's explicitly what the rules say. So making a Party of Wizard/Druid/Beguiler/Wizard should get you way easier fights, because you don't have a Rogue, Fighter, or Cleric. Or you know, that's rules for making a fun game, and has no bearing on the balance of classes, which is what this is about. Doing that would negate our ability to derive conclusions about class balance from the results. |
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Echoes
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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2011, 02:07:33 PM » |
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Thanks for calling me retarded. Open your DMG to page 50. Read the entire section called "Difficulty Factors". Yes, perhaps I used the wrong label and instead of "situational modifier" I should have said "Difficulty Factor". That's no excuse for calling someone retarded. Not having certain classes does in fact make fights harder and that's explicitly what the rules say. Where did I call you retarded? Show me the quote. I said your statement was retarded, which it was. If you can't tell the difference between criticism of your words and personal attacks, that's on you. Protip: just because you say something stupid doesn't mean you are automatically stupid. It does mean that other people get to call you on your stupid statements when you make them in public. Just to make things clear, this is what you said: In addition, situational modifiers change CR, RAW. So if I hamstring myself and don't have an arcane caster or divine caster or all the other factors that say "having this makes the fight easier" - I should expect to face significantly lower CR's. Will that be that case?
Emphasis mine. This is what the DMG, pg 50 says: None of the above factors should necessarily be taken into account when assigning or modifying Challenge Ratings, but you should keep them in mind when designing encounters. See the difference? |
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Mixster
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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2011, 02:29:02 PM » |
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How about long time buffs? Will they be able to be up for all the encounters in case of a 4 encounter per day thingie? EDIT: Oh and how about Beholder Mage? EDIT2: Spell point system acceptable? |
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« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 02:39:23 PM by Mixster »
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2011, 02:43:13 PM » |
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How about long time buffs? Will they be able to be up for all the encounters in case of a 4 encounter per day thingie? EDIT: Oh and how about Beholder Mage? EDIT2: Spell point system acceptable? Are you allergic to actual D&D or something? Long term buffs may or may not be up for some number of encounters, depending on the buff durations and the situations. |
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Mixster
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« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2011, 03:03:44 PM » |
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How about long time buffs? Will they be able to be up for all the encounters in case of a 4 encounter per day thingie? EDIT: Oh and how about Beholder Mage? EDIT2: Spell point system acceptable? Are you allergic to actual D&D or something? Long term buffs may or may not be up for some number of encounters, depending on the buff durations and the situations. So assuming a 20 hour buff to be up all day is allright? |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2011, 03:25:54 PM » |
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So assuming a 20 hour buff to be up all day is allright?
As an assumption you make when building your character, it's a pretty good one, seeing as most situations will result in the PCs facing all four encounters in under 20 hours, barring something weird like getting lost in a maze (I don't intend to make any mazes) or trying to five minute workday everything. |
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Mixster
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« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2011, 03:30:06 PM » |
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So assuming a 20 hour buff to be up all day is allright?
As an assumption you make when building your character, it's a pretty good one, seeing as most situations will result in the PCs facing all four encounters in under 20 hours, barring something weird like getting lost in a maze (I don't intend to make any mazes) or trying to five minute workday everything. Yeah, and I'd also assume my party slept in a rope trick after 16 hours in a maze anyway. You say there is no calling spells. Do you mean just Conjuration Calling or all summoning spells as well? How about Minions? Would a Cleric be able to bring a group of his undead buddies with him? Assuming he's already paid for them. |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2011, 04:26:50 PM » |
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You say there is no calling spells. Do you mean just Conjuration Calling or all summoning spells as well? I mean Lesser, regular, and Greater Planar Binding, Gate, any variation of Planar Binding, and probably some other stuff, which I'll know when I see it. If there are any calling effects that don't call in creatures, they are probably fine. And if there are summoning effects that act like these, they are probably banned. Everything but Gate on that list is a hassle for me as the DM, and Gate is absurdly broken. How about Minions? Would a Cleric be able to bring a group of his undead buddies with him? Assuming he's already paid for them. People can use Animate Dead, spend some of their WBL on their current crop of minions. Clerics are not allowed to have Rebuked anything, especially not your infinite shadow army. If you are using any manner of undead gaining besides Animate Dead, I probably won't allow it, and even with Animate Dead, you can only have things that I consider you could realistically killed or otherwise obtained the corpse of. Which will be purely subjective and enforced by DM fiat. It's mostly about making things easier on me, but I might also demonstrate some of the problems of undead armies that might come up. |
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Mixster
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« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2011, 06:06:57 PM » |
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Ok I'll submit a party that's halfway between 10th and 11th level with experience. Count them as CR 10.5 if you must.
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2011, 06:09:49 PM » |
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And what are you going to use that XP for?
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Mixster
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« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2011, 06:31:04 PM » |
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And what are you going to use that XP for?
Necropolitan, Also because I don't want to waste a feat on tomb tainted soul. |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Kaelik
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« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2011, 06:35:05 PM » |
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You cannot exceed WBL in any way. So you can take a bunch of feats, and tell me how much XP you spent on Psychic Reformation, and crafting items, and you can still not have any items more than anyone else who didn't take those feats or spend that XP. |
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Kajhera
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« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2011, 06:38:45 PM » |
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You cannot exceed WBL in any way. So you can take a bunch of feats, and tell me how much XP you spent on Psychic Reformation, and crafting items, and you can still not have any items more than anyone else who didn't take those feats or spend that XP. Not the best place to use an artificer then.  |
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