And What LA Would You Call These Races?

[bkdubs123]

Treant Racial Traits
• +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity - Treants are resilient and devoted, but their unique composition leaves them ponderous and slow.
• Large size
• A Treant's base land speed is 20', but Treants can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
• Humanoid type
• Low-Light Vision.
• Treants are Vulnerable to Fire, but possess Cold Resistance 5
• A Treant that spends at least 4 hours each day in direct sunlight has no need to eat, but must still sleep as normal. A Treant who doesn't get enough sunlight must eat to make up the difference. A Treant has no need to breathe.
• A Treant possesses a unique form of Wild Empathy - it may only use it to improve the attitude of Plant creatures. Even unintelligent plants may be influenced in this way. A Treant adds its total HD plus its Charisma modifier to the check.
• Treants have a +2 racial bonus to Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
• Treant Biology - A Treant is immune to disease, poison and sleep, and also has a 25% chance to ignore critical hits or sneak attacks. At 5 HD, a Treant is immune to phantasms and patterns, to polymorph effects, and has a 50% chance to ignore critical hits or sneak attacks. At 10 HD, a Treant is immune to charms and compulsions as well as stunning and paralysis. Further, it has a 75% chance to ignore critical hits or sneak attacks. At 15 HD, a Treant is no longer Vulnerable to Fire, it is immune to Cold and critical hits, it has Regeneration 5 overcome by fire damage, and may use a Regenerate effect 3/day as the spell, but as an extraordinary ability. Just like casting the spell, the Treant may use this effect on creatures other than himself.
• Favored Class: Incarnate and Crusader.

for comparison

Half-Orc Racial Traits
• +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence - As consummate hunters, Half-Orcs are possessed of savage power and agility but they rely on natural cunning rather than logical thought.
• Medium size.
• 40' land speed.
• Humanoid Type
• Lowlight vision.
• Scent (Ex)
• Half-Orcs have a +2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Orc Ferocity - A half-orc gains a +2 competence bonus to caster level and to attack and damage rolls as long as it's at or below 50% of its hit points but only in situations where it would normally be unable to take 10 on checks. At 5 HD, a half-orc may Rage 1/day as a Barbarian, though it may cast spells with a casting time no longer than a standard action during this rage. At 10 HD, a half-orc gains a +2 competence bonus to caster level and to attack and damage rolls for 1 round whenever it is dealt damage by a creature hostile toward it and only in situations where it would normally be unable to take 10 on check. Further, when an orc casts a spell of the abjuration, conjuration, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation school while raging, the save DC for the spell increases by +2. At 15 HD, a half-orc may Rage 3/day and the save DC of abjuration, conjuration, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation spells cast while raging increases by +4.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Orcish. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, and Giant.
• Favored Class: Barbarian and Druid.

[JaronK]

What LA are you making Half Orcs with those stats?

Anyway, that Treant is obviously very solid for a Druid (looks downright made for wild shape).  Not a half bad Cleric either.  Basically, perfect stats for wisdom casters, which is obviously better than perfect stats for hitting stuff.  So, not really a good comparison.  But the Treant would be too weak as LA+1, so I'd say strong LA 0.

JaronK

[bkdubs123]

What LA are you making Half Orcs with those stats?

LA +0, sorry. That would be my intention at least. I asked the question though to see if there was much difference in the LA the charops would assign to either race.

Basically, perfect stats for wisdom casters, which is obviously better than perfect stats for hitting stuff.  So, not really a good comparison.

Gotcha, but hopefully we can assume a middle Tier 3 game, so that those differences are less pronounced.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So in other words at level 10 half-orcs get a free +2 to CL whenever they're out of combat?

[bkdubs123]

So in other words at level 10 half-orcs get a free +2 to CL whenever they're out of combat?

"At 10 HD, a half-orc gains a +2 circumstance bonus to caster level and to attack and damage rolls for 1 round whenever it is dealt damage."

Um... no, no that doesn't sound anything at all remotely similar to what you're suggesting. Even if he bought a hireling to prick him with a needle for 1 damage every 6 seconds, out of combat he's looking at losing 10hp per minute, which is a lot.

Anyway, I'll edit it so that it only gets the bonuses to caster level when dealt damage by a hostile creature and only in situations where he would normally be unable to take 10 on skill checks.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Um... no, no that doesn't sound anything at all remotely similar to what you're suggesting. Even if he bought a hireling to prick him with a needle for 1 damage every 6 seconds, out of combat he's looking at losing 10hp per minute, which is a lot.

At level 10?  That's less than one charge of a wand of lesser vigor, and you never specified it had to be lethal damage.

Personally, I'd make the condition based upon dealing lethal damage to an opponent while raging, or something along those lines.  I don't like a mechanic that incentives "leave those trash mobs alone so they can hit the sorcerer", rather then "let the sorcerer beat up these trash mobs"

[bkdubs123]

At level 10?  That's less than one charge of a wand of lesser vigor, and you never specified it had to be lethal damage.

How else are you dealing yourself 1 damage per round out of combat? Regardless, with the changes made it makes no difference.

Personally, I'd make the condition based upon dealing lethal damage to an opponent while raging, or something along those lines.  I don't like a mechanic that incentives "leave those trash mobs alone so they can hit the sorcerer", rather then "let the sorcerer beat up these trash mobs"

It's supposed to be about getting pissed because somebody just hit you. Also, I don't like the idea of a mechanic that basically just happens automatically. Your suggestion would basically give the Half-Orc +2 to caster level, attacks, and damage all the time because whether he's blasting or greataxe-ing he's going to be dealing damage every round.

[Kaelik]

1) Both LA 0.

2) The Half Orc abilities are pretty not good. Adding a bunch of little stuff that makes everything fiddly is not good. It should either be an always on bonus, or a bonus that is straight up either now or not now, and doesn't change a lot (IE only under 50%).

And all your little attempts to prevent them from being able to gain CL bonuses out of combat aren't going to happen, you should either let them have CL bonuses out of combat, or actually write "This bonus only applies to combat, you jerks, or I, the MC, will punch you." Because nothing stops them from getting a hapless kitten, turning it hostile, then letting it wail away to under 50%, then getting +2 CL while casting all their buffs, then healing, and that exact same process gives a +4 bonus at level 10. Just give it something like "+2 to checks to beat SR, and +2 to CL of any spell they cast which does damage when under 50% health (or later, after taking damage)" because that's probably going to give you the same effect you want (IE, not fighting cats for better buffs) but is way less work to track.

[bkdubs123]

1) Both LA 0.

That's good. That's two votes saying that they are equal LA.

2) [...]+2 to checks to beat SR, and +2 to CL of any spell they cast which does damage when under 50% health (or later, after taking damage)" because that's probably going to give you the same effect you want (IE, not fighting cats for better buffs) but is way less work to track.

This I don't understand. a) how is that even any different than what the existing mechanic already does? b) how is adding something else to track way less work to track?

[Epimetheus]

They're too strong for LA 0. I'd make them LA 1.

Half-orc seems comparable to (maybe better than) Catfolk, and Treant's large size is similar to Goliath's powerful build. Goliath doesn't really get anything else, while Treant gets a form of wild empathy and more bonus abilities. Catfolk may have more overall stat boosts, but half-orcs end up with Scent, and this Ferocity thing.

[sir_argenon]

why would half orc get any bonuses at all to CL ? they have never historically been magically inclined. 

that ability feels like its just being tossed in for no reason.

[bkdubs123]

why would half orc get any bonuses at all to CL ? they have never historically been magically inclined. 

that ability feels like its just being tossed in for no reason.

1) Because I want to make all of the races appeal to as many different character types as I feasibly can.

2) Because getting pissed off ought to allow you to hit harder with spells as well as greataxes, and what better race to showcase such a mechanic than the Half-Orc?

[Kaelik]

This I don't understand. a) how is that even any different than what the existing mechanic already does? b) how is adding something else to track way less work to track?

a) because that way, they can't take a bunch of damage in order to get better buff spells out of combat, which is I assume, why you made all those conditions b) Because it doesn't add more to track, it replaces what you are currently tracking. By limiting the CL to only do the offensive things you wanted it to do, it means you don't have to start whining about henchmen pin attacks out of combat, or fighting cats while you cast buffs.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

2) Because getting pissed off ought to allow you to hit harder with spells as well as greataxes, and what better race to showcase such a mechanic than the Half-Orc?

How about you add a bonus to spell damage while raging, then?

It doesn't really make much sense to say "I'm so pissed off I'm going to cure your wounds better!"

[Carnap]

2) Because getting pissed off ought to allow you to hit harder with spells as well as greataxes, and what better race to showcase such a mechanic than the Half-Orc?

How about you add a bonus to spell damage while raging, then?

It doesn't really make much sense to say "I'm so pissed off I'm going to cure your wounds better!"

My anger unlocks my untapped potential. You can downplay wilder's wild surge as kind of rage and it also increases your CL (in this case ML).

[bkdubs123]

How about you add a bonus to spell damage while raging, then?

It doesn't really make much sense to say "I'm so pissed off I'm going to cure your wounds better!"

I dunno, that makes sense to me. The alternative, a bonus to spell damage, ignores the countless offensive, yet not damage dealing, spells. Which is a pity, especially because blasting is really, really bad.

@Kaelik: The current mechanic operates exactly like you're saying. At or under 50% they get the bonus and later (10HD) they get the bonus for 1 round after taking damage.
Seriously, how is -

"+2 to checks to beat SR, and +2 to CL of any spell they cast which does damage when under 50% health (or later, after taking damage)"

- operationally any different than -

"A half-orc gains a +2 competence bonus to caster level and to attack and damage rolls as long as it's at or below 50% of its hit points"

- other than yours only benefits blaster casters?

I am seeing the point of what you're suggesting now, but it's so much more limiting in scope that, really, it becomes a pretty damned terrible racial feature. Great. An extra 2d6 damage with Polar Ray. I'm not whining about henchmen with needles or fighting kittens. I don't really care about all that. That stuff doesn't actually happen in games. The only reason I made the changes was to clear up any misconceptions readers might have.

[Rejakor]

Both races are LA + 0.  WotC would make them LA+1, because +2 +2 -2, and also, because they are derps.

Warforged get similar immunities to treants.

Half-orcs get fiddly minor bonuses (except for rage), and i'd still prefer to play a kalashtar.


About orc random bonuses - the 'when can't take 10' thing is good enough for me.  Makes it unfeasibly hard to use as a herp derp CL increaser for buffing, as it knocks it into the realm of dm fiat.

That said, giving them better rage seems more useful than random little +1s or +2s.  Giving them rage when over 50% health, and Greater Rage / +CL when under it seems like a better option.

[bkdubs123]

About orc random bonuses - the 'when can't take 10' thing is good enough for me.  Makes it unfeasibly hard to use as a herp derp CL increaser for buffing, as it knocks it into the realm of dm fiat.

That's what I was thinking myself. Sure, it's a little clunky to read through, but after reading it just once you understand that your bonuses only apply during a very specific type of encounter.

That said, giving them better rage seems more useful than random little +1s or +2s.  Giving them rage when over 50% health, and Greater Rage / +CL when under it seems like a better option.

This has been my one nagging concern with the Half-Orc. The Rage doesn't scale that well for meleers. I'm open to suggestions in this department, and the above gives me an idea that might work well. I'll be working on it.

EDIT: In fact, how's this sound?

Orc Ferocity - At or below 50% of its total hit points and in stressful situations that would prevent it from taking 10, the half-orc gains a +4 morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity as well as a +2 morale bonus to caster level. This bonus to Dexterity benefits the half-orc's initiative rolls in situations where the half-orc is not surprised. At 5 HD, a half-orc may Rage 1/day as a Barbarian, though it may cast spells with a casting time no longer than a standard action during this rage. At 10 HD, a half-orc may Rage 2/day. Furthermore, the morale bonuses it gains while at or below 50% of its total hit points increase to +6 to Strength, +6 to Dexterity, and +3 to caster level. While raging or while at or below 50% of its total hit points the half-orc gets a +2 bonus to the save DCs of abjuration, conjuration, evocation, necromancy, or transmutation spells it casts. At 15 HD, a half-orc may Rage 3/day as Greater Rage and while raging and at or below 50% of its hit points its bonus to save DCs increases to +4.