Nytemare's Class Rewrites: Barbarian

[Bloody Initiate]

What a crime, a combat class able to stand up against a level appropriate enemy for more than one round.

There's a difference between being able to stand up to an enemy, and being able to stand up for six or seven rounds without any help from a cleric.

...a cleric that has to overcome SR 48 to assist the Barbarian.

...a cleric who can outclass the PHB Barbarian should he choose.

...a cleric who if I were playing him, wouldn't even bother attempting to heal the Barbarian, because the risk of having the spell fizzle against SR 48 is too high and I'm not wasting my spells like that.

They prefer spells with no saves anyway.

You're making an assumption that most wizards only cast spells that have no save and no SR. I don't think this is the case. The number of such spells is very limited.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact.

SR and saves are a pain in the ass, and while the amount of spells that don't allow either is rare, the fact is that competent wizards try to avoid spells that allow both and prefer to use spells that allow neither.

So you're right that the amount of direct-effect spells that allow neither SR nor a save is small, there are a few things you're missing:

1. A LOT of spells allow just one. Competent casters tend to prefer spells that allow no save and no SR, but if they can only get no save OR no SR, they go for it.

2. There isn't as much variation as you think. The best 4th level spell on one character is frequently the best 4th level spell on another character. There are hundreds of spells published, but most of them get ignored.

3. A lot more spells allow neither than you think. Check out the caster handbooks or ask around the min/max forum to find out what kind of spells people use.

The biggest problem is the SR48. A 20th level wizard with Greater Spell Penetration can't beat that, even rolling a 20. Keep in mind that a 16th level pixie (ecl20) only has SR31, and it's one of the most resistant monsters.

Type "Assay" in the search bar and you'll stumble upon plenty of conversations about overcoming SR.

Assay Spell Resistence gives a +10. This means that the 20th level wizard (yes, I understand that you hate wizards) with GSP will still only get through 1/5 of the time. If the spell also has a save, that's down to 1/10 or lower.

That'll teach the moron to pick spells that allow both SR and a save?

Also while it may seem that this Barbarian goes a little high in power, here's how you measure it:

Can he break the game?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no. Even if he's just exceptional at his job, that's his job.

The dude is just supposed to charge at people and smack them a bunch. He can't even fly, he's probably still medium or large size, and with a little help he's a competent base class. God forbid you shouldn't have to dip around and cross-class just to do your job. I don't have a problem with cross-class dips, I just like it when a base class does its job well enough that it doesn't have to do those things to be effective.

This guy fits his role in the party. With an odd buff or two he risks being a useful member of the team. *gasp*

[Nytemare3701]

He can't even fly

Nitpick: He can charge on the vertical plane now, due to savage leap.

[zioth]

Can he break the game? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

This is our main disagreement. I think a character who's all but invincible CAN break the game, or at the very least make things extremely difficult for the DM. I think that certain spells (Superior Invisibility comes to mind) are a problem for the same reason.

I think our problem is this: You prefer games where every book and Dragon Magazine is allowed and everyone spends times on the min/max forums. I prefer games with a much more limited number of books, and much less numbers-oriented players. With some limitations on what's allowed, this barbarian is vastly overpowered. If anything goes, maybe he's not. In fact, I'll take your word for it that he's not, since you obviously have far more experience with that sort of game than I do.

Even for an "anything goes" game, though, I'd reccommend reducing the SR. Being immune to most spells, and only almost immune when Assay Resistance is cast, just seems over the top to me.

[Littha]

Can he break the game? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

I think our problem is this: You prefer games where every book and Dragon Magazine is allowed and everyone spends times on the min/max forums. I prefer games with a much more limited number of books, and much less numbers-oriented players. With some limitations on what's allowed, this barbarian is vastly overpowered.

Ok, make a core barbarian that can stand up to a core druid in a fight...
actually scratch that, make one of these barbarians that can stand up to a druid in a fight...

Limiting books does not help in the slightest unless the book you limit is the players handbook (which is the least balanced book in the whole of 3.5).

[veekie]

Screw druid.
Make a core barbarian that can stand up in melee to a dragon of the appropriate CR, voluntarily not using spellcasting or magic equipment.
Then make a barbarian with this and pit it against said dragon again.
Now try it with casting.

[Kajhera]

Screw druid.
Make a core barbarian that can stand up in melee to a dragon of the appropriate CR, voluntarily not using spellcasting or magic equipment.
Then make a barbarian with this and pit it against said dragon again.
Now try it with casting.

... The dragon's the one not using spellcasting or magic equipment, right?

[veekie]

Well duh.

[zioth]

There's the problem: I think that a CR20 red dragon wouldn't stand a chance against this barbarian at level 20, even with far lower wealth by level. Worse than that, I think the red dragon would give up out of boredom. And CR20 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party of level 20 characters.

Let's use the sample CR21 red dragon from the Monster Manual:

• Bite damage averages 27, or 47 with power attack 20. The barbarian can survive sixteen bite attacks.
• Breath weapon DC is 33. The barbarian can only fail on a natural 1, and he can roll that 1 four times in a row and survive.
• Spells: With Greater Spell Focus and a cloak of charisma +6, the highest possible save DC is 27. The barbarian only fails on a 1. With Greater Spell Penetration and Assay Resistance, the highest possible penetration is 27. The barbarian can't fail.

So this CR21 red dragon can only use no-SR and no-save spells of level 6 or lower, and can barely hurt the barbarian physically.

[Midnight_v]

Can he break the game? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

This is our main disagreement. I think a character who's all but invincible CAN break the game, or at the very least make things extremely difficult for the DM. I think that certain spells (Superior Invisibility comes to mind) are a problem for the same reason.

I think our problem is this: You prefer games where every book and Dragon Magazine is allowed and everyone spends times on the min/max forums. I prefer games with a much more limited number of books, and much less numbers-oriented players. With some limitations on what's allowed, this barbarian is vastly overpowered. If anything goes, maybe he's not. In fact, I'll take your word for it that he's not, since you obviously have far more experience with that sort of game than I do.Even for an "anything goes" game, though, I'd reccommend reducing the SR. Being immune to most spells, and only almost immune when Assay Resistance is cast, just seems over the top to me.

No offense but really... you're showing that you don't know about how D&D actually works and are argue based on anecdotal evidence and a veiw that the less books involved the less broken the situation becomes. Non of this is true.. you just create a scenario where eventually (like once people figure out melee in D&D doesn't work very well without acess to many many splatbooks) you get games where there is literally No one playing non-casters.
Thats cool if thats what they want, but it sucks for the people who dont' want to play that way.

Further, and i really don't mean to sound insulting but your estimation of that dragon is a sore error mostly likely.
Though... I'm curious... what is it that you think is "Wrong" with a barbarian surviving 16 bites?
If you had to answer with a number. How many bites should the barbarian recieve before death?
The thing is it seems like you're major complaint seems to be Dr. and Sr.
So I really am interested in knowing what numbers you find would be correct. If you remove the sr... somtimes the barbarian is removed from play before he'd get a chance to fight.
  Even as it stands right now in that fight, the dragon could theoretically acid fog 5 times (13 rounds each) and reasonably take the innercalm outer rage + rage stack effect off. Thats if your barbarians don't get a Freedom of movement belt at somepoint in the game. Do you allow magic shop in your games so players can have all the items the want for thier pc's?
While the barbrian is in the cloud he could just use the tail sweep for over and over again in between castings.
Course i'm not actually trying there. Thats just funny.
and irrelavant.
What is relavant is this.
How many bites do you think the barbarian should be able to survive?
oh and

So this CR21 red dragon can only use no-SR and no-save spells of level 6 or lower, and can barely hurt the barbarian physically

You should realize that not just this dragon but through all of D&D the spells with out spell resitance are Battlefield control spells. Bfc can make you God according to the handbok anyway.

[solara]

• Bite damage averages 27, or 47 with power attack 20. The barbarian can survive sixteen bite attacks.
• Breath weapon DC is 33. The barbarian can only fail on a natural 1, and he can roll that 1 four times in a row and survive.
• Spells: With Greater Spell Focus and a cloak of charisma +6, the highest possible save DC is 27. The barbarian only fails on a 1. With Greater Spell Penetration and Assay Resistance, the highest possible penetration is 27. The barbarian can't fail.

So this CR21 red dragon can only use no-SR and no-save spells of level 6 or lower, and can barely hurt the barbarian physically.

Except, of course, the dragon has 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 1 tail slap, 1 crush, and 1 tail sweep attach. And improved multiattack, because no DM would NOT give a dragon that. And, naturally, the rest of its feats for its 28 hit dice. That is 8 feats left, if multiattack and improved multiattack are presumed taken (which they are). So a full attack from that dragon is: +40 (7 times) / +36 (6 times - can only tail slap once, ) / +32 (6 times) / +28 (6 times). A crush attack is unlikely to pin the barbarian because he can make the save to not be pinned. But that is still 25 attacks a round from an Old Red Dragon (CR 20). That's a heck of a lot of attacks.

Oh, and we can't forget that this dragon has SPELLS. Spells with which to BUFF himself, since he's a melee character.

[veekie]

Thats what I was referring to.
Without spells(i.e. fighting 1/2 a dragon), the barbarian is hard pressed to withstand a full attack, with the improvements. Without the improvements, he dies, with basically no say in the matter.
With spells, it gets worse, try the dragon, now with Dolorous Blow, Mighty Whallop massively enhancing its output, Blood Wind letting it attack from a distance or even doing the crude method of bombing the Barbarian with a Solid Fog/Black Tentacles before coming in for a slow kill.

[Nytemare3701]

There's the problem: I think that a CR20 red dragon wouldn't stand a chance against this barbarian at level 20, even with far lower wealth by level. Worse than that, I think the red dragon would give up out of boredom. And CR20 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party of level 20 characters.

Let's use the sample CR21 red dragon from the Monster Manual:

• Bite damage averages 27, or 47 with power attack 20. The barbarian can survive sixteen bite attacks.
• Breath weapon DC is 33. The barbarian can only fail on a natural 1, and he can roll that 1 four times in a row and survive.
• Spells: With Greater Spell Focus and a cloak of charisma +6, the highest possible save DC is 27. The barbarian only fails on a 1. With Greater Spell Penetration and Assay Resistance, the highest possible penetration is 27. The barbarian can't fail.

So this CR21 red dragon can only use no-SR and no-save spells of level 6 or lower, and can barely hurt the barbarian physically.

Essentially, your entire argument boils down to: A badly played CR 20 can't kill a decently played barbarian without significant effort.

[veekie]

There's the problem: I think that a CR20 red dragon wouldn't stand a chance against this barbarian at level 20, even with far lower wealth by level. Worse than that, I think the red dragon would give up out of boredom. And CR20 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party of level 20 characters.

Let's use the sample CR21 red dragon from the Monster Manual:

• Bite damage averages 27, or 47 with power attack 20. The barbarian can survive sixteen bite attacks.
• Breath weapon DC is 33. The barbarian can only fail on a natural 1, and he can roll that 1 four times in a row and survive.
• Spells: With Greater Spell Focus and a cloak of charisma +6, the highest possible save DC is 27. The barbarian only fails on a 1. With Greater Spell Penetration and Assay Resistance, the highest possible penetration is 27. The barbarian can't fail.

So this CR21 red dragon can only use no-SR and no-save spells of level 6 or lower, and can barely hurt the barbarian physically.

Essentially, your entire argument boils down to: A badly played CR 20 can't kill a decently played barbarian without significant effort in one round.

Fixed that for you.

[Andion Isurand]

A few quick opinions.

You could gather up all the different rage variants out there, and let the barbarian pick what type of rage to enter each time.

You could throw trap sense back in there so people can take the Spell Sense ACF from Complete Mage that allows them to get the bonus when dodging the effects of spells and spell-like abilities.

You could also throw in something like Raging Vigor from the Fangshields Barbarian substitution levels found in Champions of Valor.

I would reduce the DR gained to 1/2 class level.

[Andion Isurand]

oops

[Nytemare3701]

A few quick opinions.

You could gather up all the different rage variants out there, and let the barbarian pick what type of rage to enter each time.

You could throw trap sense back in there so people can take the Spell Sense ACF from Complete Mage that allows them to get the bonus when dodging the effects of spells and spell-like abilities.

You could also throw in something like Raging Vigor from the Fangshields Barbarian substitution levels found in Champions of Valor.

I would reduce the DR gained to 1/2 class level.

If I reduce the DR to 1/2 class level and put trap sense back in, it should make everyone a little happier. I will not be using already printed splatbooks because this is intended for use WITH the existing material. Making it standard invalidates existing PrCs.

[Andion Isurand]

Maybe instead of There Is No Size:

Hulking Fury (Ex):  While raging, whenever you receive a modifier based on your size on an opposed roll (such as during grapple and bull rush attempts), you are treated as if you were one size larger if that's advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a monster's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) affect you.

[Midnight_v]

You could gather up all the different rage variants out there, and let the barbarian pick what type of rage to enter each time.

You know... I actually like that idea. Remember that shitty rage from the phb2. We could jolly well give that for free. No one would even notice, lol.

[bearsarebrown]

...that's an awesome idea! Sometimes the Barbarian rages and spins in circles and hits more often. Sometimes he wants to get tougher. Sometimes get faster.

[Midnight_v]

...that's an awesome idea! Sometimes the Barbarian rages and spins in circles and hits more often. Sometimes he wants to get tougher. Sometimes get faster.

Hey so thats what... +1
AND
+2.
Now you're cooking with fire.