Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function

[Bozwevial]

Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

Wait, holy crap. Is there seriously a possibility to get reincarnated into a form with DR 5/magic, SR 19, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer, +20 strength, +10 constitution, 18 natural armor, 150' fly speed, Huge size, a 10d10 breath weapon, Frightful Presence, and some random spell-like ability for these guys? Among other dragony possibilities?

Could be. Depends on how generous your DM is with the table.

[skydragonknight]

Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

Wait, holy crap. Is there seriously a possibility to get reincarnated into a form with DR 5/magic, SR 19, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer, +20 strength, +10 constitution, 18 natural armor, 150' fly speed, Huge size, a 10d10 breath weapon, Frightful Presence, and some random spell-like ability for these guys? Among other dragony possibilities?

A less than a 1% chance, yes.

[Kajhera]

Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

Wait, holy crap. Is there seriously a possibility to get reincarnated into a form with DR 5/magic, SR 19, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer, +20 strength, +10 constitution, 18 natural armor, 150' fly speed, Huge size, a 10d10 breath weapon, Frightful Presence, and some random spell-like ability for these guys? Among other dragony possibilities?

A less than a 1% chance, yes.

What would you put for the options to get reincarnated as dragon-type?

[skydragonknight]

What would you put for the options to get reincarnated as dragon-type?

Me? "Half-Dragon and roll again."

[snakeman830]

Dwarves in general should be a reasonable choice for at least something.

Dwarves are considered the second best race in the PHB (after Human) around here and can make great anything (including Sorcerers with Races of Stone's sub levels).  What were you thinking of?

@Undead scouts: A scout-type only needs to be undead if Libris Mortis is on the table and your DM uses it for more than just monsters.  If this isn't the case, being undead isn't a requirement.

[Bauglir]

The freakshow argument is valid, I think. What I'd like to do is ensure that any class is capable of contributing no matter which of the common races it's played by (these being the ones in the PHB, and the ones that are generally not freakshows). This means that a +/-2 ability score can't make/break the class, and miscellaneous racial abilities aren't going to synergize hilariously well or poorly. Beyond those races, especially once you get into real freakshows (high LA races), you are inevitably going to start getting pigeonholed more as you have fewer class levels and more extreme racial abilities. Which means you really only pick a freakshow race for a role it's suited for, but that's acceptable. What you should be able to do is always have the option of not being a freak.

First step here is probably to balance classes well enough that they can all do something level-appropriate just by virtue of being members of those classes, and to make ability scores less Absolutely Vital to some of them (*cough*casters). Although that latter's less of an issue, since you can usually still pick specific options that let you bypass most of the consequences, simply because of the awesome that is being a caster with a large spell list to choose from.

[awaken DM golem]

Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

Wait, holy crap. Is there seriously a possibility to get reincarnated into a form with DR 5/magic, SR 19, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer, +20 strength, +10 constitution, 18 natural armor, 150' fly speed, Huge size, a 10d10 breath weapon, Frightful Presence, and some random spell-like ability for these guys? Among other dragony possibilities?

A less than a 1% chance, yes.

What would you put for the options to get reincarnated as dragon-type?

Heh ... reminds me of the (very) old Druid Reincarnation trick.

Do nothing.
Get the +3 to mental stats.
Kill self, with help's Reincarnation readied.
Come back as animal whatever, say Badger.
Result:
Badger with Badger physical stats, and +3 mental stats.
That's Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 11+, Wis 11+, Cha 11+
... before point buy adjustments.

You owe the druid mafia some money.
You can't get it on with the Milf-Maid Expert 2 anymore.

[bearsarebrown]

Freakshow argument completely depends on campaign setting. No one cares about being a Half Fiend Half Troll Sahuagin in Placescape. No one cares about being a Warforged in Eberron. But in Grognard's Extra Special Campaign setting that doesn't have Halflings because he doesn't like them? Yeah, being an Orc might be an issue. Most published campaign settings are very tolerant of Freakshow PCs and/or have very easy workarounds like Disguise Self. I've only ever seen Freakshow PCs be a problem is custom campaign settings were the shitty creator didn't bother to include 90% of the printed DnD creatures.

There is NO problem having something rely on race. It makes perfect sense! All races are not created equal. Giants are shitty Wizards and Humans are great Wizards. If you want a character who has a breath-weapon shtick but still hits things with a sword? Fuckall, be a Dragonborn Fighter. This all reminds me of the common argument over flaws. IC and OOC logic says you should build your character to avoid your Flaws. Grognards want Shaky and Murky-Eyed characters to become Archers however.

[bkdubs123]

Bears, you miss the point. Nobody here is saying that playing Half-Troll Fighters is a bad thing. The thing people are saying, and I would tend to agree with, is that if playing anything less than a Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn Fighter means that you just don't cut the mustard that we have a problem.

Though, in my opinion, this problem is more to do with the class(es) itself rather than the races.

[bearsarebrown]

anything less than a Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn Fighter means that you just don't cut the mustard that we have a problem. Though, in my opinion, this problem is more to do with the class(es) itself rather than the races.

That's absolutely an issue with the classes. Lower tier classes require more optimization to cut the mustard. An aspect of optimization is race.

What's the argument? 

[bkdubs123]

What's the argument? 

Oh, I'm pretty sure it's just MidnightV asserting that it's wrong of people to say that the Fighter is a good class as long as you're a Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn. He contends, and I agree, that the Fighter kind of sucks, but the Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn is good (as it would be just as good for any melee oriented class and/or build).

[Lycanthromancer]

Do you see where you skipped a step?

You do know that water orcs get -2 to both of these stats, yes? Plus -2 to wisdom?

@Amadi - The only human fighter I've ever seen in a campaign was one made for a very low level arena campaign. If a player wants to play a human in my campaign while the other players are silly things like Half-Ethergaunt Sorcerers and Wereunicorn/dragon hybrids, I would probably give them some bonuses just to keep things fair. On the other hand, I could just portray the peasantry realistically and have them throw rocks at the horrible beasts he travels with.

Commoners must be rare in your games if they provoke creatures to violence that could squash them with a hard thought.

[oslecamo]

What's the argument?  

Oh, I'm pretty sure it's just MidnightV asserting that it's wrong of people to say that the Fighter is a good class as long as you're a Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn. He contends, and I agree, that the Fighter kind of sucks, but the Feral Mineral Warrior Incarnate Warforged Dragonborn is good (as it would be just as good for any melee oriented class and/or build).

Except it wasn't. Here's the post that actually started this:

Pretty awesome stuff actually overall

So if you had your daughter abducted by a bestial pig-faced motherfucker who smelled like a corpse, would you insist on finding someone "normal" looking to rescue her or would you recruit the first badass who looked willing? If some bastard with a dragon's head said "Hey man, I'll go kill that fucker and save your daughter, I'm a follower of Bahamut"

 Thing is... you could just as easily have had your daughter abducted by the last 7 ft tall dude with claws and dragonscales... kinda just as easily, more easily imo as dragons seem to be the "Milfhunters" of the D&D world and they're not really alone but still. Scaled dudes that serve bahamut are way less that "scaled dude that are wanting to eat your jibly bits"
But I see where you're coming from.

What you end up with is a world where xenophobia is very watered down, because it's not based on stupid prejudices, it's based on who REALLY WILL eat you. I'm visiting my GF in bumfuck West Virginia right now. Racism is obvious and very present. However it's because they're a bunch of fucking retarded rednecks, not because they ever had a tribe of African Americans raid their farms, raping women and killing men + children.
  

Dude I fucking lol'd., bravo.  

I find it amusing that you think that everyone in D&D knows about every religion in D&D.  

That's all.

He's right, I don't think anyone even GETs knowledge religion who isn't something with real levels. I do find that people instictively have an idea that this "dragonskinned chick looks carnivourous". Still I digress...

While I see where you're coming from

Really I'm thinking you kinda don't. No offense, my only point is that we shouldn't look to the extremes for the baseline.
Template buy off doesn't seem baseline idea for what people are generally going to be expected to play, and the science experiment adventure idea sucks as a base rubric for what people expect.
Hero in pop culture are handsome/pretty and people vaguely want that square jawed dude or the cute little goth, or hell even Samuel. L. Jackson in an eyepatch to show up and make shit right. People replicate that in their gaming or expect to at least.

My point is we can reach 30 con without going to the lab. Simple. This is a page of silly argument over a simple point
Base 18 con is possible via Dwarf, which are the simplest example (though there are other examples yes).
So 30 con isn't completely unreasonable... though I dare say there are far better options.

As you can see no fighter, or any  class actually mentioned. The objective was just "as much Con as possible". And Midnight_V discards the possibility of exotic races/templates just because they aren't "handsome/pretty".

[veekie]

It has a role in practical optimisation though, when your character is visibly mostly human, its more likely to be accepted by a greater number of DMs than someone who's had some kind of orgy in his parentage.

[oslecamo]

It has a role in practical optimisation though, when your character is visibly mostly human, its more likely to be accepted by a greater number of DMs than someone who's had some kind of orgy in his parentage.

By that kind of logic, not using any kind of splatbook (specially no ToB) will also greatly increase the chance your character is acepted by a greater number of DMs.

[Kajhera]

It has a role in practical optimisation though, when your character is visibly mostly human, its more likely to be accepted by a greater number of DMs than someone who's had some kind of orgy in his parentage.

By that kind of logic, not using any kind of splatbook (specially no ToB) will also greatly increase the chance your character is acepted by a greater number of DMs.

Those suited to be player characters are around 1 in 100.

(Dragonborn kobolds are around 1 in 100. (Coincidence?))

A feral mineral warrior dragonborn incarnate construct warforged or whatever is more likely to be one in a million.

Perhaps you might play one ... once? But then... they're accounted for.

Humans, you can play like a million and no one cares.  Always more where that came from.

Entirely different kind of logic from say, whether your DM lets you play a binder, a class accessible with a reasonably high knowledge religion check.

[oslecamo]

Entirely different kind of logic from say, whether your DM lets you play a binder, a class accessible with a reasonably high knowledge religion check.

On the contrary, if the DM never had heard of Tome of Magic, then there's exactly zero binders on his campaign seting, thus the player, if acepted, would truly be one of a kind.

On the other hand, the Knowledge DC for identifying the warforged dragonborn whatever isn't any harder than recognizing the human wizard, as they're both simply based on HD as far as RAW cares.

[veekie]

It has a role in practical optimisation though, when your character is visibly mostly human, its more likely to be accepted by a greater number of DMs than someone who's had some kind of orgy in his parentage.

By that kind of logic, not using any kind of splatbook (specially no ToB) will also greatly increase the chance your character is acepted by a greater number of DMs.

Yes, that too.

[Kajhera]

Entirely different kind of logic from say, whether your DM lets you play a binder, a class accessible with a reasonably high knowledge religion check.

On the contrary, if the DM never had heard of Tome of Magic, then there's exactly zero binders on his campaign seting, thus the player, if acepted, would truly be one of a kind.

On the other hand, the Knowledge DC for identifying the warforged dragonborn whatever isn't any harder than recognizing the human wizard, as they're both simply based on HD as far as RAW cares.

The warforged dragonborn whatever is, admittedly, rather ... flamboyantly unique.  

... As a DM, if someone came in with a new class and wanted to play it, say binders, and they looked cool, you can bet there'd retroactively be binders in the campaign setting. However, retroactively making everything half-dragon half-fiend got me some ridiculous results even when there was in-character justification for it.

[Lycanthromancer]

Entirely different kind of logic from say, whether your DM lets you play a binder, a class accessible with a reasonably high knowledge religion check.

On the contrary, if the DM never had heard of Tome of Magic, then there's exactly zero binders on his campaign seting, thus the player, if acepted, would truly be one of a kind.

On the other hand, the Knowledge DC for identifying the warforged dragonborn whatever isn't any harder than recognizing the human wizard, as they're both simply based on HD as far as RAW cares.

The warforged dragonborn whatever is, admittedly, rather ... flamboyantly unique. 

... As a DM, if someone came in with a new class and wanted to play it, say binders, and they looked cool, you can bet there'd retroactively be binders in the campaign setting. However, retroactively making everything half-dragon half-fiend got me some ridiculous results even when there was in-character justification for it.

Time for a mutagen to turn everyone into X-Men.