Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.

[skydragonknight]

In a dungeon you'd want earth glide instead.

[Whisper]

Beholder Slayer: Just cut out the middlewoman and cast Summon Sandwich. That way you can save the higher level spell slot, and not deal with the girlfriend until you're ready to cast Summon Blowjob.

Sunic: You seem uncomfortable with topic drift. I'm not. I find discussions like "Is there an equivalence between real world intelligence and game Int?" interesting.

But since it's not nice to deprive the obsessed of their toys, perhaps you could explain what advantages are provided by flight in particular, which makes it more important than other buffs.

I mean, obviously it allows you choose between ranged and melee combat against anyone who isn't flying, but since you don't consider running away to be a factor, and any real opponent is also competent at range... what's the specific need? Are you talking about flying all the time, or merely being able to fly at will, should the need arise? 

[Sunic_Flames]

Beholder Slayer: Just cut out the middlewoman and cast Summon Sandwich. That way you can save the higher level spell slot, and not deal with the girlfriend until you're ready to cast Summon Blowjob.

Sunic: You seem uncomfortable with topic drift. I'm not. I find discussions like "Is there an equivalence between real world intelligence and game Int?" interesting.

There are threads that serve no purpose other than to amuse their betters. There are also those that have a purpose in and of themselves. Threads who fail to be the latter can only be the former (or completely useless). Off topic babbling contributes to failing to be the latter. There are more than enough fail threads without ruining good ones. If you want to discuss irrelevant details, make your own damn topic where they are relevant. And Hi Welcome

But since it's not nice to deprive the obsessed of their toys, perhaps you could explain what advantages are provided by flight in particular, which makes it more important than other buffs.

I mean, obviously it allows you choose between ranged and melee combat against anyone who isn't flying, but since you don't consider running away to be a factor, and any real opponent is also competent at range... what's the specific need? Are you talking about flying all the time, or merely being able to fly at will, should the need arise? 

Hi Welcome

Let's see...

Flight is often faster than walking. So even if it granted no other advantage, there is that.

Flight allows you to treat low level obstacles as such, instead of herping and derping because there is a pit in the way, or whatthefuckever.

Most importantly though, everyone is fucking flying at mid and high levels. It's just something you do. So if you are not flying, you cannot keep up with the enemies, and you cannot keep up with your own party. Even before this, having the ability to fly is common, it's just not something you can do all the time yet.

So if you reach those levels and can't fly yet, you either get slaughtered by those that do, or ragequit and become a random bartender somewhere because you can't keep up anymore.

Also, earth glide isn't as common of an ability as flight. So sure it helps, but it can't be pointed to as a no brainer, especially when it's only working inside, with a low ceiling (and since everyone is flying, they don't fucking build places with low ceilings).

[veekie]

Earth Glide is a hell lot more powerful than Flight when used though.

[Sunic_Flames]

Not really.

[Whisper]

Sunic: You seem uncomfortable with topic drift. I'm not. I find discussions like "Is there an equivalence between real world intelligence and game Int?" interesting.

{A paragraph of white noise}

Sorry, my fault. Forgot my own advice, and expected you to pass a Turing test.

But since it's not nice to deprive the obsessed of their toys, perhaps you could explain what advantages are provided by flight in particular, which makes it more important than other buffs.

I mean, obviously it allows you choose between ranged and melee combat against anyone who isn't flying, but since you don't consider running away to be a factor, and any real opponent is also competent at range... what's the specific need? Are you talking about flying all the time, or merely being able to fly at will, should the need arise? 

Hi Welcome

Let's see...

Flight is often faster than walking. So even if it granted no other advantage, there is that.

Flight allows you to treat low level obstacles as such, instead of herping and derping because there is a pit in the way, or whatthefuckever.

Most importantly though, everyone is fucking flying at mid and high levels. It's just something you do. So if you are not flying, you cannot keep up with the enemies, and you cannot keep up with your own party. Even before this, having the ability to fly is common, it's just not something you can do all the time yet.

So if you reach those levels and can't fly yet, you either get slaughtered by those that do, or ragequit and become a random bartender somewhere because you can't keep up anymore.

So, nothing apart from the obvious, then. No real "killer app", just a host of conveniences that, taken together, are too good to pass up.

Also, earth glide isn't as common of an ability as flight. So sure it helps, but it can't be pointed to as a no brainer, especially when it's only working inside, with a low ceiling (and since everyone is flying, they don't fucking build places with low ceilings).

The problem with "earth glide" (I had to look it up to see what the term meant) is that while you might be able to move through rock, that doesn't grant you the ability to see through it or shoot through it. So while it has some advantages that flight lacks, flight also has some advantages that it lacks.

I wouldn't really call it a flight substitute unless it's coupled with some sort of targeting spacial sense (tremorsense, blindsight, etc) that works through rock.

[Kajhera]

This reminds me of the time my premade minotaur discovered he had a pair of boots of levitation in his inventory.

Near the end of the dungeon.

I got voted 'best roleplayer' that session.   

[Echoes]

You wouldn't notice lack of flight much in a dungeon crawl though.

Instead, you just get automatically annihilated by better auto attackers.

Y'know, a caster doesn't have to be able to fly. They could be a sorcerer or something. 

Which also can, but don't have to has Fly.

Fixed that for you.

Alter self is a 2nd-level spell. Fly is a 3rd-level spell. Did you know there's a 1st-level sorcerer-only spell in Races of the Dragon that gives +30ft. (40 ft. if you're dragonblooded) to your spell-based fly speed?

Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers can seriously score a 120 ft. (160 ft. w/ the above spell) fly speed at 4th level (wyrmling white dragon), while also packing 60-ft. land, 30-ft. burrow, and 60-ft. swim speeds. That's literally every type of movement except climb (which is useless because you can fucking fly). Shadow dragons are nearly as boss, trading the burrow and swim speeds for more natural armor.

Even without that, avariel give humanoid Sorcerers access to 50 ft. fly speed (80 or 90 ft. total).

Don't tell me Sorcerers don't fly. They do it better than Wizards, even if they're a level late to the party.

[Sunic_Flames]

So, there have been some here who doubted the importance and necessity of making real characters. They questioned the need for it, and insisted it wouldn't be so bad if they didn't.

Here is a perfect example of why you should be taking my advice.

As you can clearly see, we have an incompetent party farming rats, failing at even this, and getting wanked over by a bunch of basket weavers. When even basket weavers mock your lack of competence, it is time to delete and reroll in real life.

Do you want this to be you?

If no, then step it up or step on out. And of course the answer is no. Because competence matters. For everything. Even, and especially that nebulous "fun" people without any valid points like to hide behind, like the troleplayers and basket weavers for example. (and thank you BAD, for one of your few worthwhile contributions to this board)

Because regardless of what certain fuckwits with a misplaced BDSM fetish will tell you, it is not Fun to Fail(tm). They are only telling you this so that they can wank over you, seeing as that is the only way they can get their pebbles off. In actuality the role of a mook in the D&D world is exactly the same as the role of farm animals raised for meat in the real world - you're just there to feed your betters, really.

Want to be onnomnomed?

Of course not.

[Kajhera]

Truthfully, it's frikkin' hilarious to fail at times. It's just not necessarily conducive to long-term fun and accomplishment.

Define comedy for me, please? If it doesn't include fail, it's boring.

[Sunic_Flames]

Truthfully, it's frikkin' hilarious to fail at times. It's just not necessarily conducive to long-term fun and accomplishment.

Define comedy for me, please? If it doesn't include fail, it's boring.

So are you saying your characters should be perpetual laughing stocks of everyone? Because that is what embracing failure means. The real characters do the real jobs, and you're those fuckers everyone laughs at.

[Kajhera]

Truthfully, it's frikkin' hilarious to fail at times. It's just not necessarily conducive to long-term fun and accomplishment.

Define comedy for me, please? If it doesn't include fail, it's boring.

So are you saying your characters should be perpetual laughing stocks of everyone? Because that is what embracing failure means. The real characters do the real jobs, and you're those fuckers everyone laughs at.

Nah, just every now and again. 

[Bloody Initiate]

I've definitely played with players who prefer to fuck around rather than be competent. Your first adventure with them tends to suck because you don't know they're a fuck-up, but after that you can prepare for it. I referenced one such player in the "ruining the game" thread, you just learn to account for that fact that they'll be useless, and in my opinion I think THEY should warn everyone else before the game begins as well. Something like "Hey guys, I'm a fuck-up who just likes to do stupid shit because I think it's funny. Don't count on me to contribute to the group effectively, I will instead be trying to make everyone laugh all the time."

That way the other players know and they know they have to step on the gas a bit so as to compensate for the clown. If you're playing with strangers there's an argument for just kicking the player, but since I play with friends it's more a matter of just accepting that the clown is in fact a clown.

[Sunic_Flames]

In that case, they still fail as it is possible to be both funny and useful. That does bring up a point that I was going to bring up today anyways, but now is a good time as any.

[Kajhera]

There are appropriate and inappropriate times to fail amusingly.

I could get away with a lot more starting out than I could now.  

And it's amusing to look back on trying to, not only climb trees in full plate, but leap from branch to branch because of my lack of system mastery.

Now that I know the system I'd just be an ass for doing that.

Alternately, I'd do it easily.

[Sunic_Flames]

Lago's Monk. Always a classic.

And again, it's possible to be funny and still successful.

[lans]

You wouldn't notice lack of flight much in a dungeon crawl though.

Instead, you just get automatically annihilated by better auto attackers.

I activate Roll With It*7

Edit- How would you respond to a player who plans on going Barbarian 1/Wizard 19, so he can get 9th level spells while the people who are planning Wizard 20 are still in school?