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Author Topic: No Spellcasters!?!?!? Thats Absurd! [3.5]  (Read 8093 times)
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JanusJones
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« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2008, 09:35:37 PM »

@Midnight: Actually, that combo works fine as long as you attack - it takes care of a bigger radius of foes.  Throw on Intimidating Strike from the PhB and you can trigger Imperious Command with an attack, too, then add Stench of Death (spelltouched feat) to sicken your enemy and boost your save.  Or just go Unseelie Fey with Winter's Chill for penalizing foes' saves by your Cha mod.

You'd probably wanna do the Battle Jump + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper thing, and I'd suggest being a Diopsid from Dragon Compendium so you could two-weapon wield with two-handed weapons (whee!).  That lets you have heavy damage.  Still, doesn't cover the Cha, which would be an issue . . .

Your call, man - stat up a build and see what kind of numbers you can get!   Wink

@dman: Oooh - sounds nice.  Pity your unarmed damage doesn't improve past 20th, though - no such thing as epic unarmed progression.
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #121 on: July 21, 2008, 09:38:15 PM »

Monk's Tattoo is from Something of Faerun. I want to say Magic, but I'm not sure.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #122 on: July 21, 2008, 10:10:14 PM »

@Midnight: Actually, that combo works fine as long as you attack - it takes care of a bigger radius of foes.  Throw on Intimidating Strike from the PhB and you can trigger Imperious Command with an attack, too, then add Stench of Death (spelltouched feat) to sicken your enemy and boost your save.  Or just go Unseelie Fey with Winter's Chill for penalizing foes' saves by your Cha mod.

You'd probably wanna do the Battle Jump + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper thing, and I'd suggest being a Diopsid from Dragon Compendium so you could two-weapon wield with two-handed weapons (whee!).  That lets you have heavy damage.  Still, doesn't cover the Cha, which would be an issue . . .

Your call, man - stat up a build and see what kind of numbers you can get!   Wink

@dman: Oooh - sounds nice.  Pity your unarmed damage doesn't improve past 20th, though - no such thing as epic unarmed progression.
lol...you got me. I'm using the street fighter variant as well.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:56:18 PM by Midnight_v » Logged

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dman11235
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« Reply #123 on: July 21, 2008, 10:17:00 PM »

Magic of Faerun!  It is.
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atrocity05
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« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2008, 12:37:41 AM »

Well, I really want to run this as a neutral/good campaign.  Sorry Sad .  The barbarian is perfectly fine as well as most of what I see coming from dman about his monk.  Dan2 also seems to have caught onto this whole no magic thing.  I don't know if I trust a spelltouched feat or something called Unseelie Fey.  Neither of those sounds unmagical, though I don't know much about either.  Try and keep it close to the original goal and we'll be cool. 

Pretty sure beguiler (think I saw it mentioned) is out. 

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« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2008, 04:57:07 AM »

The Beguiler JanusJones is talking about is a race, not the spellcasting class Wink

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atrocity05
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« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2008, 08:08:07 AM »

Oops, sorry, obviously wasn't reading close enough 
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JanusJones
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« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2008, 09:23:41 AM »

Well, I really want to run this as a neutral/good campaign.  Sorry Sad .  The barbarian is perfectly fine as well as most of what I see coming from dman about his monk.  Dan2 also seems to have caught onto this whole no magic thing.  I don't know if I trust a spelltouched feat or something called Unseelie Fey.  Neither of those sounds unmagical, though I don't know much about either.  Try and keep it close to the original goal and we'll be cool. 

Pretty sure beguiler (think I saw it mentioned) is out. 



Why is Beguiler out?  It's an LA +0 race from FRCS - Shining South. Unseelie Fey is a template from Dragon Magazine Compendium.  They aren't magical - no spell-likes - they're just good.

I think in your original post you said a lot about "optimize like hell" in order to make up for lack of magic.  The thing is, we kind of HAVE to - the challenge is to exist, succeed, and even DO WELL in a world DESIGNED to challenge CASTERS, who are able to overcome obstacles non-casters have a HELL of a time with.  Without the ability to cast Protection from Evil, our brains are sitting ducks - which is why I recommended some of the feats and templates I did.  Without true seeing or dispel magic, our party is completely at the mercy of illusions - same thing without Mindsight.  Yes, it's wonderful fun to design crazy damage monsters, but combat is NOT what we need to worry about - it's every OTHER damn thing in the d20 universe that will kick the ever-loving SHITE out of you if you can't cast all the spells a standard party can.

Right now my character would be the one thing keeping us from falling into illusory pits and dying.  That's it.  Just one obstacle and boom, we're all dead.  That's not even TOUCHING the fact that we have NO WAY to heal attribute damage and are more or less sitting ducks when it comes to incorporeal or ethereal enemies. 

I thought part of this challenge was to use what we know to be able to survive what a standard, caster-inclusive party of our level could survive.  If you start banning things right off the bat, you're making a party that has VOLUNTEERED to be WEAK even WEAKER.  That seems like a bit of a change to the challenge, and I'm not sure it will do what any good ruling should - make the game MORE FUN. 

I really appreciate you stepping up and being willing to DM this.  Don't worry, though, that we're going to somehow be "broken" - be FAR more worried that you're going to kill us too quickly with some barrier that we won't be able to overcome!  Let's make a quick list of stuff we'll be stymied by, shall we?

1) Attribute damage/drain.
2) Incorporeal/ethereal attackers.
3) Save or dies - we have very little in the way of buffs, and with the way our characters are shaping up, we've got LOUSY will saves.
4) Energy damage - we have no protection from it, so a good breath could wipe the party out.
5) Invisible attackers.  Sure, my Beguiler would see them, but he couldn't make them visible!
6) Natural obstacles - no walking on the bottom of oceans to get places, no teleporting, no plane-shifting, etc.
7) Environmental hazards - no endure elements, no planar adaptation - we're at the mercy of the elements, so to speak.
8) No safe resting - sorry, no magnificent mansions or tiny huts or even rope tricks for us.  Kill us while we sleep.  Whee.

If I were on the phone with one of my caster friends, I'd have a longer list, but you get the idea.  Banning anything from play on TOP of banning casters is just making the prospect of this challenge less fun, which seems antithetical to our purposes here.
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atrocity05
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« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2008, 09:30:13 AM »

I made a mistake with the beguiler.  I didn't read close enough and just assumed it was the caster as mentioned above.

I'm not trying to make you weaker, I'm sorry if it came across that way.  I did, however, have a certain world in mind when this was listed.  Like I've been saying (and like most of you have seem to not understood) is that you can pick anything and as long as it fits in a somewhat normal society with a shortage of low-level casters it'll probably be fine.  I only added most of the bans and such after people wanted me to specify exactly what you could and couldn't use.  Honestly, use what you feel fits in without magic.

EDIT: BTW, if you guys would just go ahead and decide on the builds you would definitely want to use, I can go ahead and get this all figured out.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:33:28 AM by atrocity05 » Logged

Midnight_v
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« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2008, 10:58:18 AM »

Quote
Recently, in the Eberron Pbp game, there was a small discussion on playing a party with no full spellcasters. This kind of got the ball rolling in my head. Why not? So here I am. Can a non-spellcasting party survive a normal adventure?

After a few discussions, I have narrowed down the restrictions.
-No classes with spellcasting progressions that get more than 4th level spells
-Preferrably no spells at all
-No wands, scrolls or staffs to UMD
-No psionics/divine/arcane spellcasting
-Incarnum is up to the DM
-ToM is up to the DM
-ToB is good
-Optimize the hell out of it (Dont Die!)

Interesting we can get "Some" spells 4th or lower hmm.
I do want to serve an elder evil, though. Damn. Evil is just better for this. *sigh*
Well here goes.

Quote

Tylunth
Variant Barbarian 19/ Fighter1

Human Power Attack
Brb1 improved bullrush, Barbarian Ferocity Variant, Lion totem Variant
Brb2 Uncanny Dodge
Brb3 intimidating rage
Brb4
Brb5
Brb6 Shock trooper
Brb7 StreetFighter variant1 Critical Charge
Brb8 Skill trick: never outnumbered.
Brb9 Imperious command
Brb10 SFvariant 2  90 degree turn during a charge
Brb11 Greater Ferocity
Brb12/Ftr1  Feat:Combat reflexes, Feat:Robilar's Gambit
Brb13/Ftr1  SFvariant3 Charge through occupied squares
Brb14/Ftr1 Shifting Stance
Brb15/Ftr1 Feat:Intimidating strike
Brb16/Ftr1  4X speed while charging
Brb17/Ftr1  Relentless ferocity, Feat:Reckless rage
Brb18 /Ftr1
Brb19/Ftr1  Cleaving Charge

Assumptions only that Ferocity counts as a prerequistes for rage feats. If not then this build becomes Bar2/ftrX
So far I've though up his weapon, its an axe or a guisarme named
"Anathema"
What I lose out on if not evil is having the The Hulks of Zorethra as a religious belief and

Insane Defiance and Willing Deformity - Madness.  Which of course helps me overall with my intimidate checks and my probbably low will save but I"m going through the thread right now looking through the equipment rules for his game. I'm sure the equipment will cover it, okay though. Hmm adapt for goodness.


« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 11:08:14 AM by Midnight_v » Logged

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Dan2
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« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2008, 11:05:13 AM »

To be fair JJ, atro didn't write the first post...

IIRC allow me to sum up what we're doing.

Level 10, Optimized
No Exhalted Deeds
No Vile Darkness
Very Limited spellcasting
No warlocks/Tome of Magic
No 3rd party sources
No Dragon Magazine
No 3.0 material
No Elder Evils

I'm AFB, but I'll probably go with a Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 2, Warblade 5
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atrocity05
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« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2008, 11:07:16 AM »

That looks to be about the list of what was originally allowed and what seems pretty good to me.  If anyone has any good reasons for banning/unbanning things, just say it and list your argument and we'll see what we can work up to fix it.  I don't want this to fail hardcore or anything.
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JanusJones
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« Reply #132 on: July 22, 2008, 11:24:05 AM »

Ah - gotcha!  I reacted because I thought you were banning Beguiler (race!) and Unseelie Fey - my bad!  If we aren't evil, we aren't evil - c'est la vive.  I should have Redpaw statted up by tonight.

Still thinking deep thoughts about a Factotum, though . . . something about using Cloak of Deception to disappear, then 12 standard actions to slice up foes with a combination of Assassin's Stance for 2d6 SA and Iaijutsu Focus . . . or disappear to fire off 12 arrows while invisible, slaughtering living enemies . . .

Heh.  Redpaw's still better, if less cinematic, and way more of a party player.
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« Reply #133 on: July 22, 2008, 11:28:28 AM »

I'll probably have to wait until tomorrow to stat up the BBlade, as tonight is all taken and I can't bring my books to work with me.
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« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2008, 11:46:17 AM »

Cool, as long as we're all good now, sorry for the miscommunications.
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Midnight_v
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« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2008, 01:12:09 PM »

To be fair JJ, atro didn't write the first post...

IIRC allow me to sum up what we're doing.

Level 10, Optimized
No Exhalted Deeds
No Vile Darkness
Very Limited spellcasting
No warlocks/Tome of Magic
No 3rd party sources
No Dragon Magazine
No 3.0 material
No Elder Evils

I'm AFB, but I'll probably go with a Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 2, Warblade 5
3.0 isn't Dm using the Magic of Faerun or something for his monk?
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« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2008, 01:18:07 PM »

Heh, does the Truenamer count as a caster? or is it just so far below everyone's radar that one thinks of it?
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« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2008, 01:30:34 PM »

Heh, does the Truenamer count as a caster? or is it just so far below everyone's radar that one thinks of it?

The Tome of Magic was banned in its entirety. And it would most certainly be a caster.
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« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2008, 01:41:07 PM »

Yes yes, I know. I was just taking a jab at the truenamer. (pity, since I do like the concept, just not the execution, and the actual utterances are rather underwhelming; I feel it would almost be balanced in a campaign like this)
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JanusJones
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« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2008, 01:44:08 PM »

Totally my bad, man!

For the non-evil B-Blade, let's try this:

Wild (Dragon #306, but available online from Crystal Keep here: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf) Proto-Creature (see Dragonlance - Bestiary of Krynn) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org, under the Unearthed Arcana racial variants): +10 Strength, +4 Con, -8 Int, -8 Cha.  You're going to be a moron, but c'est la vive.

Lion Totem Barb 1/Fighter 1/Crusader 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/BB 4/Whatever 2: EWP - Boomerang (1st), Point Blank Shot (flaw), Rapid Shot (flaw), TWF (Fighter 1), Extra Rage (3rd), Headlong Rush (Fighter 2), Boomerang Daze (6th), ITWF (BB 3), Far Shot (9th). 

Explanation: Take the Whirling Rage variant from Unearthed Arcana for the extra attack per round.  With an 18 base Strength, you'll have a 30 (with the +2 from levels).  Invest in a Valorous +1 Talenta Boomerang and a +4 Strength bonus item (Gauntlets of Ogre Power or the like).  With a 34 Strength and triple damage on a charge, you'll be dealing (including your weapon's +1 enhancement bonus) 3d4+39 per hit on 6 attacks - three base, plus two from ITWF, plus one from Rapid Shot.  The +2 bonus to attack from charging will help your bonus to hit.  The save DC to avoid the nastiness of being dazed will be an unreasonable 49+3d4 - enough to daze even the most ridiculously high Fort-save critters.  And that's WITHOUT using one of your FIVE rages per day, mind you!

You'll notice I left you two levels to play with.  Wasn't really sure what to do with them, to be honest, so I left them up to you - another level each of Warblade and Crusader wouldn't hurt, I guess, and you could always have 2 levels of Orc Paragon - that'd leave you one level closer to another +2 to Strength.  I'd say picking up Warblade would make good sense, though, as that'll let you grab Iron Heart Surge - which, as we all know, is MADE OF WIN.

You could also do this with a Thri-Kreen, which would make for some serious awesometacularity.  Let's see how that would look, shall we?

Proto-Creature Thri-Kreen (2 HD, +2 LA): +6 Strength, +4 Dex, -6 Int, -8 Cha, +6 nat AC, +30 to jump (yay for leap attacks!).  They also get some fun little psi-likes, but all that pales in comparison to their four arms and jump boost - w00t!  With LA buyoff, you're only going to be one level behind, so no worries, and Thri get monstrous humanoid HD, which come with full BaB, so they won't slow you down.  I left off the Wild template because Thri are already pretty nobbled in the Int/Cha department, and adding Wild wouldn't help that any (after a certain point, adding more Strength doesn't help, as you end up pouring tons into your dump stats to avoid having 1's!).

Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/BB 4: Point Blank Shot (1st), Battle Jump (flaw), Leap of the Heavens (flaw), Power Attack (Fighter 1), Multiweapon Fighting (3rd), Improved Bull Rush (6th), Shock Trooper (BB 3), Improved Multiweapon Fighting (9th).

Explanation: Heh.  This one's kind of nasty, actually.  Your strength is only 26 (30 with your +4 item), so your base damage when performing your jumping charge is only going to be 3d4+30 - sounds like a step down, I know, but hear me out.  You've got three base attacks, four extra from multiweapon fighting, and four more from improved multiweapon fighting - sounding better yet?  Now let's add something, shall we?  You can POWER ATTACK, sacrificing ALL YOUR BaB, and take the penalty to your AC INSTEAD of your bonus to hit!  That adds a significant +9 x 3 (yay for charge multipliers!) = +27 damage per hit.  Granted, your total bonus to hit when you go all out is going to be low, but you can rage to improve it.  Plus, you can murder CROWDS of mooks with a single action, and when you're talking damage you're usually limited to a single target per round.

All in all, your call - two ideas for you to play with.  Either a ferocious Orcy Barbarian (I've always envisioned Water Orcs as looking like . . . well, humanoid Orca whales!) or a leaping grasshopper.  Either way, good times!

Hey Surreal - fancy meeting you here!  I think Truenamer counts as caster, yes, since the abilities are so very spell-like . . . but they do suck, no doubt about it.    

Some Issues With Allowed Sources:

Just noticed the "no 3rd party" clause - I guess that means no Bestiary of Krynn, which means no Proto-Creature.  Les' sigh.  Ah well, no biggie.  No Dragon Mag seems a little mean, though - it's got good stuff in there!

I believe "no Tome of Magic" was changed to "Tome of Magic on a case-by-case basis," wasn't it?  The only thing from there I'd be using on my guy would be a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - an item I'd be getting simply for the Hide/Move Silently boost (I will already have HiPs from another source, and the other benefits of the Dark Creature template are extremely minimal).  Still, no Proto-Creature or Unseelie Fey template is going to SEVERELY hurt my Will save, which is rather annoying . . . I'll have to pick something up to counteract the effect. 

I think the agreement should be "NO SPELLS" - as in not even the 4th level casting variant stuff.  Just plain flat out: no spells.

Not sure why the other bans are in place, though.  No 3rd party I can understand, but not "no Dragon, no 3.0, no BoED, no Elder Evils, no BoVD."  No Tome of Magic doesn't even make good sense; no Shadowcasters or Truenamers, sure, but Binders are hardly spellcasters - they're just utility characters with mildly magical flavor, like Incarnum.  Dragon Mag is official WotC content, and the official WotC ruling on 3.0 is that it stands as written if not updated to 3.5 - which means that if it hasn't been re-written (like Feral, Mineral Warrior, feats from Races of Faerun, etc.), it stands as-is and counts as 3.5 material.  Saying "only stuff released since 3.5" is something that SEVERELY nobbles non-casters, who are, as I've said, my specialty.  It removes the Beguiler race, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, Champions of Ruin . . . it really takes some very fun, excellent sources off the table, which will hurt the party badly.

For a WHOLE lot more on why limiting supplements BADLY injures non-casters (but has little to no effect on casters), see the Everything Goes Gospels: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=972694

BoED and BoVD aren't going to hurt much.  Elder Evils hurts a LOT, as does forcing us to play good - those bonus feats are near-indispensable for a totally caster-free party.  Dragon Mag hurts too, as it removes several REALLY important melee choices (Half-Minotaur, Rope Dart) from play, and doesn't really do anything to make the game more fun or interesting.  No 3.0 is the biggest nerf, though, and really needs to be re-thought.

Once again, we're trying this as a challenge to make a NON-CASTING PARTY that is AS EFFECTIVE as a caster-aided party, right?  THAT'S the limitation - why add on even MORE limitations?  We're choosing to do something that's hard enough without giving up even more sources!  Non-casters LIVE AND DIE by splat-books - without them, they're just the pathetic deadweight of the SRD.  FEATS are what drive non-casters, FEATS and class ability combinations that only work when you start combining different elements from different books to make synergies that allow for better characters. 

Take the Bloodstorm Blade + Boomerang Daze combo.  One of the common bans I see DMs imposing on players is "no setting specific material."  Is the feat "Booomerang Daze" somehow going to ruin game continuity if included in a different world?  Of course not!  It's just a weapon technique, and allowing it allows something that is fundamentally WEAK as a tactic - attacking with a thrown weapon - to have a secondary effect that makes it worthwhile.  Same thing with Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, etc. (both technically 3.0, by the way) - attacking is ALWAYS inferior to spells - even when it deals monstrous damage, you still have to roll to hit!  Spells CHANGE THE FABRIC OF REALITY - you simply will the world to change and it DOES - no roll required. 

I would like to lobby for the inclusion of Dragon Mag and 3.0 materials.  Both are official WotC content, and 3.0 stands as-written if not updated - something that is explicit in the WotC literature.  Neither will hurt game balance (hah!  Game balance!  A comical concept if ever there was one in a game as fundamentally IMBALANCED as d20, and ESPECIALLY humorous in a game in which every PC has volunteered to go without casting!) - in fact, including them can do nothing but add to the amount of creativity players can invest in their characters AND supplement the effectiveness of said characters (something a non-casting party SORELY needs!).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 01:53:48 PM by JanusJones » Logged
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