The complete guide to IP proofing OR how to survive and enjoy your campaign.

[bearsarebrown]

If you're not a spellcaster just buy Pearls of Power and be nice to the Cleric. Spending 80% of WBL on saves is laughable.

[oslecamo]

The former doesn't help at higher levels. For a Medium creature, it's +20 hit points flat, which is the same as if you had a 12 Con at level 20, or a 14 Con at level 10. In fact, at level 20, it's the same as if you were Undead. A d8 with 16 Con will have more hit points, and that 16 is easy to top with items.

Doesn't really matter by then. HP becomes less and less meaningfull as you go higher in levels as power attack shenigans become stronger (and monsters get more obscene Bab and Strenght score). By level 20, it won't be a couple dozens of HP diference that save you from the dragon's pimped full attack.

If you're so worried about that, then just get some HP-boosting items instead of Con boosting items.

The problem witht he latter is that those that do call for a save from you are those that screw you the most - such as PAO or Disintegrate. The former basically autokills you, the latter... probably autokills you anyway, because your hp are low.

Wich are acessible to who again? Wizards, some sorcerers, and half a dozen monsters at best. That's it. And wizards/sorcers certainly have better things to do than cast disintregate by those levels.

And if the DM is throwing PAO at you, then you're kinda screwed whetever you're a construct or not. If the enemy caster is using such a spell, he's certainly sky-rocketed the DC so much that even the buffed up cleric will fail on anything but a 20. Probably by using the Pao on itself for some cheesy combo. In such a situation, you're dead meat whetever you're a construct or not, unless you're another wizard/sorceror and manage to get your own PAO shenigans before the oponent.

[Agita]

The former doesn't help at higher levels. For a Medium creature, it's +20 hit points flat, which is the same as if you had a 12 Con at level 20, or a 14 Con at level 10. In fact, at level 20, it's the same as if you were Undead. A d8 with 16 Con will have more hit points, and that 16 is easy to top with items.

Doesn't really matter by then. HP becomes less and less meaningfull as you go higher in levels as power attack shenigans become stronger (and monsters get more obscene Bab and Strenght score). By level 20, it won't be a couple dozens of HP diference that save you from the dragon's pimped full attack.

If you're so worried about that, then just get some HP-boosting items instead of Con boosting items.

Sure. Name a few.

The problem witht he latter is that those that do call for a save from you are those that screw you the most - such as PAO or Disintegrate. The former basically autokills you, the latter... probably autokills you anyway, because your hp are low.

Wich are acessible to who again? Wizards, some sorcerers, and half a dozen monsters at best. That's it. And wizards/sorcers certainly have better things to do than cast disintregate by those levels.

And if the DM is throwing PAO at you, then you're kinda screwed whetever you're a construct or not. If the enemy caster is using such a spell, he's certainly sky-rocketed the DC so much that even the buffed up cleric will fail on anything but a 20. Probably by using the Pao on itself for some cheesy combo. In such a situation, you're dead meat whetever you're a construct or not, unless you're another wizard/sorceror and manage to get your own PAO shenigans before the oponent.

They don't if they see you're a construct and therefore know Disintegrate will autokill you. It's not exactly hard to notice when someone is a walking bunch of nonliving material.

And making those saves is kind of the point of this thread, yes?

[oslecamo]

Sure. Name a few.

Amulet of tears. Potion/custom item of False Life/Aid. Psionic stone/custom item of Vigor

They don't if they see you're a construct and therefore know Disintegrate will autokill you. It's not exactly hard to notice when someone is a walking bunch of nonliving material.

Get clothes/fullbody armor. Was it that hard?

And making those saves is kind of the point of this thread, yes?

Nope, the point of the thread is for the OP to get atention to his personal playstyle while trying to prove it's superior to every other playstyle out there, while completely ignoring the DM can easily make his whole concept crumble by optimizing the monsters themselves. Tainted casters say hi for starters.

But now, if you want to know how to easily boost your Fort save whitout Con, just get that maneuver that allows you to replace Fort save by a Concentration check, wich is then quite easy to boost.

[Sunic_Flames]

Being a construct that isn't a Warforged is a terrible idea. Being an undead is either a very bad idea or a mildly bad one, depending on if the DM lets you abuse the free stats. Being a Warforged is a very good idea.

/discussion

Also, get the fuck out osle, or at least get your fail the fuck out.

[bearsarebrown]

There is that one feat that makes you immune to effects dependent on your type. I want to say, Wedded To History from Dragon Mag? That's amazing for undead and mandatory if your intent on Nonliving Contructs.

[Littha]

Disintegrate wont auto kill you. Constructs do get fort saves against spells that also affect objects. Problem being with no con mod to add you will have a really low fort save, 2 levels of paladin help somewhat and other save boosters help...


Basically it doesn't say you are treated as an object for spells, only that you are immune to spells that don't also affect objects. All you lose is your con mod to Fort save which shouldn't be more than +3 or so for most characters anyway and you gain complete immunity to anything that dosen't work on objects.

Besides that PAO Human to Human Corpse is permanent

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There is that one feat that makes you immune to effects dependent on your type. I want to say, Wedded To History from Dragon Mag? That's amazing for undead and mandatory if your intent on Nonliving Contructs.

Feat say it doesn't work for nonliving stuff.

[Agita]

Disintegrate wont auto kill you. Constructs do get fort saves against spells that also affect objects. Problem being with no con mod to add you will have a really low fort save, 2 levels of paladin help somewhat and other save boosters help...


Basically it doesn't say you are treated as an object for spells, only that you are immune to spells that don't also affect objects. All you lose is your con mod to Fort save which shouldn't be more than +3 or so for most characters anyway and you gain complete immunity to anything that dosen't work on objects.

That's what I mean. You lose your Con bonus to that Fort save. That's probably a +3 to +6 (let's face it, pretty much all characters are going to want an Amulet of Health as big as they can afford), which is the same difference as a decent Cloak of Resistance, or Greater/Superior Resistance makes. If, on top of that, you're a class that doesn't get a high Fort save (if you are, you're probably a meleer, in which case your HP matter more, making the loss of Con score an even worse idea), you're pretty much screwed when you do get hit by an "affects objects" effect.

The Concentration maneuvers do help - but once again, you're losing out on your Con bonus, though that is much more easily mitigated, and unless you're a Warblade or Swordsage (in which case, again, the loss of Con hurts you even more), that's a feat or (admittedly small) gold tax, and 1/encounter (should hopefully be enough, but you don't want to be in a position where it's not).
Anyway, yes, that's quite enough of this.

And no, the purpose of this thread is listing ways to help characters survive encounters, and by extension campaigns. It's a useful resource even if you don't agree with Sunic's playstyle, and he's contributing and not raging. I actually like him when he's not 'smiting', so don't change that.

[Lycanthromancer]

Remember, anything with the [shapechanger] subtype can remove the effects of any shapeshift-type effect such as baleful polymorph/polymorph any object as a standard action.

It's not immunity, but it comes in quite handy.

[Gods_Trick]

I want to put an idea out there, though I unfortunately can't attempt it now    Works kills. Sorry.

We should have a generic save kit to purchase with WBL; for example, the best 'kit' at level six, what to buy next when you have a chance, etc. Like a stub build, you could mod your kit to meet specific campaign challenges, or when in doubt, go with the gold standard.

Whats a good percent of wealth to per level to allocate to this hypothetical kit? I guesstimate it at 80 percent, but I like jackinng my saves passively. YMMV.

Does this sound useful?

Not a lot you can do to boost saves with cash. Obviously there's the cloak +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 at levels 3/6/10/12/14, that you can just get a +1 of and then skip the rest if you have Greater/Superior Resistance. But aside from those, and the very high level stones, and the level 12ish Spellstrike spikes to be a GMW target? Most of it is pure spells, or innate, not cash based.

Touche    That reveals my lurking assumptions. By default I'm thinking caster whos buffing.

[lans]

Being an undead is either a very bad idea or a mildly bad one, depending on if the DM lets you abuse the free stats.

Incarnate might be doable. It can get Meldshaper level*8 to HP and is a d6 class to begin with. In addition to easy miss chances.

Other ways to help IP
ACFs
Fighter
Resolute(CC)-As an immediate action gain 1/2BAB to will saves. Replaces even level bonus feat
Monk
Invisible Fist(Ex. E) Turn invisible as an Immediate action 1/3 rounds instead of evasion. Lasts 1 round. Instead of Improved Evasion you can use Blink 1/3 rounds as an immediate action. Lasts Wisdom mod rounds.
Feign Death(Ex. E)- You pretend to drop dead so well you become immune to death, paralysis, mind affecting, stat drain, stunning, negative levels and poison. Replaces Evasion. Rangers, and Rogues can take this to, but its not as funny.
Sorcerer
Divine Champion Gain a bonus equal to caster level on saves and AC as a swift action for caster level rounds. Hemmorages spell levels.

Feats-Not as good as spells, but would you rather the gimp do one of these or take Weapon Focus?
Fell Conspiracy(Ex. E) Nobody in party is flat footed or flanked unless you all are
Blessing of the Godless (Ex. E) Reserve HP equal to party level*number of party members that can be drawn upon as an immediate action. Takes 6 minutes to perform, and should help when a monster that does  70% of your hp as average damage gets a crit or rolls high. Later +4 Morale bonus on saves vs Divine spells
Bind Vestige- Choice of immunity to falling and seeing in the dark. Kind of sucks.
Improved Bind Vestige- Choice of immunity to transformations, or wisdom damage/drain. Is 22 AC good enough for level 1-2? Thats an option if it is.
Practiced Binder-Choice of See Invisibility, infinite scouts, and breathing underwater.
Shape Soulmeld- Protection From X immunities, Bull Rush, a weak miss chance(15-20% at level 1), Dimension Door, and/or resistance to divination.
Apostate(EE)- 1/2 level on saves vs divine spells
Insane Defiance(EE)-Redirect mind affecting effects
Deformity (madness)(EE) Immune to mind affecting effects, 1/minute gain bonus equal to 1/2 level on will save

[skydragonknight]

The x state to y thread also exists here on BG, btw.

older version with worse formatting

Yeah, I'm lazy. I'd copy-paste the GitP one over mine if I could work the formatting. Hell, if anyone wants to reformat that and PM me, I'll edit it into the main post and give credit.

[Littha]

Disintegrate wont auto kill you. Constructs do get fort saves against spells that also affect objects. Problem being with no con mod to add you will have a really low fort save, 2 levels of paladin help somewhat and other save boosters help...


Basically it doesn't say you are treated as an object for spells, only that you are immune to spells that don't also affect objects. All you lose is your con mod to Fort save which shouldn't be more than +3 or so for most characters anyway and you gain complete immunity to anything that dosen't work on objects.

That's what I mean. You lose your Con bonus to that Fort save. That's probably a +3 to +6 (let's face it, pretty much all characters are going to want an Amulet of Health as big as they can afford), which is the same difference as a decent Cloak of Resistance, or Greater/Superior Resistance makes. If, on top of that, you're a class that doesn't get a high Fort save (if you are, you're probably a meleer, in which case your HP matter more, making the loss of Con score an even worse idea), you're pretty much screwed when you do get hit by an "affects objects" effect.

The Concentration maneuvers do help - but once again, you're losing out on your Con bonus, though that is much more easily mitigated, and unless you're a Warblade or Swordsage (in which case, again, the loss of Con hurts you even more), that's a feat or (admittedly small) gold tax, and 1/encounter (should hopefully be enough, but you don't want to be in a position where it's not).
Anyway, yes, that's quite enough of this.

And no, the purpose of this thread is listing ways to help characters survive encounters, and by extension campaigns. It's a useful resource even if you don't agree with Sunic's playstyle, and he's contributing and not raging. I actually like him when he's not 'smiting', so don't change that.

I understand the idea it is just that I feel a drop of 3 or 4 points on my fort save is worth being completely immune to quite a lot of everything. The HP do bite a little harder but at low levels you may actually have more HP than others (maug get +30 which is equivalent to a +6 con mod at level 5) and at higher levels the missing HP arent going to matter anyway (And you still end up with what is essentially a +1.5 con mod at level 20 for a maug) as everything is lethal anyway. Also Improved Toughness if you really really needed the extra hp, sure feat tax but immune to anything that requires a fort save and doesn't also affect objects is a pretty solid trade imo.

Maug Crusader 18 vs Human Crusader 20 (with +4 Con mod) ends in a 50 hp difference. With Fairy Mysteries Initiate or Improved toughness the difference will be smaller. Fort save will also be 4-6 (depending on items) lower but then again you are immune to half the things that require a fort save anyway.

The real problem with constructs is that they don't get the Charisma to Concentration bonus that undead do and so really suck at concentration checks.

[Sunic_Flames]

The thing about immunities: Being immune to something just tells the enemy what not to do. The key of course is for them to not know you are immune. And type based immunities are really obvious. So all being a construct or undead does is make everyone spam Sudden Maximized Disintegrate on you, instead of using their usual Fort save effects, and using that Sudden Maximize on a different spell.

Warforged is worth it anyways, but the rest are a trap.

[CantripN]

And limiting your enemy's options is a bad thing? No. Sure, there are downsides, but Maug, at least with some way of mitigating the LA, is a very playable race. For the HP, use Divine Power (The feat, not the spell), that Paladin spell that grants gratuitous amount of Temp. HP, Vigor (Psionic) or just don't get hit.

A Maug Artificer, Archivist or Psion kicks major ass.

[Lycanthromancer]

The thing about immunities: Being immune to something just tells the enemy what not to do. The key of course is for them to not know you are immune. And type based immunities are really obvious. So all being a construct or undead does is make everyone spam Sudden Maximized Disintegrate on you, instead of using their usual Fort save effects, and using that Sudden Maximize on a different spell.

Warforged is worth it anyways, but the rest are a trap.

This is also what disguising yourself is for. Forcing your foes to waste actions doing things you're immune to is a win/win situation for you, especially since the Disguise skill in particular can't be pierced via magic (at least, not any way that I know of).

JaronK isn't kidding when he says disguises are awesome for this kind of thing.

[Tyal-Kelvar]

Two minor things:

1: If you are warforged or undead, and wish to IP proof, you'll likely be using something like wildshape or polymorph most of the day, as on top of the usual benifits, you also hide your type and hence leaving the foes stumped as to your racial vulnerabilities.  Still, warforged is the best choice.  I wish it wasn't, but it is.

2: Still awaiting spells that give miss chance to be added to the class specific list of IP proofing.  Is the lack of them a sign that they aren't worth casting? That Sunic believes at level 20 you merely need a 20% miss chance from that cloak and you'll avoid enough attacks to survive? Or is it a strong belief that melee equals death no matter how much ip proofing? (I guess if the foes are able to survive long enough to reach melee, they are probably immune to all your save or dies, and you have no other tricks left.)

[Lycanthromancer]

2: Still awaiting spells that give miss chance to be added to the class specific list of IP proofing.  Is the lack of them a sign that they aren't worth casting? That Sunic believes at level 20 you merely need a 20% miss chance from that cloak and you'll avoid enough attacks to survive? Or is it a strong belief that melee equals death no matter how much ip proofing? (I guess if the foes are able to survive long enough to reach melee, they are probably immune to all your save or dies, and you have no other tricks left.)

I've already told him how great full concealment is for IP proofing (via a tier 3 class ability, no less) and how many things it makes you immune to.

Sunic_Flames obviously hasn't gotten around to it yet (he's a busy kitsune). But he will. Believe in me, who believes in him!

[Sunic_Flames]

Two minor things:

1: If you are warforged or undead, and wish to IP proof, you'll likely be using something like wildshape or polymorph most of the day, as on top of the usual benifits, you also hide your type and hence leaving the foes stumped as to your racial vulnerabilities.  Still, warforged is the best choice.  I wish it wasn't, but it is.

2: Still awaiting spells that give miss chance to be added to the class specific list of IP proofing.  Is the lack of them a sign that they aren't worth casting? That Sunic believes at level 20 you merely need a 20% miss chance from that cloak and you'll avoid enough attacks to survive? Or is it a strong belief that melee equals death no matter how much ip proofing? (I guess if the foes are able to survive long enough to reach melee, they are probably immune to all your save or dies, and you have no other tricks left.)

Yes, miss chances are a useful IP proofing measure. That section hasn't been done yet (the cloak is only there because I remembered it).

Also:

1: Warforged Druids? Not exactly typical, or optimal, given the whole -2 to everything you do thing.
2: Polymorph doesn't last anywhere near all day without Persist.
3: Non Warforged Constructs and Undead are still gimped in the HP department, unless your DM actually lets you get away with the +6 HP/level thing, and are still massive Disintegrate bait. Also, the Disguise skill in no way helps vs real threats. Shall I list the long list of ways an enemy can determine that yes, you are in fact not alive, despite the pretty facepaint you put on for Mommy?

The real defenses are mainly a caster thing though. And again, mostly high tier at that. Though Bards do get a good deal of the action, letting even Edward the Spoony Bard shove it to beatsticks. Aside from that though, very little in the way of BL tier stuff, and essentially nothing in the way of Fail tier stuff gets any.