The complete guide to IP proofing OR how to survive and enjoy your campaign.

[Tshern]

I haven't read all five pages yet, but the Empyreal armour enchantment wasn't mentioned in the first post. It gives, I believe, an untyped bonus to all saves the same way Spellstrike does.

[lans]

Also, the Disguise skill in no way helps vs real threats. Shall I list the long list of ways an enemy can determine that yes, you are in fact not alive, despite the pretty facepaint you put on for Mommy?

I would like some of them.

Miss chances

Fellmist Cloak 10+5*essentia invested% vs attacks from 10 or more feet away
Darkness- 20% miss chance, useful for a Warlock with the Devils Sight invocation or At Home in the Deep feat, even more useful with the Intensify Darkness feat which takes it to 50%.
Cloak Dance gives concealment

Psion/wilder and psychic warrior have Concealing Amorphia, and its greater version as 2nd and 3rd respectively.
Binders
Otiax gives 20% concealment
Tenebrous has 50% concealment from deeper darkness. It can see through said darkness.
Shadow Caster
Dancing Shadows is a combination of mass Blur or Displacement 3rd level
Truespeak
Word Given Form a combat style requiring 12 ranks in truespeak and tumble, and 5 feats. Gives 50% miss chance to your dodge target.
Percieve the Unseen 2nd level utterance, grants concealment.

[Lycanthromancer]

Detect undead and detect construct, but I REALLY don't expect many spellcasters to memorize those, nor do I expect most to have scrolls available, either.

Generally you KNOW when you're facing one of those, so they're usually useless.

And if every caster packs those in your campaign just to screw one character over? Yeah, that's DM dickery.

[Sunic_Flames]

Well let's see...

Creature detection magic works. But really, it's much, much simpler than that. Knowledge skills. Turns out the DC for getting type is only 10 or 15. Which means everyone other than random dumb brutes (who won't do anything those types would help against anyways) knows you're a construct or undead, and what that means. And of course there's Divinations, the various Symbol spells (which bypass all manner of things, including the Disguise skill) and many others.

Putting on face paint, and expecting it to work will only work if low level, and if you've been doing it literally your entire life and literally no one knows what you really are. Otherwise, you fail.

Now for the last time. Enough about the goddamned undead and non Warforged constructs.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Creature detection magic works. But really, it's much, much simpler than that. Knowledge skills. Turns out the DC for getting type is only 10 or 15.

Yes.  

"Spot check DC OMGWTFBBQ failed.  Oh, that's an orc.  DC 10 knowledge check says it's obviously a humanoid".

[Sunic_Flames]

Creature detection magic works. But really, it's much, much simpler than that. Knowledge skills. Turns out the DC for getting type is only 10 or 15.

Yes.  

"Spot check DC OMGWTFBBQ failed.  Oh, that's an orc.  DC 10 knowledge check says it's obviously a humanoid".

"Though it appears to be an Orc, Orcs are breathing creatures, and this fellow is not breathing. Its movements are jerky and mechanical, like a Construct." *construct traits*

Alternately...

"Though it appears to be an Orc, Orcs are breathing creatures, and this fellow is not breathing. Though he has tried to make himself look alive, he is quite dead, despite being animated, and therefore most be Undead." *Undead traits*

Or you know, Mindsight/Lifesight/any of the other many, many, MANY abilities that say lolwut Disguise.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

"Though it appears to be an Orc, Orcs are breathing creatures, and this fellow is not breathing. Its movements are jerky and mechanical, like a Construct." *construct traits*

Yes, that's the result you get if you succeed upon your spot check to notice that it's a disguise, and then subsequently succeed upon your knowledge check.

Otherwise you don't notice it's a disguise, on account of having failed your spot check.

[oslecamo]

So Knowledge checks pierce all atempts at disguising yourself? Let's expand that logic a little shall we?

Wizard turns itself invisible to try to sneak around. Guard makes knowledge check.

"Though it appears to be an Empty Square, Empty Squares are not breathing creatures, and something in there is breathing. It moves with two limbs and seems to have two arms, thus an humanoid." *humanoid traits*

And now druid trying to sneak around while wildshaped, guard makes Knowledge check.

"Though it appears to be a rat, rats are don't act like that, and this fellow is acting diferent than a rat. Its movements are too precise, like a humanoid." *humanoid traits*

So some ranks in Knowledge and you beat insivibility, notice infiltrators under any kind of magic disguise? Score!

Jokes aside, disguise skill clearly says it allows you to appear as another race. It isn't just puting paint in your face. Is also altering your movements and faking breath/actions to look like something else.

[Gods_Trick]

Interesting idea Sunic. Would it be a Spot, if succesful a free Knowledge check?

Because people do not pay attention to details normally, and ... well when was the last time you looked to see if a guy was breathing? Granted bosomy young lady though I could see this coming up 

Either way, certainly something very few enemies would specialise in, if only because so few need to disguise racial weaknesses.

[Sunic_Flames]

And everyone conveniently ignores all the other ways Disguise fails.

[Lycanthromancer]

And everyone conveniently ignores all the other ways Disguise fails.

Elucidate us, por favor?

Also, a psionic construct or undead has access to tons of new forms via metamorphosis, and using your psicrystal as your primary means of combat (again, via metamorphosis or just by giving it claws and tentacles) is a solid means of wreaking havoc and destruction.

There are some really NICE construct and undead forms available, especially if you like nabbing Su abilities.

[oslecamo]

By RAW, only sucessfull spot checks can beat disguise. That's why it's awesome.

Everything else is an houserule. You don't ask how the wizard conjures matter and energy out of random components, neither do you ask how the Maug disguises himself as an orc with some spare clothes and face paint.

[snakeman830]

Yes, things like Mindsight and other "I auto-detect your real type" abilities work to pierce disguises.  This does not make them a waste of time.

It can be taken another way too.  A Halfling disguises itself as a Dromite.  What mage will cast a "Hold Person" spell on them?

[Gnorman]

Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but how metagame-y is knowing the difference between humanoid and monstrous humanoid? For example, do most spellcasters know in-game that though Charm Person will work on a halfling, it won't on a dromite (or any other variation thereof)? Because if not, disguising yourself as a monstrous humanoid won't dissuade spellcasters from casting Charm Person on you. Those two types in particular just seem pretty fiddly and arbitrarily-designated.

[Kajhera]

Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but how metagame-y is knowing the difference between humanoid and monstrous humanoid? For example, do most spellcasters know in-game that though Charm Person will work on a halfling, it won't on a dromite (or any other variation thereof)? Because if not, disguising yourself as a monstrous humanoid won't dissuade spellcasters from casting Charm Person on you. Those two types in particular just seem pretty fiddly and arbitrarily-designated.

Spellcasters are probably the most likely to have knowledge(nature) at least.

What kinda gets confusing is trying to use knowledge devotion against a disguised thing with the wrong knowledge, what happens.

[wotmaniac]

Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but how metagame-y is knowing the difference between humanoid and monstrous humanoid? For example, do most spellcasters know in-game that though Charm Person will work on a halfling, it won't on a dromite (or any other variation thereof)? Because if not, disguising yourself as a monstrous humanoid won't dissuade spellcasters from casting Charm Person on you. Those two types in particular just seem pretty fiddly and arbitrarily-designated.

Spellcasters are probably the most likely to have knowledge(nature) at least.

What kinda gets confusing is trying to use knowledge devotion against a disguised thing with the wrong knowledge, what happens.

he'd just have to do a spot check first to see past the disguise ... if he fails, but passes the knowledge check, then he correctly identifies the kind of creature of the disguise (which will actually be wrong)

[Shadowhunter]

I think what Sunic is after is this:

PC 1, aptly named Random Dude, sees an Undead disguised as an Orc. Starts thinking of what Random Dude knows about Orcs, since he can't see it's an Undead:
Knowledge (relevant): That's an Orc. Orcs behave like X.
Huh, that thing doesn't. That thing behaves like Y. Weird. Maybe it isn't an Orc...
What behaves like Y?
Knowledge (more relevant): Undead act like Y. Huh. Maybe it's a disguised undead?


I think.

[Sunic_Flames]

I think what Sunic is after is this:

PC 1, aptly named Random Dude, sees an Undead disguised as an Orc. Starts thinking of what Random Dude knows about Orcs, since he can't see it's an Undead:
Knowledge (relevant): That's an Orc. Orcs behave like X.
Huh, that thing doesn't. That thing behaves like Y. Weird. Maybe it isn't an Orc...
What behaves like Y?
Knowledge (more relevant): Undead act like Y. Huh. Maybe it's a disguised undead?


I think.

Win. And there's also all the other things that could care less about the Disguise skill. Which, again means being an undead, or non Warforged Construct fails.

[zugschef]

Knowledge (relevant): That's an Orc. Orcs behave like X.
Huh, that thing doesn't. That thing behaves like Y. Weird. Maybe it isn't an Orc...

but the point of disguise is to look and behave like something/one else, so this line of reasoning makes no sense...

the only thing that could make sense would be a +2 synergy bonus to your spot check, if you've got at least 5 ranks in a relevant knowledge skill. you know what to look for, so to say...

[lans]

Their might be a bluff check involved also.