Nytemare's PHB Rewrites: Skills

[Nytemare3701]

Skills in D&D are the majority of the non-combat checks you make. They cover all the little things, from climbing a wall to bluffing at a game of poker. Some spells allow you to be instantly good at something (divine insight >.<). I'm adding abilities based on your actual skill ranks. These will look like normal skills up till about 9 ranks. After that they will start ramping up quickly to keep pace with spellcasting. (a 15 on a roll would give something equivalent to the second highest spell a caster would have at that level.)

WARNING: This isn't even close to finished.

Tasks and Tricks

Task: Similar to a stance from the ToB. You make the skill check to begin the Task and you gain the benefits of the task until you choose to end it or you enter another task. If you perform a trick, the task ends immediately after.

Trick: Similar to a maneuver or spell. You make the skill check to perform the trick. Regardless of success or failure, the DC increases by # each time you attempt it without resting (similar to truenaming). More powerful tricks increase in difficulty faster.



Surefooted Stride[Task]
Rank Requirements: Balance # ranks.
Check DC: ##
Effect:

Trick Step[Trick]
Rank Requirement: Balance # ranks
Check DC: ## +# per attempt
Effect:


Characters learn these 2 spell levels behind the wizard. When the wizard would get his 3rd level spells (5th), skillmonkeys get all 1st level Tasks & Tricks that they qualify for. Qualification is retroactive.



New Skills Rules:
• Epic skill usages cannot be used without 14 (19?) ranks in said skill.
• Classes gain skill points per ability score, usable for those kinds of abilities. Make the 8+INT into 8+Stats(+4 dex points for your 18 dex, 2 str points for your 14 str, etc). Casters tend to be more SAD than mundanes, so this would give more points to mundanes while making stats matter a little more than just being a modifier. (Thought: Maybe stat bonus ranks can follow the item familiar bonus rule? (Cannot have more bonus ranks than normal ranks). Being a prodigy only goes so far.)
• Class-derived skill points (the "X" in "X+Int") ignore the cross-class rules. Now the skillmonkey really CAN learn almost anything.

example by numbers:

Wizard with 18 INT gets 24 skill points at first level. 8 of them are wildcard points, while the remaining 16 are Int only.
Rogue with 14 INT (good for a skillmonkey) gets 40 skill points at first level. 32 of them are wildcard points, 8 of them are Int only.

The rogue is already pulling ahead at this point.

Now let's factor in the physical scores.
The full wizard statblock is 10,12,14,18,10,10 (That seems to be the goto build for a pure casting wizard)
This gives our wizard another 4 dex points & 8 con points. That should cover concentration, and work toward 5 in balance.

Meanwhile the rogue with his MAD build (14,16,14,14,10,10) gets 8 str, 12 dex, & 8 con. All of those points are going to be useful to him.

Totals:
Wizard: 36 (Mostly in INT only)
Rogue: 68 (Many of which can be used wherever the rogue likes)


Oh, and about our BSF? X+STR+DEX+CON= 2+3+2+3=40 Skill points, mostly on physical skills. 8 of them are wildcard. STILL higher than the wizard, and more useful for his chosen profession.

EDIT: I direct your attention to an ongoing google doc. This spreadsheet it my attempt at mapping out spells that affect skills.

[Nytemare3701]

Strength

Climb

4 Ranks: You may climb at half your speed without the normal -5 penalty.
9 Ranks: You may climb slippery surfaces without the normal +5 to the DC.
14 Ranks: You may climb at your speed as a full round action with a -10 penalty
19 Ranks: You may use the run action while climbing. You are fatigued after doing so.

Jump

4 Ranks: Your penalty to jump from reduced speed is halved.
9 Ranks: You don't need to make the reflex save unless you fail a longjump by less than 10, instead of less than 5.
14 Ranks: If you fail your jump check, you still land on your feet instead of falling prone.
19 Ranks: Once per jump, you may change direction up to 45 degrees horizontally (left or right, not up or down. This does not count as a new jump.

Swim

4 Ranks: You may hold your breath for 3x your CON in rounds instead of 2x.
9 Ranks: You no longer take a 2x penalty to your armor check from swimming. You instead make the normal armor check.
14 Ranks: You may swim at 1/2 your movement speed as a move action or your full speed as a full round action.
19 Ranks: If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is no longer reduced by 1 round.

[Nytemare3701]

Reserved for DEX

Balance

Surefooted Stride[Task]
Rank Requirements: Balance # ranks.
Check DC: ##
Effect:

Trick Step[Trick]
Rank Requirement: Balance # ranks
Check DC: ## +# per attempt
Effect

Escape Artist

No fixes yet.

Hide

No fixes yet.

Move Silently

No fixes yet.

Open Lock

No fixes yet.

Ride

No fixes yet.

Sleight of Hand

No fixes yet.

Tumble

Use Rope

No fixes yet.

Nothing here yet either.

[Nytemare3701]

Reserved for CON

Concentration

No fixes yet.

Nothing here either.

[Nytemare3701]

Reserved for INT

Appraise

No fixes yet.

Craft

No fixes yet.

Decipher Script

No fixes yet.

Disable Device

No fixes yet.

Forgery

No fixes yet.

Knowledge

No fixes yet.

Search

No fixes yet.

Spellcraft

No fixes yet.

Speak Language (Credit to zioth)

Unlike in the traditional rules, Speak Language is an ordinary skill, based on Intelligence. It can be used to learn new languages, understand bits of unknown languages, communicate with people who don't speak your language, pronounce difficult words correctly, or correctly interpret idioms. Five ranks in this skill grants a +2 synergy bonus to Decipher Script.

Example skill checks include:
DC15: Understand a few words of a language closely related to one you know.
DC20: Understand the gist of a novel written in a language similar to one you know.
DC25: Make yourself roughly understood in a language similar to one you know. This check is charisma-based.
DC20: Make yourself roughly understood using gestures and signs. This check is charisma-based.
DC30: Understand a few words of an unknown language.
DC30: Correctly imitate an accent to sound like a native speaker. This is an opposed check, made against another person's Listen or Speak Language skill, whichever is higher. This is charisma-based. The DM may apply penalties if the language is not one ordinarily spoken by your race.
Learning New Languages: A character begins knowing his native language, plus a number of languages up to his intelligence modifier. Learning a new language requires a month of study, and a DC20 Speak Language check. Retries are permitted. Very skilled characters can reduce the study time by increasing the DC. By raising it to DC30, you can make your check once a week. By raising it to DC40, you can make your check every three days. At DC50, you can make your check once a day.

[Nytemare3701]

Reserved for WIS

Heal

No fixes yet.

Listen

No fixes yet.

Profession

No fixes yet.

Sense Motive

No fixes yet.

Spot

No fixes yet.

Survival

No fixes yet.

[Nytemare3701]

Reserved for CHA

Bluff

No fixes yet.

Diplomacy

No fixes yet.

Disguise

No fixes yet.

Gather Information

No fixes yet.

Handle Animal

No fixes yet.

Intimidate

No fixes yet.

Perform

No fixes yet.

Use Magic Device

No fixes yet.

[RobbyPants]

I'm a big fan of using skills to bestow Charles Atlas Superpowers on people.  I like to use ranks rather than DCs because it's easier to control what level the PCs can start doing things.  But this includes stuff like Hide in Sight or even Invisibility for Hide, and super jumps for Jump.  Hell, there's no reason that a 16th level person with max ranks in Balance shouldn't be able to walk on air.

Here's a list of Tome [Skill] Feats, which scale on your ranks.  Now, this isn't the same thing I was talking about, but it gives an idea of what I'm talking about.  Each feat scales with ranks in one skill and grants a benefit at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16 (assuming max ranks).  I'd start there if looking for ideas on what to have skills do.  Of course, if you hand these out natively with skills rather than with a feat, you'd have to scale them back a bit.  The [Skill] feats assume you're paying a feat to get those benefits.

[Nytemare3701]

Sounds good. I'll use that model and start converting them to feat-less versions.

Edit: Most of these don't actually need much changed. Just losing the +0 benefits fixed quite a few.

[Rejakor]

The Tome skill feats are weak for what they should be doing.

Skills should natively give stronger abilities than those feats give, if skill-monkeys are supposed to be anywhere close to partially as useful as spellcasters.

Getting rid of limitations with ranks isn't anything much to write home about.

By about 9 ranks people should be running across water and using jump to make reflex saves + get a free amount of movement.  Anything less keeps skills as a mostly-useless subsystem with only a few viable choices.

[bkdubs123]

I definitely agree with Rej.

[SneeR]

Wow, I really like this idea! Having ranks be what reduces penalties and allows more fantasitc abilities like Hide in Plain Sight makes skill monkeys shine like spellcasters can't and encourages maxing out skills.

The problem, though is when spellcasters magically enhance skill monkey's skills. They become better, and get the benefits of those rank-linked abilities. I guess it just makes them accomplish cool things easier. At least they aren't replaced!

The thing you need to focus on is making some things unable to accomplished by bonuses alone, only skill ranks. Just removing negatives doesn't rectify the problem. I am unsure how, though, for most skills. I mean, the whole idea of skills being random is that characters might be able to accomplish some amazing feat on a fluke, like a first level charcater balancing acroos a 2-inch marble beam at full speed. If you say such a thing can only be accomplished with a certain number of ranks, you hinder the skill monkey more than the casters, since the skill monkey will be making those checks more often. It sort of makes shooting above your level moot since it's impossible.

[Catty Nebulart]

I like the idea but the execution is flawed.

I'll use climb as an example.

Climb
4 Ranks: You may climb at half your speed without the normal -5 penalty.
9 Ranks: You may climb slippery surfaces without the normal +5 to the DC.
14 Ranks: You may climb at your speed as a full round action with a -10 penalty
19 Ranks: You may use the run action while climbing. You are fatigued after doing so.

1'st level (4 ranks): meh it's minor but it speeds up climbing when skilled.
3'rd level(6 ranks): At this point the skill is starting to be replaced by levitate and spider climb, but it's the wizard's highest slot. Still for this investment you should get something.
5'th level(8 ranks): At this point levitate no longer uses the highest level slot, and stronger replacements like fly and gaseous form are available. At this point it needs to start competing with at least spider climb somehow. My suggestion would be granting a climb speed.

11'th+ level (14 ranks): Climb should have given you a fly speed at this point. The wizard has had overland flight and polymorph for a few levels already. Climbing at full speed is a laughable bonus.


In addition you should be combining skills or granting synergy bonuses that compete with spells. eg, combine hide and move silently into sneak or make it so that if you have 8 ranks in both you get invisibility as a spell like ability once per day, +1 use every additional rank (Take the min ranks from both skills), and at will at 13 ranks or something.

[Nytemare3701]

I like the idea but the execution is flawed.

I'll use climb as an example.

Climb
4 Ranks: You may climb at half your speed without the normal -5 penalty.
9 Ranks: You may climb slippery surfaces without the normal +5 to the DC.
14 Ranks: You may climb at your speed as a full round action with a -10 penalty
19 Ranks: You may use the run action while climbing. You are fatigued after doing so.

1'st level (4 ranks): meh it's minor but it speeds up climbing when skilled.
3'rd level(6 ranks): At this point the skill is starting to be replaced by levitate and spider climb, but it's the wizard's highest slot. Still for this investment you should get something.
5'th level(8 ranks): At this point levitate no longer uses the highest level slot, and stronger replacements like fly and gaseous form are available. At this point it needs to start competing with at least spider climb somehow. My suggestion would be granting a climb speed.

11'th+ level (14 ranks): Climb should have given you a fly speed at this point. The wizard has had overland flight and polymorph for a few levels already. Climbing at full speed is a laughable bonus.


In addition you should be combining skills or granting synergy bonuses that compete with spells. eg, combine hide and move silently into sneak or make it so that if you have 8 ranks in both you get invisibility as a spell like ability once per day, +1 use every additional rank (Take the min ranks from both skills), and at will at 13 ranks or something.

Remember that a skill monkey tends to be good at a LOT of different things, and never runs out. They aren't a secondary caster, they are their own role. I want them to be viable as a tier 3 class, not rocking our world as a tier 1 or 2 class.

The thing you need to focus on is making some things unable to accomplished by bonuses alone, only skill ranks.

Instituting a cap on what a skill check can accomplish without ranks? That would make all epic uses of skills stop functioning for people who don't have at least 19 ranks.

[Catty Nebulart]

Remember that a skill monkey tends to be good at a LOT of different things, and never runs out. They aren't a secondary caster, they are their own role. I want them to be viable as a tier 3 class, not rocking our world as a tier 1 or 2 class.

The problem is too many skills are completly obsoleted by level 2 spells if not earlier, and for any full caster they have plenty of level 2 lots to devote to utility by level 7 or 8 when they have two extra levels of spells to be used for combat. for a non-combat use 6/day and at will tends not to be hugely different.

Alter From obsoletes climb, jump, swim, among other skills.
knock, levitate, tongues, invisibility and many others similarly obsolete skills or classes of skills. For a wizard picking them up cost a few gold and he can have them when he needs them, compare to investing things gained at levelup.

You either need to nerf or ban hundreds of spells, or you need to update skills to be able to compete. If by 7'th level you can't compete with levitate when you are investing full in skill ranks for something like climb the system is broken. You don't need to be better than a tier one (oh *** no, definitly not), but you should  not be completely obsoleted either.

[Nytemare3701]

Skills are a PART of a skill monkey's repertoire. Spells are a wizard's entire repertoire. They don't need to necessarily compete. They are just mundane tricks that anyone can do if they train hard enough. Spells are by definition shortcuts. You may be investing at each level up, but it's a resource the wizard doesn't even have (because of the skill taxes on casting skills). Don't compare skills to spells. Skill ARE worse than spells. I'm not going to beef them up THAT much. I'm just making skills better for those who actually use the rank system, as opposed to getting +skill bonuses.

In short: Climbing well doesn't make you fly. Fly makes you fly. You can be the best climber in the multiverse, but you still don't defy gravity. Skills are NOT SPELLS.


Seriously, stop looking for every facet of the game to be as good as spellcasting. I'm already nerfing spellcasting as a whole, and giving people options to fight back (see the SR thread).

[veekie]

In short: Climbing well doesn't make you fly. Fly makes you fly. You can be the best climber in the multiverse, but you still don't defy gravity. Skills are NOT SPELLS.

There lies the rub, if you obtain flight by any means(mount, template, spell, item), the skill is completely obsolete.

[Kajhera]

In short: Climbing well doesn't make you fly. Fly makes you fly. You can be the best climber in the multiverse, but you still don't defy gravity. Skills are NOT SPELLS.

There lies the rub, if you obtain flight by any means(mount, template, spell, item), the skill is completely obsolete.

Could make the skill do something neat other than grant mobility, like climb into a Gargantuan ape's armpit to stab it (letting you use Sneak Attack on critters whose vital organs might otherwise be tricky to access perhaps), use tree branches to swing your weight into powerful kicks or strikes (actually giving you some manner of boost to attacks after climbing)...

[veekie]

That works, but a skill that naturally gravitates towards ignoring gravity would probably be Jump.

[Kajhera]

That works, but a skill that naturally gravitates towards ignoring gravity would probably be Jump.

Indeed.