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Nytemare3701
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« on: February 11, 2011, 03:14:34 AM » |
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It's common knowledge that Evocation sucks. It's also common knowledge that Conjuration is ridiculously powerful because of planar binding and the like. Instead of trying to errata individual spells I'm adding rules to the school itself, thereby fixing any and all spells that would take advantage of things like Wish granting monsters.
Bolded Italicized Underlined text is an addition to the normal rules text
Feel free to add the fixes you use or specific problems that need to be addressed.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:25:50 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 03:14:47 AM » |
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Abjuration Abjurations are protective spells. They create physical or magical barriers, negate magical or physical abilities, harm trespassers, or even banish the subject of the spell to another plane of existence. Representative spells include protection from evil, dispel magic, antimagic field, and banishment.
Abjuration Rules: 1. If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.
2. If an abjuration creates a barrier that keeps certain types of creatures at bay, that barrier cannot be used to push away those creatures. If you force the barrier against such a creature, you feel a discernible pressure against the barrier. If you continue to apply pressure, you end the spell.
3. Any spell that grants an AC bonus is considered an Abjuration for the purposes of feats or abilities that enhance Abjurations.
Abjuration Comments: • Now Abjurant Champion can benefit from Mage Armor.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:05:19 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 03:15:00 AM » |
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ConjurationEach conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Con- jurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. Representative spells include the various summon monster spells, cure light wounds, raise dead, teleport, and wall of iron. Universal Conjuration Rules:A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. Calling RulesA calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled. A called creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it is incapable of casting any spells that would cost it XP, or using any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. Creation RulesA creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. It is however magical in nature, and is effected by Dispel Magic as if it were a Disintegrate spell. Poisons summoned are automatically applied directly to the weapon(s) of your choice and last 1 round/CL.Healing Rules:Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life. These include cure spells. I'm moving all of them to Necromancy.Summoning Rules:A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. Teleportation Rules:A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation. TeleportationAs an alteration to the off target rules(mostly because perfectly accurate Teleport and Plane Shift annihilates a DM's ability to prepare adequately). Applies to ALL teleportation, including Plane Shift. Plane Shift applies a chance for arriving at the wrong plane if not at least at Aware familiarity. Off target distances apply only to the horizontal plane for locations of Aware and better. For Uncertain or worse locations, a vertical displacement of 2 steps weaker(Uncertain->Accurate) also occurs. Direction is determined by a d8 for each axis, distance is determined separately for each axis. When displaced into a solid object, the creature is shunted into the nearest open space within the spell's range capable of containing it unless it is incorporeal or otherwise capable of existing in the same space as solid material. This only applies to arriving off target, intentionally arriving in a solid material leaves the creature embedded in the material and the excess material displaced to where the creature left from. Indestructible materials, materials with hardness of at least 20 and creatures always cause the teleporter to be shunted. Finally, allow chaff(clouds of floating or suspended solid material) and rain to worsen the effective Familiarity by one step. I'd throw in something about dragging grappling creatures and snares along if they fall within the weight limit(failing if they exceed the weight) as well, but thats just me. Familiarity | Distance off-target | Greater Present | 0 ft | 0ft Accurate | (1d20-CL)x5ft | 0ft Aware | (1d100-CL)x10ft | (1d20-CL)x5ft Uncertain | 1d100x100ft | 1d100x10ft Vague | 1d100 x 100 miles | 1d100x100ft False | Random location | Similar location, random | within range | or spell fails(caster choice).
-Present includes having direct line of sight, a familiar/psicrystal at the location or having an accurate sense(vision, Blindsight, anything you'd not get miss chances for if you target an attack with it) currently viewing the location. If you arrive by a Calling spell, the caster doing the Calling counts as a Present location, as does returning to the spot you were Called from. -Accurate includes having visited the location recently, a recent image of the location, having spent an extended period of time living there or an inaccurate sense currently viewing the location(e.g. Blindsense, Tremorsense). Certain beacons may count as Accurate even if they are Uncertain. -Aware includes having an accurate description of the location, having visited the location before or having a vague sense currently sensing the location(e.g hearing). -Uncertain is having a reliable description of the location(at least knowing where it is relative to a location of Aware level, sufficient to walk there from the other location). -Vague is having only a vague description of the location(relative only to Uncertain locations) -False is attempting to teleport to a location outside the range of the spell or to an entirely nonexistent location. Basically short version, making teleport mishaps and familiarity more of a limiter on teleportation. Conjuration Comments:• With the summoning restriction added to calling spells and beefed up to make the creature incapable of casting instead of simply refusing, Wish shenanigans don't work. • Creation spells have been restricted in utility slightly. • Healing might be viable in combat now that the healing feats can be used on more spells. If it's too much, let me know.
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:05:10 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 03:15:21 AM » |
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Divination Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells. Representative spells include identify, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and true seeing.
Universal Divination Rules: Many divination spells have cone-shaped areas (see page 175). These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can sweep each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.
Divination spells do not grant sufficient information to become familiar with an area, meaning they cannot be used to teleport.
Some divinations may allow spellcasting through them, but they cannot cross temporal boundaries. A Hindsight spell may be used to see the past, but any spellcasting through it is limited to purely voyeuristic divinations such as detect magic. In short, you cannot alter the past with a divination.
Scrying Rules: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you (such as darkvision or see invisibility), but not spells or effects that emanate from you (such as detect evil). However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell. Lead sheeting or magical protection (such as antimagic field, mind blank, or nondetection) blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Divination Comments: • The wire hanger is no longer possible, and any other similar shenanigans should be prevented.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:26:49 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 03:15:40 AM » |
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Enchantment Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. Representative spells include charm person and suggestion.
Universal Enchantment Rules: All enchantments are mind-affecting spells and fall under the subschools of Charms or Compulsions.
Charm Rules: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion Rules: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:04:17 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 03:15:58 AM » |
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EvocationEvocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage. Representative spells include magic missile, fireball, and lightning bolt.Frank Trollman on EvocationPolar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.
The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.
Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.
So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).
So here's what the Evocation list should look like:
Evocation Cantrips
* Burning Hands * Dancing Lights * Light * Magic Missile * Shocking Grasp
Evocation 1st Level Spells
* Fireball * Floating Disk * Gust of Wind * Lightning Bolt * Polar Ray * Sending
Evocation 2nd Level Spells
* Chain Lightning * Cone of Cold * Continual Flame * Darkness * Daylight * Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject) * Scorching Ray * Shatter
Evocation 3rd Level Spells
* Delayed Blast Fireball * Ice Storm * Shout * Tiny Hut * Wall of Fire * Wind Wall
Evocation 4th Level Spells
* Fire Shield * Interposing Hand * Resilient Sphere * Wall of Ice
Evocation 5th Level Spells
* Forceful Hand * Freezing Sphere * Mage Sword * Sunburst * Wall of Force
Evocation 6th Level Spells
* Contingency * Grasping Hand * Shout, Greater
Evocation 7th Level Spells
* Clenched Fist * Force Cage * Prismatic Spray
Evocation 8th Level Spells
* Crushing Hand * Meteor Swarm * Telekinetic Sphere
Evocation 9th Level Spells
* 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.
There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.
And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.
And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:20:27 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 03:16:16 AM » |
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Illusion Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. Representative illusions include silent image, invisibility, and veil. Illusions come in five types: figments, glamers, patterns, phantasms, and shadows.
Universal Illusion Rules: Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For examples, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusory section of floor knows the “floor” isn’t safe to walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies. A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
Figment Rules: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like. Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. For example, it is possible to use a silent image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain. A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier. There needs to be a fix for the figment vs glamer debate.
Glamer Rules: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern Rules: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm Rules: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Shadow Rules: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:16:09 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 03:16:36 AM » |
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Necromancy Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school. Representative spells include cause fear, animate dead, and finger of death.
Necromancy Rules: All spells that heal hit point damage, deal negative energy damage or negative levels are considered Necromancy spells for the purposes of feats and abilities that enhance Necromancy.
Necromancy Comments: • Just a continuation of the healing synergy from conjuration. Makes all the feats worth a little more.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:22:02 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 03:16:55 AM » |
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TransmutationTransmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. Representative spells include enlarge person, reduce person, polymorph, and shapechange.Still working on a fix for polymorph shenanigans.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 09:07:19 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2011, 08:09:02 AM » |
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Healing:Personally, I'd change Conjuration (Healing) to Necromancy (Healing). There's no reason that the school that affects life and death shouldn't have healing. Teleportation:If you want to partially prevent scry-and-die, you can limit teleportation. In the Tome series, Frank and K were coming up with a reason that dungeons exist in the first place, and they decided to limit Teleportation so that it cannot go through more than 40 feet of solid material. So, putting yourself in a dungeon keeps you safe from srcy-and-die. This is just a suggestion if you don't like that tactic. Alternately, you can limit Teleport so that you can only teleport to places you've been, or not allow Scry to count as gaining familiarity with the area. Evocation:I'm going to steal this from Frank Trollman, but here's what he had to say on Evocation, regarding Pathfinder. You could use this in 3.5 easily (and I'm planning to  ). The idea is rather than beefing up the damage dealt, lower the level it takes to cast the spell so you're not using your best spell slots on damage. Polar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.
The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.
Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.
So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).
So here's what the Evocation list should look like:
Evocation Cantrips
* Burning Hands * Dancing Lights * Light * Magic Missile * Shocking Grasp
Evocation 1st Level Spells
* Fireball * Floating Disk * Gust of Wind * Lightning Bolt * Polar Ray * Sending
Evocation 2nd Level Spells
* Chain Lightning * Cone of Cold * Continual Flame * Darkness * Daylight * Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject) * Scorching Ray * Shatter
Evocation 3rd Level Spells
* Delayed Blast Fireball * Ice Storm * Shout * Tiny Hut * Wall of Fire * Wind Wall
Evocation 4th Level Spells
* Fire Shield * Interposing Hand * Resilient Sphere * Wall of Ice
Evocation 5th Level Spells
* Forceful Hand * Freezing Sphere * Mage Sword * Sunburst * Wall of Force
Evocation 6th Level Spells
* Contingency * Grasping Hand * Shout, Greater
Evocation 7th Level Spells
* Clenched Fist * Force Cage * Prismatic Spray
Evocation 8th Level Spells
* Crushing Hand * Meteor Swarm * Telekinetic Sphere
Evocation 9th Level Spells
* 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.
There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.
And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.
And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground! Steve: You underestimate my power! Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve! Steve: *charges* Fluffy: *three critical strikes* Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2011, 08:16:46 AM » |
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Healing:Personally, I'd change Conjuration (Healing) to Necromancy (Healing). There's no reason that the school that affects life and death shouldn't have healing. Teleportation:If you want to partially prevent scry-and-die, you can limit teleportation. In the Tome series, Frank and K were coming up with a reason that dungeons exist in the first place, and they decided to limit Teleportation so that it cannot go through more than 40 feet of solid material. So, putting yourself in a dungeon keeps you safe from srcy-and-die. This is just a suggestion if you don't like that tactic. Alternately, you can limit Teleport so that you can only teleport to places you've been, or not allow Scry to count as gaining familiarity with the area. Evocation:I'm going to steal this from Frank Trollman, but here's what he had to say on Evocation, regarding Pathfinder. You could use this in 3.5 easily (and I'm planning to  ). The idea is rather than beefing up the damage dealt, lower the level it takes to cast the spell so you're not using your best spell slots on damage. Healing: Sure, I don't see why not. Teleportation: The limit on divination will take care of scry-and-die. Thanks for that! Evocation: Perfect. Go Frank! Edit: On to Transmutation...I think I'm going to have to write some sort of errata, since the normal one sure as hell didn't fix it.
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 08:24:12 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 08:56:29 AM » |
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Polymorph is always going to be hard to fix. As written, you basically replace your physical body with something else and you keep your mental stats and casting ability. It's next to impossible to find a way to balance this, and it's totally undoable if you limit by something stupid like Hit Dice. Frank & K have created two versions of fixes, neither which I have tried:
Option 1: Character replacement Basically, you replace your character with another monster. It shares your alignment and goals, but otherwise, you are flat out playing a monster as printed form the monster manual. You gain it's mental stats and you only have spellcasting if it does. The power level is not limited by HD to caster level, but instead is the monsters CR, which cannot be greater than your CL - 3. So, a 7th level wizard could polymoprh into a CR 4 or lower monster.
Option 2: Fixed form spells You make a bunch of spells that each offer a single fixed form.
The advantage of option 1 is it's easy to implement and it doesn't take a lot of time for you to redo your stat block when you cast it. The drawback is it's likely still abusable. The advantage of option 2 is it's easier to make sure it's balanced, but the drawback is you need to create a crapton of spells to pull it off.
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My balancing 3.5 compendiumElemental mage test gameQuotesIt is a shame stupidity isn't painful. Totally true. Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment. Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?" I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife. A dull, rusty knife. A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife. Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground! Steve: You underestimate my power! Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve! Steve: *charges* Fluffy: *three critical strikes* Steve: **** I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet. When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!" Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 09:05:20 AM » |
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Option 1: Character replacement Basically, you replace your character with another monster. It shares your alignment and goals, but otherwise, you are flat out playing a monster as printed form the monster manual. You gain it's mental stats and you only have spellcasting if it does. The power level is not limited by HD to caster level, but instead is the monsters CR, which cannot be greater than your CL - 3. So, a 7th level wizard could polymoprh into a CR 4 or lower monster.
The advantage of option 1 is it's easy to implement and it doesn't take a lot of time for you to redo your stat block when you cast it. The drawback is it's likely still abusable.
Adding the fix I used for conjuration would wipe out 90% of the remaining abuse. (no casting XP spells) I'll go with this for now, unless I figure something else out in the meantime.
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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veekie
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 02:09:38 AM » |
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AbjurationAs a school, this is a little underwhelming really, though in the light of magic being as good as it is, thats not a massive issue. Possible improvements may be moving/dual-schooling some of the Conjuration and Evocation barrier spells into Abjuration. Note that the 'best' wall, Wall of Force is not an abjuration. As for the points(yes, including the default rules): 1. This isn't particularly significant, but might be if its widened to include other spell schools and the minimum duration reduced(any spell lasting more than an hour could do) AND if standard search DCs for detecting spells in effect are available(as usual specific spells override general). In effect, this means contingent spells give a visible warning, and long duration buffs give casters a bit of a 'buzzing' feeling. The intent is clear at least, to make it possible to avoid magical wards and traps when they're stacked up. 2. Might be good to allow such a barrier to push creatures away, but require a successful check or lose the barrier when forced this way. Fictionally, it has some basis in barrier warrior sorts. 3. More a patch for Abjuration focused PrCs that make certain assumptions, I guess? Theres some flaws in the broad approach though. Consider, most form alteration magic would grant Nat AC bonus. They'd also benefit. ConjurationFor the 'appear inside' aspect, an alternative is just requiring line of effect and applying the teleport shunt to the conjured creature/object, what with the possible malicious misinterpretation of the 'inside creature or object' in that a house is an object. As for support, an alternative might be to standardise the DCs and damage caps for a falling creature/object created via conjuration. Just use spell DC and make the max damage some factor of CL. Calling wise, I don't think that quite covers enough. Something you can do with it: Calling spells only provide a means for the called creature to arrive at your location. The creature gets a Sending(25 word limit, generally identifying the caster), and is transported to a point within range as if by Plane Shift & Teleport. Unwilling creatures get a will save. You require some knowledge of the creature to Call it, either a true name or some appropriate material component(e.g. part of the creature, or an appropriate symbol for a deity's servitors). The entity may send a servitor or Aspect instead, so long as the replacement is within the spells' capabilities. The creature is not compelled to assist you in any way, and if it succeeds at a second will save(presuming it let the first one through or failed it), it gets to go home. In order to compel it, you'd need to bargain with it normally or exert some other means of coercion. They will generally charge you at the going rate for spellcasting for the use of any specific abilities and an equivalent task for services. Essentially, the idea is if you're ringing up a creature, you'd need to have a bargain or alliance of some sort and be reasonably convincing. Fits the fantasy use of it in fiction too. Bonus, you get to use it to Call party members to you. Wish and other XP cost spells would be difficult to convince the creature to part with, unless of course it used them already. Healing wise...I favor just making all the Conjuration[Healing] into Necromancy[Healing]. Conjurers can heal already, via Summons. TeleportationAs an alteration to the off target rules(mostly because perfectly accurate Teleport and Plane Shift annihilates a DM's ability to prepare adequately). Applies to ALL teleportation, including Plane Shift. Plane Shift applies a chance for arriving at the wrong plane if not at least at Aware familiarity. Off target distances apply only to the horizontal plane for locations of Aware and better. For Uncertain or worse locations, a vertical displacement of 2 steps weaker(Uncertain->Accurate) also occurs. Direction is determined by a d8 for each axis, distance is determined separately for each axis. When displaced into a solid object, the creature is shunted into the nearest open space within the spell's range capable of containing it unless it is incorporeal or otherwise capable of existing in the same space as solid material. This only applies to arriving off target, intentionally arriving in a solid material leaves the creature embedded in the material and the excess material displaced to where the creature left from. Indestructible materials, materials with hardness of at least 20 and creatures always cause the teleporter to be shunted. Finally, allow chaff(clouds of floating or suspended solid material) and rain to worsen the effective Familiarity by one step. I'd throw in something about dragging grappling creatures and snares along if they fall within the weight limit(failing if they exceed the weight) as well, but thats just me. Familiarity | Distance off-target | Greater Present | 0 ft | 0ft Accurate | (1d20-CL)x5ft | 0ft Aware | (1d100-CL)x10ft | (1d20-CL)x5ft Uncertain | 1d100x100ft | 1d100x10ft Vague | 1d100 x 100 miles | 1d100x100ft False | Random location | Similar location, random | within range | or spell fails(caster choice).
-Present includes having direct line of sight, a familiar/psicrystal at the location or having an accurate sense(vision, Blindsight, anything you'd not get miss chances for if you target an attack with it) currently viewing the location. If you arrive by a Calling spell, the caster doing the Calling counts as a Present location, as does returning to the spot you were Called from. -Accurate includes having visited the location recently, a recent image of the location, having spent an extended period of time living there or an inaccurate sense currently viewing the location(e.g. Blindsense, Tremorsense). Certain beacons may count as Accurate even if they are Uncertain. -Aware includes having an accurate description of the location, having visited the location before or having a vague sense currently sensing the location(e.g hearing). -Uncertain is having a reliable description of the location(at least knowing where it is relative to a location of Aware level, sufficient to walk there from the other location). -Vague is having only a vague description of the location(relative only to Uncertain locations) -False is attempting to teleport to a location outside the range of the spell or to an entirely nonexistent location. Basically short version, making teleport mishaps and familiarity more of a limiter on teleportation. DivinationI'm not so sure about the no divination thing with teleportation. It's a common trope to extend a scrying window into a portal. Just ensure that only spells which extend a sensor can count and make it harder to scry on specific people. What if scrying requires at the minimum, a Firsthand knowledge or a personal possession to target the sensor(essentially removing the Secondhand and Likeness conditions)? EvocationA serious releveling is needed, so yeah, F&K is a good place to start. IllusionStandard Spot/Search/Listen/Perception DCs should allow the same save as interaction. Preferably whatever you use for traps, so illusory floors/walls are not automatically perfect pit traps/secret doors. TransmutationProbably want to move Telekinesis to Evocation. Beyond that, the three polymorph fixes are: -Total sheet replacement, name says it all. --Pros - Its very simple to implement. --Cons - Theres still some niche problems with overpowered monsters, and theres still the crazy versatility. -Stat relativity, you gain typed ability bonuses based on the creature archetype you're shifting into, as well as gain specific special abilities, natural attacks(with upper limit on usable limbs/weapons) senses and movement modes outlined by the spell. --Pros - Probably the most balanced way to do it. --Cons - A lot of work is needed(you need to create archetype stas or just crib them from Pathfinder for each archetype and go through monsters to identify 'safe' abilities and movement modes. Also has the mad versatility issue. Basically this is the way the Bite of the Were[foo] spells work. -Specific spells per form(which can use one of the above two) Polymorph Any Object need to be made so you can't stack it with itself or other transmutation spells to obtain permanent changes.
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« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 02:21:21 AM by veekie »
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~" -Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon. Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei. Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato. Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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Nytemare3701
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 10:51:44 AM » |
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That was one hell of a post. I don't even know where to start.
Teleportation: I don't see anything wrong with that. I'll just copy your writeup, then format and edit it for readability in the pdf.
Healing: I submit! I'll just move them all to necromancy.
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« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:04:13 AM by Nytemare3701 »
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ALT+7 to make a • Clean up your posts and people tend to react better to them. My rewrites: Mechanics There's RAI, and then there's RAW, and then there's "Hey, if I deliberately misread this look how powerful it is!" – Caelic
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veekie
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 02:01:56 PM » |
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Theres also some things that can be done with future divining divinations, but its going to take a while to sort out.
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~" -Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon. Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei. Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato. Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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Bauglir
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2011, 04:39:55 PM » |
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I'm gonna steal a lot of these for my caster rewrites, if you don't mind. The evocation relevelling is perfect.
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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BrokeAndDrive
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  
Posts: 189
Why are there no ghosts of dinosaurs?
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2011, 08:06:06 PM » |
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Evocation 9th Level Spells * 9th level Spells must be written for this [school]. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most [schools] have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.
Shout, Godlike Meteo Thermostat Dialed to 11 Evocation [Cold or Fire] Level: Druid 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 80 ft./level Area: 80 cu. ft./level emanation, centered on you Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No
This spell can be cast as either either a cold version or fire version. Fire means the area is filled with unimaginable heat which deals 50 fire damage per round to each target in the area. Cold means the area is filled with likewise unimaginable cold which deals 50 cold damage per round to each target in the area. The area is also considered affected by unearthly cold or unearthly heat (see Frostburn and Sandstorm, respectively).
Material Component One normal-sized tankard (for your size category) full of mercury, which the caster gulps down as part of the somatic component. If the caster vomits up the mercury (which remains in the caster's system for the duration of the spell), or is affected by any poison cure, the spell ends. Delay Poison works normally, and the caster may succeed on the Fortitude save -- the caster can be immune to poison; this spell only cares if the caster has ingested the mercury. (is there a mercury poison from, say, an issue of Dragon Magazine?)
Note: The DM must adjudicate exactly what environmental catastrophy occurs should this spell be cast as a cold effect in an area of extreme heat (equatorial desert at noon, elemental plane of fire) or cast as a fire effect in an area of extreme cold (northern or southern pole in the middle of several-month-long night, paraelemental plane of ice). Misanthropic Violent Hellblast Evocation Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Extreme (1600 ft. + 160 ft./level) Area: 80-ft./CL-radius spread; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex three-quarters (effects such as Evasion reduce to one-quarter damage on a successful save rather than no damage), then Fortitude partial; see text Spell Resistance: No
This spell is the fireball to end all fireballs. It works the same way, only harder, louder, and faster: it deals 1d12+CL per level damage (average of 399 damage at CL 17) to all in the area. The atomic-bomb-esque explosion eradicates structures in its way (acts as a disintegrate effect on objects) so there is no hiding from the spread. Those in the area who survive must then make a Fortitude save or die from the force of the blast, reduced to a fine dust, unless the target's maximum hit points are above thirty times the caster's level (510 hp at CL 17). Those who make the save instead take CL/3 ability drain to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as a poison effect. This poison effect persists in the area for 1 month/CL after the spell ends, and those in the area can be poisoned for half this damage as initial and secondary ability damage. Three times the radius outside the area (320-ft./CL-radius spread except within the original radius, effectively) takes 1d8 damage per CL from the shockwave. Same Reflex save, no further effect. Supernova Goes Pop Evocation [Electricity, Fire, Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Extreme (1600 ft. + 160 ft./level) Effect: Extreme-range radius sphere centered on you Duration: 1 round/3 levels Saving Throw: Fortitude three-quarters (effects such as Mettle reduce to one-quarter damage on a successful save rather than no damage) Spell Resistance: No
At the beginning of your turn after you complete casting, and for several rounds thereafter (equal to one round per three caster levels) you release an explosion not unlike a dying sun. Everything, from monsters to structures to the ground itself takes 2d12+CL points of electricity damage, 2d12+CL points of fire damage, and 2d12 points of force damage per caster level (e.g., at CL 18 you're dealing a total of 108d12+648 damage to everything in a 4,480 ft. radius sphere for the next six rounds), except for you (including your equipment and up to your caster level in creatures (including their equipment), uncarried objects, or structures up to 10 cubic feet per caster level (you choose whenever this spell goes off, including in later rounds). A successful Fortitude save brings this to three-quarters damage (75%), and effects such as Mettle reduce to one-quarter damage on a successful save rather than no damage. Anything (creatures, objects, etc) immune to fire, force, and/or electricity are treated as having 50 points of respective resistance and a bonus on their Fortitude save vs. this spell equal to one-quarter its hit dice, and this spell ignores up to your CL in resistance and hardness. This spell ignores all antimagic effects (but not a zone of dead magic) and destroys persistent force effects such as a wall of force or forcecage (but not spells such as mage armor) and destroys three layers of a prismatic effect such as prismatic wall or prismatic sphere. This spell affects everything on all planes coexistent to the one where this is cast (even if you plane shift while this is active). You may only have one Supernova Goes Pop active at any one time. Any further casting or effect from a scroll, supernatural attack, etc., ends any current Supernova Goes Pop effect before the new one's applied.
Material Component A small palm full of fine material from an exploded star (space dust, basically).
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Random quotes: I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year ~
That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.
==
JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.
So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument. ~
And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.
Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table. ~
My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.
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Bauglir
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2011, 08:26:13 PM » |
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Actually Meteo and Thermostat Dialed to 11 both seem fine, although I'd drop the silly material component on that latter. Godlike Shout would be fine if the distance were less unwieldy (900 feet is obnoxiously large compared to the size of the average combat map, but not obnoxiously large enough that the victims are totally removed from battle; my preference would be for something just over 100 feet) and if the Fort save were a bit more useful (negate the stunning entirely, and negate the deafening, but not affect the damage). Those seem kind of like what 9th level spells should actually be doing, given the paradigm of stopping goddamn time.
EDIT: Although they make one of those abilities for shaping the areas of your spells pretty much mandatory, else "Oh fuck, my best friend just melted."
MORE EDITING: Actually, Meteo could use some buffing, even. Maybe just eliminate saves entirely and remove the need for a touch attack, since it IS an 8-foot rock. Forgot, it actually ups the number you get. Keep the save, then, or else make it 1 meteor per 2 caster levels. Maybe. 120d6 still only averages 540 damage, anyway, which doesn't even auto-kill everything at level 17+ (which it should if you're allowed a save). Auto-kills most, but then again, that's before factoring in the inevitable immunity to or resistance to half the damage. So maybe a better way to go about it would be make all the damage untyped and hellfire, allow Reflex half on all of it, including the meteors themselves, and up the bludgeoning (now untyped) damage to 4d6.
YET MORE EDITING: Oh, it's a swift action. Make it standard, I was balancing under the assumption it was standard. Aaand it's duration concentration, but you don't say what happens after you first cast it? I assume more meteors keep falling. I'm not actually sure whether that's unbalanced or not. Only conceivable with things that can concentrate for you, I suppose. Oh well.
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:43:52 AM by Bauglir »
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So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.
In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.
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veekie
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2011, 10:50:43 PM » |
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Evocation's higher spells should rather resemble this.Note that however, devastating areas are not necessarily so high level. I expect a Fireball equivalent with a 10ft radius per CL to be at best, 5th level without any rider effects beyond setting it all on fire on a failed save.
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The mind transcends the body. It's also a little cold because of that. Please get it a blanket. I wish I could read your mind, I can barely read mine. "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~" -Ibuki Suika, on overkill
To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon. Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei. Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato. Khiliarkhou Astrape!
There is no higher price than 'free'. "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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