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Author Topic: IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!  (Read 15016 times)
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2011, 07:47:51 PM »

To be entirely fair, the thread served a purpose. The OP figured out that monks are worthless, even if the majority of the posters there claimed otherwise.

Learning in action. Nonetheless, it can be an ugly process. Hugs Rejakor!
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2011, 09:07:09 PM »

To be entirely fair, the thread served a purpose. The OP figured out that monks are worthless, even if the majority of the posters there claimed otherwise.

Learning in action. Nonetheless, it can be an ugly process. Hugs Rejakor!
Seconded on all counts. On the other hand, I had a wonderful laugh at the guy who tried to prove that monks could be viable in combat by blowing all his level 20 wealth on defensive gear (including an animated shield), an ioun stone for spell immunity (which takes readied actions) and various wands (which would either mean he's spent half his skill points ever on having a 50% chance of activating the wand, or he's counting on the efforts of a friendly caster/skillmonkey to do it properly), at the expense of any high-level capabilities other than his one/day D-Door.
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Solo
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zhangzidong
« Reply #202 on: February 18, 2011, 01:30:53 AM »

Hahaha... monks and Animated Shields.

Man, I gotta suggest that tactic to Giacomo.
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #203 on: February 18, 2011, 06:40:51 AM »

It is still very sobering/funny to read a bunch of BS that people can believe in their hearts.  I loved how that one guy was like "The lion should have been killed by the end of round 2.  AoO and should not have 5 attacks."  I fear for the human race.

So... 1 round after the Monk dies?

Also, lol Animated shields. The Mook is the only class in the entire game that can't use one.
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If you hear this music, run.

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
Agita
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Justym2c
« Reply #204 on: February 18, 2011, 08:04:54 AM »

Hahaha... monks and Animated Shields.

Man, I gotta suggest that tactic to Giacomo.
You mean Giacomo didn't use that tactic already? Honestly, the first person I thought about when I read that was him. Or maybe I'm just prejudiced.
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Dictum Mortuum
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« Reply #205 on: February 18, 2011, 09:58:15 AM »

Check out post 74 of that thread Tongue
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Shadeseraph
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« Reply #206 on: February 19, 2011, 02:03:32 PM »

Check out post 74 of that thread Tongue

Hey, at least he gets one think right - the monk is shit.

But well, saying that the fighter outshines the casters at low levels...

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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #207 on: February 19, 2011, 02:04:51 PM »

If you think that's bad, some clowns recently tried to defend the Pathfailure Fighter. Aka, the really expensive and perhaps not entirely trustworthy packmule.
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Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
lans
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« Reply #208 on: February 19, 2011, 02:23:40 PM »

If you think that's bad, some clowns recently tried to defend the Pathfailure Fighter. Aka, the really expensive and perhaps not entirely trustworthy packmule.
The Pathfinder Fighter is the weakest Fighter, out side of maybe Basic.
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #209 on: February 19, 2011, 03:28:50 PM »

Earlier edition fighters were at least half decent. So Pathfailure Fighter is the weakest.
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Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
Bloody Initiate
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« Reply #210 on: February 19, 2011, 03:56:18 PM »

I don't have the Pathfinder books, but when I looked at them (the brief one time I looked at them) I only remember the fighter being the 3.5 fighter + a bunch of stuff that didn't look that helpful or that bad.

So since fighter hate flows so freely, anyone mind explaining how the Pathfinder fighter is worse? Mind you I'm not contesting the point (Because I barely remember anything about him except maybe that he reduced ACP), I just don't understand it. Is it a problem with the class specifically or the Pathfinder elements in which it operates?
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Anarchy_Kanya
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« Reply #211 on: February 19, 2011, 04:14:25 PM »

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter

I'm curious to how is the PF Fighter worse then the 3.5 one?
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Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
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lans
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« Reply #212 on: February 19, 2011, 04:26:53 PM »

Because of Pathfinders nerfs to Melee and everybody else getting more powerful.

Its +5AC/Attacks/Damage/DR and damage vs PA, Standstill, Tripping nerfs, and spell casters no longer have to even fake worry about running out of steam.

Plus Pathfinder not having nearly as good feats from what I've seen.

So yes the problem is Pathfinder. If you port over the Pathfinder Fighter to 3.5 it will be a bit stronger. Though I think 2nd edition Fighter would be the better class to port.
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Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar
Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #213 on: February 19, 2011, 05:20:27 PM »

Because of Pathfinders nerfs to Melee and everybody else getting more powerful.

Its +5AC/Attacks/Damage/DR and damage vs PA, Standstill, Tripping nerfs, and spell casters no longer have to even fake worry about running out of steam.

Plus Pathfinder not having nearly as good feats from what I've seen.

So yes the problem is Pathfinder. If you port over the Pathfinder Fighter to 3.5 it will be a bit stronger. Though I think 2nd edition Fighter would be the better class to port.

This.

Beatsticks have only ever had two tricks. DPS, and maneuvers. DPS of course means two handed chargers, and maneuvers means tripping and nothing else. Every aspect of both of these has been nerfed, then more nerfs were piled on top of that (like Animated nerf - shoves it to beatsticks, no one else cares). The other beatsticks were also nerfed, but since they were never usable to begin with, no one cares.

It's like taking a car that costs say... 5,000 dollars, removing the engine, and a few other things from under the hood, then selling it for 4,900. Idiots will think they're getting a good deal. Anyone who looks under the hood realizes they are being ripped off.

On top of that yes, Pathfailure feats are weaker. At least for beatsticks. More deceptive sales. Hell, some of them literally do less than nothing, like Step Up, which can Step On Out because you can do that better for free.
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Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
lans
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« Reply #214 on: February 19, 2011, 07:24:50 PM »

Beatsticks have only ever had two tricks. DPS, and maneuvers. DPS of course means two handed chargers, and maneuvers means tripping and nothing else.

Their are other manuevers, but a lot less common. Standstill, Boomerang Daze are the good ones.

Standstill was also nerfed, and Boomerang Daze doesn't exist.
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veekie
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« Reply #215 on: February 19, 2011, 10:41:25 PM »

Basically, the issue is that the class, objectively speaking, is made stronger(yes, the Power Attack change is a buff to anyone who isn't an optimizer, since the feat is stronger at low levels of optimisation than at high, old Power Attack is a trap for anyone who didn't actually manage to get their to-hit to the right places, or failed to guess the target AC), but casters are made stronger as well, despite some spell nerfs, so subjectively they manage to become weaker.

The crux is where the changes hit, at the top end of optimization for Fighters, the vast majority of optimized builds revolve around dumping all of to-hit into Power Attack For Great Justice. Thats no longer possible.

Things that useful on it:
Phalanx Soldier Alternate I wouldn't mind having one of these guys as a cohort. Portable cover to cancel out AoOs yay.
Mobile Fighter Alternate This one gives SOME hope to Spring Attack fighting, but of course, anyone using this for real should remember this thing called Reach + AoO
2H Fighter Alternate Not a bad dip for a barbarian or even a self buffing alchemist sort. Its not like Strength is a difficult stat to whore.
The Critical feats look nice-ish, but are too random to seriously count on much, with crits going to be at best 1/4 chance of triggering without hijinks, AND a save. And then theres the retarded thing with only being able to use one of them at a time. Two if you got the mastery feat. At least the save DC is fairly high.
Manyshot changed so that its not much good for shoot-n-run anymore. Hell, its not much good for precision damage anymore either. And Greater Manyshot can't be found.
The Vital Strike chain isn't much good and is a trap unless you're tapping 3.5 material for supersizing your weapon(hello Greater Mighty Whallop), then MAYBE its worth something.
Teleport Tactician could be worth SOMETHING, if it didn't have so many prereqs.
Sidestep is handy against full attacking enemies without Reach, pity it takes 2 bad prereqs.
Power Attack can't be used to dump excess to hit into damage anymore, on the other hand it works with light weapons, and the exchange rate is more favorable. 1:2 ratio by default, 1:3 with 2H, 1:1 with off hand, is superior to old Power Attack with the exception of optimised ubercharging or the like. The average player would be more able to use it at the least. And Furious Focus basically lets you use it for free. Deadly Aim gives a ranged equivalent, which is nice to have.
Step Up is pretty useful for Reach-AoO users, stopping the 5ft step  out of reach to cast trick, but theres still ways to get past that.
Stunning/Dazing Assault are effective enough, though less than they look. Not bad for stunlocking I suppose, but you need to hit AND the target needs to fail the Fort save(which isn't easily raised for DC AND is one of the better saves for monsters). Maybe if you can get a TWF full attack going and hit with all of them. But the target's probably already dead in that case.
Cleave and Great Cleave are messed with, less exploitable, but more likely to trigger.

Fundamental issue remains unchanged, You need many feats to be good at ONE way of fighting, maybe two. There are few good feats to extend a given combat style to higher levels(and those are prereq heavy). You lose out on the 3.5 feats in relatively obscure sources.
On the other hand, Archery becomes more managable(Deadly Aim after all, works on Manyshot) but less mobile(see Manyshot).
Spring Attacking/TWFing as a fighter is now less automatically fail. You're sorta locked into the Mobile Fighter though.
Shields are the same old same old, but Phalanx Fighter does let you use a reach weapon with one, which makes you a snapping turtle with a long neck. Still a turtle though, but at least you have a decent zone of control and you can do useful things like providing cover to the casters so they don't care about AoOs. More a cohort role than a party member role to be honest.
Ubercharging is dead. Stand Still is dead. This is why Fighters can't have nice things.
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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #216 on: February 20, 2011, 11:01:47 AM »

Beatsticks have only ever had two tricks. DPS, and maneuvers. DPS of course means two handed chargers, and maneuvers means tripping and nothing else.

Their are other manuevers, but a lot less common. Standstill, Boomerang Daze are the good ones.

Standstill was also nerfed, and Boomerang Daze doesn't exist.

Stand Still was a subset of tripping. Boomerang Daze is campaign specific. But yeah.

There is also no such thing as casual melee in Pathfailure. Inexperienced players attempting to beatstick still automatically fail, so all the PA nerf really does is make monsters more deadly, make having an AC any higher than you get by incidental bonuses completely worthless, and make beatsticks fail at life.

Replacing the only things that actually work with Monk style shiny, useless junk in no way justifies fail classes or proves they are not fail.
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Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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