IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!

[skydragonknight]

Common encounters - no major IP proofing needed.
Boss fights - my team is my IP proofing.

So you define every monster with a save or lose as a boss, basically?

[veekie]

Yeah, SoDs makes it so that you risk being taken out with no quick recovery, though your party probably will pulverise the non-boss encounter shortly after.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

This. IP proofing not only means you can continue playing a character long term and exploring their story, it also means you can continue playing, as opposed to sitting out.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

This. IP proofing not only means you can continue playing a character long term and exploring their story, it also means you can continue playing, as opposed to sitting out.

Yes. This are good points. And I'm not saying "Don't IP proof". I'm just saying that it's not THAT important.
Of course your opinion may differ.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

Last I checked, there were ways other than my own that still involve playing. However, death prohibits playing.

Hi Welcome

[Anarchy_Kanya]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

Last I checked, there were ways other than my own that still involve playing. However, death prohibits playing.

And which don't involve IP proofing like crazy?

Hi Welcome

Sir, you are too kind.

[veekie]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

Last I checked, there were ways other than my own that still involve playing. However, death prohibits playing.

And which don't involve IP proofing like crazy?

You need a skilled DM to do that without taking challenge out of the game entirely.
Some forms of IP proofing are stopping onehit kills, these are easy to spot and adjust for.
Some forms of IP proofing are statistical. Where do AC act as an effective immunity to damage? What saves do you need to keep the damage and debuffs on a sane level. Learning where to put this is an art AND a science.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

Last I checked, there were ways other than my own that still involve playing. However, death prohibits playing.

And which don't involve IP proofing like crazy?

You need a skilled DM to do that without taking challenge out of the game entirely.
Some forms of IP proofing are stopping onehit kills, these are easy to spot and adjust for.
Some forms of IP proofing are statistical. Where do AC act as an effective immunity to damage? What saves do you need to keep the damage and debuffs on a sane level. Learning where to put this is an art AND a science.

If I'm not sure about power level of my players, then I'm probing them with a couple of encounters and observe. There's much to learn, even if the PCs breeze trough the fights. Of course I'm adjusting each following fight based on what I learned and I try to take different angles.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you don't consider it that important to show up to play a game to play it, then you're right. IP proofing isn't necessary. Most people play games to play them though, not to sit out of playing them.

Yes, because not playing the game like YOU play it is wrong.

Last I checked, there were ways other than my own that still involve playing. However, death prohibits playing.

And which don't involve IP proofing like crazy?

Well no, because without luck proofing you die a lot. That's the whole point. But it's quite arrogant of you for you to call that my way. After all, I hardly invented optimization. IP Proofing just puts a name to what we all know.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Well, you're preaching about it like it's some cool new religion, so I asumed that it's how you play.

[skydragonknight]

Let's assume for a moment that we're not talking optimization...we're building a narrative: an epic tale. Would it make sense for a hero to die randomly midway through an adventure to a disintigration trap? Not really...there's no real tension, only "THAT sucked." When it comes to a good story, I'm a firm believer that only bosses and mid-bosses should be able to permanently take a character out of commission....but with the amount of randomness inherent in the d&d system, it's impossible to assure that a character doesn't die to a confirmed crit by a dire rat, "dying valiantly for the noble cause of cleaning the inn-keeper's basement."

By any name, protecting against random, senseless death makes sense both from optimization and roleplaying perspectives. If the baddie does off you, it should be because he's just that badass and not because he got a lucky shot.

[Littha]

Or he was REALLY lucky and the gods want you dead.

[Gods_Trick]

If the baddie does off you, it should be because he's just that badass and not because he got a lucky shot.

  Exactly why we IP proof.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Again, I'm not against IP proofing OR CO. Really.
It's just that for me it's not the most important thing, because my GM is out to kill my character, but instead his trying to make the game entertaining.

[SeekingKnight]

It isn't the DM/Gm/ext trying to take out your character.  See for me if the DM is not making a challenge out of the encounter or even says "Next time tell me when you are about to die so I can have the monster attack someone else." then I feel no connection to my character as there is no sense that said character would be close to mortality.  Yes it is a common fact that in D&D you will probably die a lot unless you IP proof.  Hell before I was on the fence with IP proofing, as in i see the merits but was like I dunno if it is needed, now I am all for it.

Quick example:  Two days ago I visited my old gaming group.  I had a cleric made up for their "undead" game.  Besides the game starting way to late I had to play a minion to a character because I was not a "regular" to the sessions.  So I choose to play a sorcerer minion and was told I could tweak it.  So I just remade the damn thing since it looked like utter crap.  The party gets into a fight with two rune hounds that a vampire sent at us.  Well with three clerics as main characters, a dex fighter, a sorcerer, and a ranger we should have done alright correct?  We sucked bad.  Once the npc was done talking and sent his pets at us one cleric had his spiritual weapon attack one hound as he shut the door.  After twelve seconds his weapon reappeared by his side and by looking into the room once door was reopened it was empty.  So the three clerics went into the room to search it.  I stayed in the other room and should have buffed up but that is my bad and I learned from it.  The hounds somehow got to me and the ranger and attacked us.  I took 6 damage and the took like 14 so I can out better but still not good.  Well ranger decided to tumble into the other room where he remained the entire fight doing nothing..not a damn thing so a totally useless character.  "Tank" cleric came back and attacked a hound as dex fighter attacked the other. I casted Protection from Evil on myself just in case.  They slug it out with their hounds, "tank" cleric did not use two hands nor power attack on said critter do he was doing pitiful damage, dex fighter was doing ok but it is a fighter.  Other cleric does in combat healing one "tank" cleric that is a losing cycle.  My turn comes up, and by turn DM made a house rule to where combat went in a circle no initiative was ever rolled as "it takes too long to figure out herp derp".  I figure to use glitterdust from my spell list, turns out I had to use the minions spell list which sucked.  Nothing on it was worth taking..at all.  So I did magic missile Wooot /sarcasm.  COmbat lasted six flippin rounds.  It took us nearly 2 hours to finish.

It was there that I knew Sunic is right.  Yes playing with friends is fun as it the story of the characters. But without IP proofing the character will not last long.  Without even intelligence usage of minimal optimization characters will die fast.  I want my characters to live and explore their story but by the same token I don't want to want luck to play a part of anything.  Hell all the guys in the group rolled their stats and their hp per level.  So some very odd numbers were out there.

Sorry for long rant but to make it clear Sunic is 100% right.  He won me over.  IP proof and not be CAPed or gtfo.

[Whisper]

Well no, because without luck proofing you die a lot.

Not necessarily.

There's something else that can happen... but it's worse.

If characters aren't luck-proofed, and they're in a game where the GM doesn't really understand these things, then what can happen is that the GM starts "soft banning" all sorts of tactics by not using them against PCs. Essentially, the GM begins compensating for the players' mistakes in order to avoid an excessive death rate.

But leads to a sort of "foam padded universe" game where there's no fun, because there's no challenge and no risk. A sense of accomplishment comes from overcoming obstacles, not from Mommy snatching them away lest her Precious Snowflakes bruise their special selves.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

All in all what Sunic i writing is kinda true, from the statistical/mathematical point.

But DnD isn't an cRPG. There's more then raw numbers. You will call it "coddling" by the GM or failing at optimization, but for me overcoming a challenge despite my weaknessesis the greatest fun ever.

And yes, there is a need for a competent GM for it to work.

[Solo]

But DnD isn't an cRPG. There's more then raw numbers. You will call it "coddling" by the GM or failing at optimization, but for me overcoming a challenge despite my weaknessesis the greatest fun ever.

While character should not be invincible, I think we can all agree that there should be some baseline minimum for competence that is above a dex based Fighter/Duelist who took Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense.