IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!

[Sunic_Flames]

For what it's worth:

Most common things you should get immunity against: Death, Mind Affecting, Precision.

Death = Death Ward, Soulfire, etc.
Mind Affecting = Mind Blank, to a lesser extent Protection and Magic Circle against Alignment, among others.
Precision (criticals, sneak attacks) = Heavy Fort, Elemental Body, Heart of (all four), among others.

Fear and poison are also semi common, and already covered. Disease you can really just ignore with the Fort save boosting you should do anyways. Elements might be useful, but are mainly a high level only thing (for immunity). However the high saves you should have anyways + a level appropriate resist means little to no damage most of the time.

[Littha]

So Maug Paladin 2 a good idea then?

[Sunic_Flames]

So Maug Paladin 2 a good idea then?

What in the blue fuck is a Maug?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So Maug Paladin 2 a good idea then?

What in the blue fuck is a Maug?

...

[Endarire]

In a logical magic setting which Whisper describes, you still have people.  You probably still have civilizations, but these places re more like utopias or dystopias than 13th century Europe.

What do these people do, now that menial labor has been, effectively, outsourced to magic?

Many adventure, of course!  Why?  Well, what else would they do?  Maybe they'll do something artistic, like write/perform/watch plays.  Maybe they'll innovate magic item creation or research lots of spells.  Maybe they'll be the best nonmagical X they can be.

But to use these innovations and this training, they'll probably have to leave Mithal City and start doing things for themselves.  In such a situation, it seems like every has a tactical nuke handy, meaning something very deadly that can take on many forms.  (Wands, spells, maneuvers, minions, whatever.)  People are just very cautious about using it around other civilized folk.  Maybe the tac nuke users will be able to reuse their nuke.  Maybe the users will survive using their nuke.

Regarding XP, I just award levels when the plot calls for it.  Usually, this is after big missions, or every 3-5 sessions.  This has reduced hassle a lot.

PS: mind blank.

[skydragonknight]

So Maug Paladin 2 a good idea then?

What in the blue fuck is a Maug?

Fiend Folio p 121

There was also a very recent thread about them.

[SeekingKnight]

Few things I wish to touch on.

@Sunic:  I am understanding what you are talking about.  Nothing can ever be 100% and not every situation can be covered because a DM can randomly change things.  Still I see the sense in wanting to have things set so a party does not have to worry about a monster(s) attack because they got the jump on it.  I have seen too many sessions drag on for hours because DM added more monsters and combat took all frigging night.

@Whisper:  What game do you play that does not suck?  You mention Champions but are there any others?  I also have to agree that D&D does have its issues but it is one of the longest running game systems around.  I can only think of Shadowrun, RIFTS, White Wolf, and maybe any variation of Star Wars® that have lasted as long.  Each of these systems has issues as well.  Now if you wish high detail go play Phoenix Command where everything down to wind speed effects what you can do.

[Kajhera]

Okay, the other thread is really the wrong place for it so how do you mean that tier 3 can't IP proof?

They seem to me to be much better at approaching it than tier 4. My tier 4 character, who suffered circumstances like being Dominated, took a level of Warblade to boost her will saves as quickly as possible - and it worked and helped her not get screwed in quite as many ways. Being able to leap away as a swift action didn't hurt either... (I don't think I even realized I could take higher-level maneuvers.)

Perhaps they are worse at it than higher tiers, but I have found great use for tier 3 defensive measures, personally, and they do seem to reduce my rate of death significantly, so ... why would that not count as IP proofing?

[Littha]

The previusly mentioned Maug Paladin 2 only has its race going for it really and is solid enough.

[Bloody Initiate]

Perhaps they are worse at it than higher tiers, but I have found great use for tier 3 defensive measures, personally, and they do seem to reduce my rate of death significantly, so ... why would that not count as IP proofing?

Actually they're better than higher tiers at making saves, although higher tiers are better at not having to make the saves I think (So a Tier 1 can grab immunity to all the crap that a Tier 3 has to roll save against).

The thing is, and this is frequently both the best and worst thing about ToB, the book was written with multi-classing and assimilation in mind. They did a really good job with it, and as a result most of the tricks that the classes in ToB can be easily taken by higher-tier classes as well.

Replacing a save with a Concentration check is as easy for a wizard as it is for a warblade. Which means that most of the defenses of the ToB classes can be freely stolen by more powerful but less well-written material (Most powerful =/= well made).

Like I said, it's the best and worst thing about the book. Other new-system books (Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, etc.) don't fit nearly as well with the rest of the published material, and some of them even received a tiny bit of support (Which the ToB definitely did not). That's not to say there aren't good things in those books (I like both MoI and ToM a lot, can't think of others), but just that they weren't as well designed to fuse with previously-existing material.

[Kajhera]

Perhaps they are worse at it than higher tiers, but I have found great use for tier 3 defensive measures, personally, and they do seem to reduce my rate of death significantly, so ... why would that not count as IP proofing?

Actually they're better than higher tiers at making saves, although higher tiers are better at not having to make the saves I think (So a Tier 1 can grab immunity to all the crap that a Tier 3 has to roll save against).

The thing is, and this is frequently both the best and worst thing about ToB, the book was written with multi-classing and assimilation in mind. They did a really good job with it, and as a result most of the tricks that the classes in ToB can be easily taken by higher-tier classes as well.

Replacing a save with a Concentration check is as easy for a wizard as it is for a warblade. Which means that most of the defenses of the ToB classes can be freely stolen by more powerful but less well-written material (Most powerful =/= well made).

Like I said, it's the best and worst thing about the book. Other new-system books (Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, etc.) don't fit nearly as well with the rest of the published material, and some of them even received a tiny bit of support (Which the ToB definitely did not). That's not to say there aren't good things in those books (I like both MoI and ToM a lot, can't think of others), but just that they weren't as well designed to fuse with previously-existing material.

That's great at explaining why higher tiers do it better, but not so much why lower tiers can't do it. 

[Whisper]

@Whisper:  What game do you play that does not suck?  You mention Champions but are there any others?

Truth is, until recently, I hadn't gamed in about 15 years. The game I'm currently participating in is 3.5 D&D... not my choice. I'm there to spend time with the old friend who's running it, some of the other players who are pleasant company, and because I had forgotten how much I enjoy RPGs in general.

Way back when, I played Champions, GURPS, Fantasy HERO, mostly. None of which are perfect, but all of which are orders of magnitude less broken than D&D. Or, they were back then. Possibly the latest editions are better or worse. I don't know.

I also have to agree that D&D does have its issues but it is one of the longest running game systems around.  I can only think of Shadowrun, RIFTS, White Wolf, and maybe any variation of Star Wars® that have lasted as long.  Each of these systems has issues as well.

Why would longevity be a point in a game's favour? Either it's good or it isn't. This seems a bit irrelevant.

  Now if you wish high detail go play Phoenix Command where everything down to wind speed effects what you can do.

Didn't ask for more detail. Asked for less broken.

[Littha]

Didn't ask for more detail. Asked for less broken.

Play 4e then.

[Sunic_Flames]

Okay, the other thread is really the wrong place for it so how do you mean that tier 3 can't IP proof?

They seem to me to be much better at approaching it than tier 4. My tier 4 character, who suffered circumstances like being Dominated, took a level of Warblade to boost her will saves as quickly as possible - and it worked and helped her not get screwed in quite as many ways. Being able to leap away as a swift action didn't hurt either... (I don't think I even realized I could take higher-level maneuvers.)

Perhaps they are worse at it than higher tiers, but I have found great use for tier 3 defensive measures, personally, and they do seem to reduce my rate of death significantly, so ... why would that not count as IP proofing?

Exactly as I said. They can't. They lack the actual abilities to do that.

Let's look at the common ones.

Greater/Superior Resistance: Resistance bonus to saves. While not unique, it does save money, or save money and give you a better bonus than money can buy. 1s and 2s can cast it easily. The only 3 that gets it is the Bard, and they get it 5 or 6 levels after everyone else does, which means you're long dead by then.

Conviction and its Mass version: Morale bonus to saves. A very uncommon bonus, particularly since the only other way to get morale bonuses to saves both sucks a barrel of cocks, and belongs to one of the most frequently banned schools of magic. It also grants a lesser bonus and is single target in any case. 1s and 2s only.

Recitation: Luck bonus to saves. Tier 1s and 2s only. Also requires DMM to be usable, so make that just 1s.

GMW: Used both so that beatsticks get the to hit and damage from it without taking the massive DPS hit that comes from not taking weapon special properties, and so that everyone gets +5 touch AC and +5 to all saves, both untyped or some obscure bonus type via +1 Defending armor spikes and +1 Spellstrike Animated shield spikes. You guessed it, 1s and 2s only.

Magic Vestment: Not for AC, you'll get auto hit anyways. For touch AC, when combined with Ghost Ward. But lol, 1s and 2s only.

End result? Without at least 1 tier 1-2 in the party, everyone is down +14 all saves and +15 touch AC. That's a lot of IP proofing you miss out on. In fact you go from actually diminishing rocket tag a fair bit to going down the moment an enemy so much as looks at you. And no, things like "maneuver to make a Concentration check instead of a save" don't help, both because anyone can do that for 3k, and because you'll still be worse off even when you have those. And when you don't, say because you have to make a second save? Well, you're fucked.

And then there's outright immunity, things that are restricted or completely unavailable to the lower tiers, but 1s and 2s can access freely.

If the tier list were written sensibly and objectively, as opposed to based on what JaronK would allow in his own games then those classes would be on top mostly because they're the only ones with decent defenses. Everything else however would shift around a bit.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

So IP means that you shouldn't play the game in the first place, because you will die sooner or later and therefore "lose"? O_o

Yeah... I don't buy that. I mean I anderstand the concept and it's all most probably right, but... ehh... For me, if I have fun playing the game then I "win", no matter how many times my PC died or how many time have I rolled new ones.
for me DnD is like sex - Yeah, you can use a condom for protection, but where's the fun and excitment?

[Bloody Initiate]

So IP means that you shouldn't play the game in the first place, because you will die sooner or later and therefore "lose"? O_o

Yeah... I don't buy that. I mean I anderstand the concept and it's all most probably right, but... ehh... For me, if I have fun playing the game then I "win", no matter how many times my PC died or how many time have I rolled new ones.
for me DnD is like sex - Yeah, you can use a condom for protection, but where's the fun and excitment?

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

I know what you mean about just playing because it's fun, I play with friends so enjoy their company. However I spent most of this evening's session unconscious, which was a lot less fun than spending it killing things.

[Littha]

I actually rather like rolling up characters... I have hundreds i wrote just for the fun of it...

[Bloody Initiate]

I actually rather like rolling up characters... I have hundreds i wrote just for the fun of it...

I used to enjoy it just for the fun of doing it, but when I sincerely doubt I'll ever get to see most of them play it depresses me. It's the same feeling you get from homebrewing, it feels good creating it and ironing it out but then you realize no one will ever use it specifically because it's homebrew.

[veekie]

Well, few encounters will take out the whole party unless it's a boss fight every fight every day. So the trick is not to lose enough that the whole party goes down with you when you do fail(which you will) and not to lose in a way you can't bounce back from quickly.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Common encounters - no major IP proofing needed.
Boss fights - my team is my IP proofing.