IP proofing and "You got CAPed" or - common CO terms, now with catchy names!

[Littha]

All in all what Sunic i writing is kinda true, from the statistical/mathematical point.

But DnD isn't an cRPG. There's more then raw numbers. You will call it "coddling" by the GM or failing at optimization, but for me overcoming a challenge despite my weaknessesis the greatest fun ever.

And yes, there is a need for a competent GM for it to work.

You aren't quite grasping the concept I feel. Overcoming a challenge despite weakness is fine, thing is what happens when you have to face 250 or so of them in your adventuring career? If there is a 1% chance you die each encounter you will be dead.

It really IS coddling by the DM if you don't, I'm not just calling it that.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I grasp the concept. And it's true from the mathematical point.

But there's more than just numbers, like I already said. The PCs have brains, they can figure out ways to negate enemies strong tactics, AND they can negate their own weakness.
It's called THINKING.
Of course IP proofing is more effective and practical, but it's not the only way.

[Kajhera]

I daresay the two are not mutually exclusive or even entirely different.

[Gods_Trick]

I grasp the concept. And it's true from the mathematical point.

But there's more than just numbers, like I already said. The PCs have brains, they can figure out ways to negate enemies strong tactics, AND they can negate their own weakness.
It's called THINKING.
Of course IP proofing is more effective and practical, but it's not the only way.

How do you think your way out of a save or die effect? Its binary. Get hit with Blashepmy, live or die. Thats it, no quick thinking RAW options.

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

[Littha]

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

Actually I would have thought these would be examples of successful saves.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Its not the way the game is played.

It's not?

[Gods_Trick]

Its not the way the game is played.

It's not?

Not generally, no. Alas. I await a game that'll actually let me do that in game, cause it sounds way more fun than, "roll, you save/ roll, oh too bad, your characters dead".

Now you can add that as fluff, but thats what it is, fluff; short of GM fiat (and we frown on that here), doesn't mechanically give you any advantage.

I must also add, Fireball and Charm aren't save or dies, but they are the examples in the books because real SoDs are so lethal the heroes have to save everytime, and a spell that doesn't seem to do anything just doesn't make for good drama.

[oslecamo]

But DnD isn't an cRPG. There's more then raw numbers. You will call it "coddling" by the GM or failing at optimization, but for me overcoming a challenge despite my weaknessesis the greatest fun ever.

While character should not be invincible, I think we can all agree that there should be some baseline minimum for competence that is above a dex based Fighter/Duelist who took Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense.

That would be up for the group to decide. After all, the game is as hard as the DM wants it to be. If he's out to kill the characters, no amount of shenigans or optimization will save them.

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

On the contrary, it's precisely the way the game it's suposed to be played, and how my groups have always played it. They're called circumstance bonus. The DM is suposed to reward players for imaginative and out of the box thinking, and to improvise for stuff the rules don't cover.

Again that's what makes D&D diferent from an hardcoded cRPG. You can try to get allies and choose the territorry where you fight to get odds on your side.  You can get in your knees and beg for your life if things are really going bad. Your enemies aren't just faceless mooks programmed to kill you or die trying, and the campaign world isn't a bunch of scripted events waiting for you to do the key actions to trigger them.

Now you may call it DM fiat and frown upon it, but don't pretend players out there don't do it, and don't have fun doing so.

[Gods_Trick]

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

On the contrary, it's precisely the way the game it's suposed to be played, and how my groups have always played it. They're called circumstance bonus. The DM is suposed to reward players for imaginative and out of the box thinking, and to improvise for stuff the rules don't cover.

Again that's what makes D&D diferent from an hardcoded cRPG. You can try to get allies and choose the territorry where you fight to get odds on your side.  You can get in your knees and beg for your life if things are really going bad. Your enemies aren't just faceless mooks programmed to kill you or die trying, and the campaign world isn't a bunch of scripted events waiting for you to do the key actions to trigger them.

Now you may call it DM fiat and frown upon it, but don't pretend players out there don't do it, and don't have fun doing so.

Oh you totally can. And in RL games I try it. But echoing what I said earlier somewhere, that depends on the group, and on the GM. And since GM fiat is not a quantifiable commodity, CO advice and game theory should not be predicated on it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

But DnD isn't an cRPG. There's more then raw numbers. You will call it "coddling" by the GM or failing at optimization, but for me overcoming a challenge despite my weaknessesis the greatest fun ever.

While character should not be invincible, I think we can all agree that there should be some baseline minimum for competence that is above a dex based Fighter/Duelist who took Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two Weapon Defense.

That would be up for the group to decide. After all, the game is as hard as the DM wants it to be. If he's out to kill the characters, no amount of shenigans or optimization will save them.

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

On the contrary, it's precisely the way the game it's suposed to be played, and how my groups have always played it. They're called circumstance bonus. The DM is suposed to reward players for imaginative and out of the box thinking, and to improvise for stuff the rules don't cover.

Again that's what makes D&D diferent from an hardcoded cRPG. You can try to get allies and choose the territorry where you fight to get odds on your side.  You can get in your knees and beg for your life if things are really going bad. Your enemies aren't just faceless mooks programmed to kill you or die trying, and the campaign world isn't a bunch of scripted events waiting for you to do the key actions to trigger them.

Now you may call it DM fiat and frown upon it, but don't pretend players out there don't do it, and don't have fun doing so.

+1




... No, make that +2. I'm feeling generous today.

[veekie]

Still wouldn't do much against a nat 1 on a save or die though. The thing with some attacks is you just need ONE roll to kill you.

[oslecamo]

Still wouldn't do much against a nat 1 on a save or die though. The thing with some attacks is you just need ONE roll to kill you.

Well, that's why you work as a group. As long as one of you survives to revivify/carry your dead bodies to a safe place, the show can go on!

One party member dying won't stop the history. Only the whole party dying will. Because cheap ressurection is cheap, and the experience tables will speed up your recovery.

1% chance of failing will kill you in each hundred combats, but 1% chance per player for four players means you only all die every 100 000 000 ecounters. And then you can share awesome stories about your most heroic/silly deaths.

[Littha]

Things like blasphemy can kill the whole party at once... or implosion.


Also at higher levels there are worse things than death.  Imprisonment for one.

[lans]

I grasp the concept. And it's true from the mathematical point.

But there's more than just numbers, like I already said. The PCs have brains, they can figure out ways to negate enemies strong tactics, AND they can negate their own weakness.
It's called THINKING.
Of course IP proofing is more effective and practical, but it's not the only way.

How do you think your way out of a save or die effect? Its binary. Get hit with Blashepmy, live or die. Thats it, no quick thinking RAW options.

All the clever tricks characters in the books pull, like hiding behind rubble to avoid the fireball, or hurting themselves to resist a charm; isn't in the rules. Its not the way the game is played.

Rubble is cover or full cover, which gives a save bonus and evasion IIRC.
Blashemy Silence, standing apart from each other, though those would be IP Proofing.

[oslecamo]

Things like blasphemy can kill the whole party at once... or implosion.

If the DM is throwing blasphemy+caster level boosters at you, then that falls under "he wants to kill you and no matter how much you optimize you're gonna die anyway". In particular because it's non-random.

Implosion won't kill all the party at once, giving time for either the party win or the last man standing to decide to leg it.

Also at higher levels there are worse things than death.  Imprisonment for one.

That's really the worst that you can think off? Imprisonment is easily solved.

Also it isn't really higher level. It's highest level. If the party lasted that far, they surely learned something during the way.

[Littha]

Blashemy Silence, standing apart from each other, though those would be IP Proofing.

Blasphemy will still hit you even if you cant hear it. Sure it might stop someone from casting it in the first place but when you get to things like Balors or high HD half fiends you have issues.

[SeekingKnight]

Well, that's why you work as a group. As long as one of you survives to revivify/carry your dead bodies to a safe place, the show can go on!

One party member dying won't stop the history. Only the whole party dying will. Because cheap ressurection is cheap, and the experience tables will speed up your recovery.

1% chance of failing will kill you in each hundred combats, but 1% chance per player for four players means you only all die every 100 000 000 ecounters. And then you can share awesome stories about your most heroic/silly deaths.

Thing is yes working as a group works but say that one person who survived is the rogue who dumped strength for dexterity, intelligence and charisma.  I doubt said rogue will carry three corpses back, some in full armor.  Same for a wizard who typically dumps strength.  If it is the cleric or someone who can heal then sure but luck may not always be on your side.  IP proofing is lowering that luck chance of a negative thing happening to the group.  Also, maybe it is me, but I would rather not remember when my character died and had to get rezzed.  I would rather remember when my character did something awesome and it was not by a lucky die roll.

[lans]

Blashemy Silence, standing apart from each other, though those would be IP Proofing.

Blasphemy will still hit you even if you cant hear it. Sure it might stop someone from casting it in the first place but when you get to things like Balors or high HD half fiends you have issues.

Actually,

This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.

, so maybe?

[Littha]

Always thought it was covered by:

This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy

[skydragonknight]

Depends. "no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area." could mean that sonic effects cannot enter the area of Silence just like area spells cannot enter AMFs. The "cannot hear" could just refer to deafness or stopping one's ears.