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Author Topic: Is the role of Stealthy Dude a viable role in a party of non-stealthers?  (Read 23714 times)
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Dictum Mortuum
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always female suspects

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« Reply #380 on: February 09, 2011, 06:27:56 PM »

This is how people pass time on the internet.

If only people could be content with watching porn...

How many times can you watch that DP video with the Pamela Anderson/Britney Spears/Lindsay Lohan lookalike without getting bored, anyways?
Less than one.

WAY less than one.

Yeah right.  $10 says you have 2girls/1cup on your harddrive.
$1000 bucks says I'm gay and you're dead wrong.

ahhahahahahahahahahahahhahha
OWNED HAAHHHA BEST POST EVER
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Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.

Agita
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SFT is mai waifu.

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« Reply #381 on: February 09, 2011, 06:31:39 PM »

This is how people pass time on the internet.

If only people could be content with watching porn...

How many times can you watch that DP video with the Pamela Anderson/Britney Spears/Lindsay Lohan lookalike without getting bored, anyways?
Less than one.

WAY less than one.

Yeah right.  $10 says you have 2girls/1cup on your harddrive.
$1000 bucks says I'm gay and you're dead wrong.
Sorry, I'm afraid my money is with Lycan here.
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It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Sunic_Flames
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« Reply #382 on: February 09, 2011, 07:09:10 PM »

Should I assume that you mean that any melee type character less than a Feral Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Incarnate Warforged Warblade to be a gimp? I'm just asking.

Quote
But I'm talking about the lower tier casters. Tier 3 is precisely what I'm talking about. What can a Dread Necromancer and a Beguiler do to reliably bust through SR 25 AND maintain save DCs of 25+?

We've established what Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters do that makes scouting both irrelevant and undesirable. They have powerful divinations they use to better effect and with less party danger. So, if we're talking about scouting then we're talking about a Tier 3 game at best. I essentially don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to optimizing, but Sunic, you do, or at least you claim to. So, arriving at what exactly an optimized Tier 3 character is capable of, even should be capable of in your opinion, can only help us further a legitimate discussion.

Watch that Paizil Fallacy. And you're missing the point. The point is +20 to hit is low, and something you should have had at 7 or 8, and that's if you attack via touch attack. Similarly, 12 Con is low. For anyone. 14+ just to show up.

Quote
I'm reposting this one just for fairness.

Monks have a bunch of features too. Interestingly enough, none of them are useful. So yes, it's just like the Monks are good crowd. Both them and the scouts are good crowd regularly assume heavily nerfed and stupid opposition, both assume you accomplish something useful other than death (which IS useful, to the party you are holding back but not what I meant)... the parallels go on.

Quote
Also, @Amadi: Yes, if you fail 30% of tasks, some of which involve life-threatening situations, you are some day going to get killed. The game assumes that this is going to happen and thus includes Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection, among many other ways to return the dead to life. You appear to be coming dangerous close to saying something along the lines of, "any character not IP proofed enough to have 99.999% success in his chosen roles is a gimp and his player doesn't know how to play the game." Am I mistaken or is that what you are indeed saying?

Uh huh. And a 30% fail rate means you literally drop dead every other fight. Maybe every third fight. Wonder how long it will take to run out of levels and loot, or just make the Cleric say screw this, we keep the rest of his stuff and get a not gimp.

Don't be an idiot.

Quick question: Has Sunic's game been linked in this thread?

It's been referenced in enough detail to have a full grasp on the situation without a link.

I have the weirdest desire right now. Sunic, if there's a spot in any by post games you DM, consider me interested.

Lol. Not right now. And I rarely start games. You can join the waiting list though. Yes, there is a waiting list. Despite the whining and flailing.

Oh and if you want to get mad at someone about "You must be this tall to play", take that up with the game designers. They make the rules, I just quote them. D&D is absolutely full of gear checks, and ability checks, and competence checks. Fuck, the whole WBL system is the means of organizing gear checks. Not to mention how the higher you go, the more stuff is big, and flying, and can wtfpwn you. Often all at once.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
Dictum Mortuum
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« Reply #383 on: February 09, 2011, 07:15:11 PM »

I have the weirdest desire right now. Sunic, if there's a spot in any by post games you DM, consider me interested.

Lol. Not right now. And I rarely start games. You can join the waiting list though. Yes, there is a waiting list. Despite the whining and flailing.

Oh and if you want to get mad at someone about "You must be this tall to play", take that up with the game designers. They make the rules, I just quote them. D&D is absolutely full of gear checks, and ability checks, and competence checks. Fuck, the whole WBL system is the means of organizing gear checks. Not to mention how the higher you go, the more stuff is big, and flying, and can wtfpwn you. Often all at once.

Just pm me when/if it happens.

Also I don't know if the other comment is directed at me, because of the quoting thingy. If yes then 'wtf' .
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JaronK
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« Reply #384 on: February 09, 2011, 07:15:39 PM »

I'll just put this simply: I've played scouts before.  I've never had problems.  In fact, I've never had a character die while scouting, not once, but I have made a lot of encounters far easier with decent scouting.  I've seen one scout character die to a trap, but that was level 2 in World's Largest Dungeon and that trap would have killed anyone else in the party except the Crusader had she not taken that hit, so that's hardly an argument against scouting.  So, maybe others can't do it, but I can, and have, and this whole argument has boiled down to a bunch of people saying "I can't do it, therefor it's impossible."  So instead of going back and forth on specific scenarios from a DM who clearly has no experience with this, I'll just post how to scout, because that's actually useful.  Here's the main things you need to keep in mind, and I'll phrase them for all kinds of games (high optimization and low).

1)  Be invisible to as many things as possible.  

A)  The most basic part of this is Hide and Move Silently, because everything has Spot and Listen, even if they have no ranks.  As a rule, you're only truly safe if your Hide and Move Silently, after modifiers, are 11 higher than the enemy's Spot and Listen.  That way, if you take 10 while sneaking around the enemy cannot possibly find you.  This is trivially easy... a Halfling straight out of the box gets +5 Hide, and +3 Move Silently, while a Whispergnome gets +9 Hide and +5 Move Silently.  Through in max ranks in both skills and a 14 base thrown into dex and you're looking at +11/+9 or +15/+11 even at level 1, when the vast majority of enemies don't even have spot ranks.  Note also that distracted people have a -5 to their spot and listen, and there's an additional -1 to spot and listen for every 10 feet between the observer and what they're spotting.  With these kinds of penalties, you don't even need items to avoid any chance of detection.  As you go up in levels you'll want to invest a bit of money into keeping Hide and Move Silently up, an amount determined by how much it comes up.  The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (22k continuous, 10k for 10 minutes per day) is great for this, providing the Dark template cheap (which gives +8 hide, +6 move silently, Darkvision and Superior Low Light Vision, and (Ex) hide in plain sight along with a few other nice abilities).  Shadowsilk Leather Armor is just 1,750gp and provides +2 to hide and move silently while also being extremely light weight (an issue for low strength stealth types), and it's not even magical so crafting it for 1/3 price is a possibility in games where that works.  There's also basic mundane gear like Silent Shoes and Darkweave Clothing that can increase both skills.  And if you're a Factotum, you even get to add your Int to it.  In the end, you should have little to no trouble keeping your Hide and Move Silently up so high that nothing can possibly detect you via Spot or Listen.

B)  Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Blindsight are all relatively common abilities that autodetect you, and you just can't have that.  Luckily, these are easily countered by taking the Darkstalker feat, which requires them to follow the Spot-Hide/Listen-Move Silently mechanic.  Since you needed those to be up anyway, this handles the problem nicely, but the feat is basically required if you want to be a stealthy character.  Without it, you're hosed... which is part of why Wizards and such actually aren't very good at this sort of thing.  No spell protects you from these things (at least not in a useful way).

C)  Lifesense.  This feat from Libris Mortis is only available to undead and causes all living creatures to glow brightly in your vision (a medium or smaller creature gives off 60 feet of light, while larger creatures double the light given off for every size category they are above medium).  Note that even invisible light sources give off light, so this sense completely trumps invisibility and no amount of hiding will save you (the enemy won't see you, but they'll know exactly where you are anyway.  They'll even see you coming from around corners).  On the bright side (heh) Necropolitans are found in this same book.  Basically, if Libris Mortis is in play, you absolutely want to be a Necropolitan (which is very useful for stealthers anyway for a variety of reasons).  If it's not in play, Lifesense isn't an issue anyway so there's nothing to worry about.  And if you do become a Necropolitan, take this feat!

D)  Touchsight.  This auto-win detection can be annoying, but with a minute per level duration, it shouldn't even be up unless the party has already given away the fact that it's there (which may happen).  Nothing besides being incorporeal can evade it (and being permanently incorporeal has its own issues), but it has some weaknesses.  First of all, it requires Line of Effect to see things.  If you have the ability to see through walls (Mindsight, Earthdreamer) you can watch someone who might have Touchsight up without fear, and remember the following from the Line of Effect rules:  "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. "  In other words, if you're peering at the target through a keyhole or grating or any other surface that doesn't have a full 1 square foot hole in it, Touchsight can't see you at all.  Also, note that it has a 60 foot radius, though this can be enhanced.  We'll get more into proper scouting distance later.  Finally, it's a rare power available only to Psions and Wilders, so it shouldn't come up much at all.

E)  Mindsight.  This is a feat from Lords of Madness that autodetects anything with a mind within the range of your telepathy (for most creatures, this will be 100 feet or less).  First of all, check with your DM to see what this power actually does.  By RAW, it autodetects everything with no chance of blocking it... if this is so, TAKE THIS FEAT.  However, the same book that published it mentions that Illithids hate undead, and one of the reasons is that their mental detection abilities don't work on undead.  This suggests that RAI was for Mindsight not to work on people who are immune to Mind Affecting, in which case you'll want to be Necropolitan even more (or at least get some other method of getting that immunity).  But if it's played by RAW, this is a good reason to stay 100 feet away from enemies that might have the feat.  Note that this is another rare ability... it requires the enemy to be telepathic and have taken the feat.  This is one good reason why having a few Knowledge skills is wise, as it lets you know about such abilities.  

F)  Darkvision.  This is a really common sense that still works off spot/hide, so you can hide from it just fine.  It's mentioned here because the Ring of Darkhidden makes you completely invisible to it, and most underground/night monsters that use it rely on it as their sole vision mode when it's dark.  With that ring, which is quite cheap, you're now completely invisible to them the whole time.  If you play in the underdark or some similar area, your whole party should have such rings.  An important note is the range here... Darkvision is usually a 60' range, sometimes 120', very rarely anything past this.  You want to scout so that your party doesn't come within 120' of areas you haven't scouted, so that they're not picked up by this visual mode.

G)  Magical detection.  There's a bunch of abilities (Arcane Sight, Detect Magic, Detect Undead, etc) that use magic to spot unusual things.  Theoretically, they should still require spot, but just in case note that almost all magical senses are blocked by a thin layer of lead.  Yes, you can actually hide behind a lead sheet or lead-lined cloak (though note that weight could make this impractical).  The obvious permanent one people could use is Arcane Sight, but the range on that ability is 120' and it makes their eyes glow blue, so if you see someone with blue glowing eyes, stay out of the 120' range (and note that they're likely a caster).  Like Touchsight, these senses aren't that common, but you should consider their existence.  

2)  Have better detection than your enemies.

A)  Spot and Listen are handy ways to find things... they're automatic, after all.  But as we saw earlier, using Spot and Listen are at a serious disadvantage against Hide and Move Silently.  Distraction carries a -5 penalty, and distance gives a -1 per 10 feet penalty.  Considering most scouts want to stay pretty far from the enemy, Spot and Listen end up being pretty poor ways of locating people.  Also, Invisibility screws Spot pretty good and Silence screws Listen.  As such, while it's a good idea to have a decent Spot score, it may not be worthwhile to waste too many points and resources maxing both these skills out (though that will depend on where else you spend your skill points and what exactly your character intends to do).  As before, having night vision abilities (Low Light, Darkvision) are nice, but don't rely on them.

B)  Scent, Blindsight, Blindsense, Tremorsense.  These are obviously useful abilities to have, as they autodetect enemies who don't have Darkstalker (few will).  Blindsight is easily gotten via the Blindfold of True Darkness, but doing that means you can't see anything past 30' (but non visual senses like Mindsight work fine).  If you're using Lifesense, this is obviously a terrible idea, but in general getting a Blindfold that you can put on temporarily at times might be worth having.  Scent is easiest gotten via Hunter's Stance.  But again, the range is quite short, so neither of these abilities are all that great.  It's pretty hard to get any of these senses with any decent range.  Heck, if anything, it's almost better to have an attack animal with the party that has these (like bats or dogs or whatever) and leave them back there in case the party is about to get jumped by an invisible thing you somehow missed, while you go ahead and do the scouting thing.  These aren't high priority senses.

C)  Lifesense.  As above, this sense is AMAZING for spotting things.  It works on anything that's alive (take that, Mimic) and lets you know about them long before you even get close.  If it's available, be a Necropolitan and take it, no question.

D)  Mindsight.  As above, this is another amazing sense.  If it's available and you can do so, take it.  It's easy for Beguilers, Arcane Tricksters, and Factotums to get via a Mindbender dip.  Rogues, Scouts, and Ninjas are left out in the cold on this one (part of why they're really not that good at scouting).  Make sure to check with your DM so you know what it can pick up... by RAW, this thing works through walls (unlike divination, it goes through lead too).

E)  Magic.  For the most part, magical detection isn't very good.  Abilities like Mindblank trump it wholesale, while a sheet of lead or bit of rock stops it cold, and there are even abilities that make magical detection give the wrong answer.  Plus, the durations are generally low.  If you can get something like Permanent Arcane Sight or Persistent Detect Undead or whatever then go for it, but as a rule you want abilities that warn you if something's there when you didn't realize it, not abilities you have to cast once you already suspect an enemy.

3)  Be at the right range.   Note how most of these abilities have specific ranges where they function, from 30' to 120' generally.  Make sure you're not walking into an autodetect ability that you can't counter, and definitely keep your party from walking into such a thing.  Also, your distance from your party is important.  You want to be far enough away that they don't get heard or spotted (remember, there's that -1 penalty per 10 feet, so if you can detect things while they're 200 feet away from the party then the party is fine), but not so far away that you're outside of your party's engagement range (which will depend on party composition and level... Beguilers have no trouble dropping Glitterdusts from 130' away and archers usually can fire at 200' away, but full attack melee types are often unable to effect anything usefully unless they're already adjacent, so plan accordingly).  After all, if you screw up, you don't want to be by yourself fighting something.  You also need to be able to communicate with the party (another good reason why having Telepathy is handy, though there are other methods), in case you get hit while they can't see you.  I generally find that being 95' away from the front of the party is just about right in most situations.  As a scout, if you're splitting the party, you're doing it wrong.

4)  Have ablative defenses.  Since you're in front, you're likely to take one big hit before the party kills whatever attacked you, so you want one off defenses that guarantee survival.  A ring of +1 natural armor is all fine and well for the tank, but you need stuff that guarantees survival right now from that one hit you're going to take from a trap or from a creature that somehow managed to spot you.  This is a reason why a dip into Swordsage is extremely useful for any scout... Moment of Perfect Mind (and similar maneuvers), Counter Charge, and Shadow Jaunt are amazing as once per encounter defenses.  They guarantee that one save or lose won't kill you (including traps), that one melee opponent won't reach you, and that you can escape (even from grapples) when you need to.  Shadow Jaunt with Cloak of Deception is already a great stealth combo anyway, so this works perfectly.  In the end, if you do it right, a monster jumping you is actually falling for bait and guaranteed to be dead as the entire party destroys it, and you're the best person to trigger a trap anyway (though try to avoid said traps, the published ones are incredibly deadly at low levels).

5)  Don't spend everything on scouting.  You should still be able to do other stuff.  Most scouts are actually assassins or diplomats or combat archers or something that's very helpful even when not scouting.  There's no requirement to spend huge resources on being a scout... you should still be very effective for the party in general.

And in the end of all this, what's the point of scouting?  This is a game where actions are everything, and a single standard action can screw your entire party.  If a fight starts with a hidden Beguiler casting Glitterdust on the party in the surprise round, you could be looking at a TPK.  If it instead starts with your party landing the Glitterdust and revealing the Beguiler as well as his little Rogue friends, this is going to be a trivially easy fight.  Plus, in a game full of monsters with various immunities and vulnerabilities, strengths and weaknesses, knowing your enemy in advance and knowing how to fight him is critical.  Far better to avoid wasting attacks that do nothing against a creature that was immune, or to use AoEs and hit the hidden ambushers instead of single target effects that only hit the bait.  Thus, what the scout gives the party is actions, and lots of them.  Surprise rounds to destroy enemies instead of having those same surprise rounds used against you, and fewer wasted actions when a player fails to account for what's actually against him.  And in a game where battles are effectively over after the first round or so (which is often the case when save or lose and crowd control spells start dropping), that's critical.  

JaronK
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SeekingKnight
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« Reply #385 on: February 09, 2011, 08:01:06 PM »

Thank you Jaron and Sunic.  Again I am sorry for my eariler blow up.  I have seen a game where the halfling with maxed hide is a pain in the butt and the DM had to use things with tremorsense to fight him.  I see it from both sides of the debate.  Sunic is correct as magic in D&D can trump a lot of mundane things and if you are the best (read Tier 1) then by golly you will shine.  I also see Jaron's point on the player who knows what they are doing can make a fine scout type character.  So while yes the system as a whole has issues everyone plays the game their own way.  As an internet personality said "If the person playing the game differently from you is not effecting the way you play then why worry about it."

Ciao
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BeholderSlayer
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« Reply #386 on: February 09, 2011, 08:09:17 PM »

Also I don't know if the other comment is directed at me, because of the quoting thingy. If yes then 'wtf' .
It wasn't. It took a while for me to get used to Sunic's random topic changes when writing, too.
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« Reply #387 on: February 09, 2011, 08:20:56 PM »

JaronK, you should either develop that post into a handbook, or at the least make it its own thread and submit it to the Handy Links.  Clap
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #388 on: February 09, 2011, 08:46:07 PM »

Should I assume that you mean that any melee type character less than a Feral Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Incarnate Warforged Warblade to be a gimp? I'm just asking.

Quote
But I'm talking about the lower tier casters. Tier 3 is precisely what I'm talking about. What can a Dread Necromancer and a Beguiler do to reliably bust through SR 25 AND maintain save DCs of 25+?

Quote
We've established what Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters do that makes scouting both irrelevant and undesirable. They have powerful divinations they use to better effect and with less party danger. So, if we're talking about scouting then we're talking about a Tier 3 game at best. I essentially don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to optimizing, but Sunic, you do, or at least you claim to. So, arriving at what exactly an optimized Tier 3 character is capable of, even should be capable of in your opinion, can only help us further a legitimate discussion.

Quote
Watch that Paizil Fallacy.

I don't know what that means.

Quote
And you're missing the point. The point is +20 to hit is low, and something you should have had at 7 or 8, and that's if you attack via touch attack. Similarly, 12 Con is low. For anyone. 14+ just to show up.

And yet you still refuse to actually illustrate how the Warblade is supposed to get a +20 to hit touch attack at 7th level. If it's possible I want to know how.

Quote
Monks have a bunch of features too. Interestingly enough, none of them are useful. So yes, it's just like the Monks are good crowd. Both them and the scouts are good crowd regularly assume heavily nerfed and stupid opposition, both assume you accomplish something useful other than death (which IS useful, to the party you are holding back but not what I meant)... the parallels go on.

I'm trying to bring us back to more of a baseline conversation without those kinds of preconceptions, like heavily nerfed and stupid opposition and seeing where we go from there. So, while I agree that Monks have no useful class features, I want to know why you seem to think stuff like Sneak Attack, Evasion, Cunning Insight, Arcane Dilettante, or Invocations aren't useful to anyone. Also UMD which all of them have and the Factotum and Warlock can take greater than average advantage of.

Quote from: BK
Also, @Amadi: Yes, if you fail 30% of tasks, some of which involve life-threatening situations, you are some day going to get killed. The game assumes that this is going to happen and thus includes Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection, among many other ways to return the dead to life. You appear to be coming dangerous close to saying something along the lines of, "any character not IP proofed enough to have 99.999% success in his chosen roles is a gimp and his player doesn't know how to play the game." Am I mistaken or is that what you are indeed saying?

Quote from: Sunic
Uh huh. And a 30% fail rate means you literally drop dead every other fight. Maybe every third fight. Wonder how long it will take to run out of levels and loot, or just make the Cleric say screw this, we keep the rest of his stuff and get a not gimp.

Don't be an idiot.

See, this is why you're having a problem convincing anyone of anything, Sunic. People don't play that way. It's either incredibly boring because the players spend more time calculating and eliminating the risks of things they do rather than actually doing them. OR it's an arms race between the players and team monster as they attempt to build more and more impenetrable defenses and more and more unstoppable offenses.

Instead, people would rather play Tier 3 games, with much less IP proofing, with some gentleman's agreements in place that however highly the players optimize, the DM will not go any higher. I know, I know, this is houseruling, I'm just saying that when you say things like, "scouts fail because they can't achieve a 99.9% success rate" most people aren't going to listen because most people don't want ANY character, even a Tier 1 character, to have that kind of a success rate.

Also, to avoid those kinds of discussions, and to put this argument into a format where more of us are on the same page is why I've been bringing up Tier 3. If you can drive the point home that scouts fail in a Tier 3 game, and without as much reliance on IP proofing to prove your point, then you're going to convince many more people. And you need to bring up actual stats, use actual game resources, and talk about actual game situations rather than handwave things. I'm trying to get you to treat this like a legitimate debate, because I think you've got something real to contribute to this discussion, and I think you might be able to convince me, but you've got to take it seriously.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 08:48:30 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
Ras F
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« Reply #389 on: February 09, 2011, 08:54:14 PM »

And yet you still refuse to actually illustrate how the Warblade is supposed to get a +20 to hit touch attack at 7th level. If it's possible I want to know how.

I believe this discussion is beyond the intentions of this particular thread. However, I am curious as to see a few different ways to accomplish this myself. May I recommend you begin another thread?
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #390 on: February 09, 2011, 08:58:06 PM »

And yet you still refuse to actually illustrate how the Warblade is supposed to get a +20 to hit touch attack at 7th level. If it's possible I want to know how.

I believe this discussion is beyond the intentions of this particular thread. However, I am curious as to see a few different ways to accomplish this myself. May I recommend you begin another thread?

Well, it's relevant to me to establish what Sunic believes is an acceptable Tier 3 contribution. It will help to put the Tier 3 scouting discussion into perspective.
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Sunic_Flames
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The Crusader of Logic.


« Reply #391 on: February 09, 2011, 09:48:19 PM »

I have the weirdest desire right now. Sunic, if there's a spot in any by post games you DM, consider me interested.

Lol. Not right now. And I rarely start games. You can join the waiting list though. Yes, there is a waiting list. Despite the whining and flailing.

Oh and if you want to get mad at someone about "You must be this tall to play", take that up with the game designers. They make the rules, I just quote them. D&D is absolutely full of gear checks, and ability checks, and competence checks. Fuck, the whole WBL system is the means of organizing gear checks. Not to mention how the higher you go, the more stuff is big, and flying, and can wtfpwn you. Often all at once.

Just pm me when/if it happens.

Also I don't know if the other comment is directed at me, because of the quoting thingy. If yes then 'wtf' .

I can't always be fucked to quote people, especially if the thing I am responding to is in the post immediately preceding my own.

As for Jaron, and his massive wall of text, his words might have some merit had he not honestly claimed, on many occasions that playing enemies remotely intelligently or competently is worth large CR boosts. Since he has, all he's proven is that he can beat other mouth breathing fuckwits.

And as for all this babbling about Tier 3, it is an irrelevant and invalid argument. If you are IP proofed, you don't die very often. If you are not, you die all the fucking time. It doesn't matter what sort of "gentleman's agreements" you think you have. If the DM nicely nerfs all the enemies by not having them use save or loses, they can still rape you just fine with their auto attacks, for example. The main difference as it pertains to that subject is Tier 3s can't IP proof very well, and flat out cannot use many IP proofing measures at all. Which in turn means a very high rate of character death. I will continue to regard you as not serious, and irrelevant and therefore disregard you as long as you continue to bring up the Tier 3 strawman, and other strawmen arguments such as throwing the 99.9% success rate at me, when I responded only to the bit about 30% fail rate.

This topic doesn't need any more fail smokescreens, least of all from other people.

And as long as you continue to throw out terrible numbers, like +20 to hit at level 10 I will continue to mock you for making fail builds, as even Tier 3s can, very easily obtain to hits in the 30s.
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Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
snakeman830
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« Reply #392 on: February 09, 2011, 09:58:10 PM »

Translation: Sunic has been proved to be ignorant in this area and is too proud to admit it.
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I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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« Reply #393 on: February 09, 2011, 10:01:18 PM »

Could someone show the guy a build that gets over +20 at level 10? For some reason I can't think of feats aside from Stormguard Warrior, I know they're out there though.
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Ras F
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« Reply #394 on: February 09, 2011, 10:13:48 PM »

20+ at level 7, resolved as touch attacks, I believe is the proposed 'bar' in question. I'm having trouble doing this 'easily' with standard WBL without requiring outside assistance from party members.
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« Reply #395 on: February 09, 2011, 10:19:20 PM »

... Can we dip a level in Cleric if we have 9 or less Wisdom, or is that cheating?
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #396 on: February 09, 2011, 10:21:41 PM »

Metamorphosis can give some pretty big numbers, and Unavoidable Strike can grant you touch attacks.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:28:59 PM by Lycanthromancer » Logged

Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
X-Codes
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« Reply #397 on: February 09, 2011, 10:23:54 PM »

Metamorphosis can give some pretty big numbers, and Psionic Fist can grant you touch attacks.
Isn't the latter a touch attack, singular?
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #398 on: February 09, 2011, 10:24:05 PM »

Quote from: BK
Also, @Amadi: Yes, if you fail 30% of tasks, some of which involve life-threatening situations, you are some day going to get killed. The game assumes that this is going to happen and thus includes Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection, among many other ways to return the dead to life. You appear to be coming dangerous close to saying something along the lines of, "any character not IP proofed enough to have 99.999% success in his chosen roles is a gimp and his player doesn't know how to play the game." Am I mistaken or is that what you are indeed saying?

Uh huh. And a 30% fail rate means you literally drop dead every other fight. Maybe every third fight. Wonder how long it will take to run out of levels and loot, or just make the Cleric say screw this, we keep the rest of his stuff and get a not gimp.

Don't be an idiot.

So, when you said "uh huh" you weren't agreeing with the bit about IP proofing for 99% success rates and anything else being incompetent and gimp? You weren't?

You also consistently refuse to debate the merits of scouting in the only environment where non-divination scouting is at all likely to be played? And you continuously claim that any Tier 3 can easily achieve +30 to hit at 10th level, but you adamantly refuse to produce any evidence to support your claim? Have I summed this up properly?

Finally, I did call you an asshole, but I didn't think it would offend you. Sorry if it did. But I've been trying to keep the discussion in perspective and relevant, but in the last several pages all you've bothered to do is ignore or dismiss me.

You see, we've discussed at length the uses of a Stealthy dude in an optimized environment where heavy IP proofing and powerful divinations are commonplace. You've successfully proven that in that environment the Stealthy dude in fact has no uses, or if he does, they are so minimal and risky as to be inadvisable to say the least.

Was I wrong about you having anything real to contribute to the discussion of a Stealthy dude in any environment other than the one just mentioned?

EDIT: Oh, shit, I'm at 2000 posts. Gotta celebrate by designing something!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:30:23 PM by bkdubs123 » Logged
Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #399 on: February 09, 2011, 10:30:12 PM »

Metamorphosis can give some pretty big numbers, and Unavoidable Strike can grant you touch attacks.
Isn't the latter a touch attack, singular?
Sorry, it was Unavoidable Strike I meant.

And yes, it's one per psionic focus.

However, using hammer and a form with a ton of natural attacks can give you a lot of touch attacks if you want it.
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Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 Big Grin
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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