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DavidWL
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« on: January 28, 2011, 06:36:26 PM » |
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What should be the standard book/rule set? Example: If I post and say, "I was thinking of a lockdown, Dex-based gish ... any advice", what books are assumed legal? Further, let's hypothosize that it is just a build for gitts and shiggles. (Because if it were an actual campaign, we'd get more specific advice). Currently: I tend to think, all the "standard" WotC 3.5 material, as well as un-updated 3.0. However, for this Board, what about quasi-official stuff: Kingdoms of Kalamar, Dragonlance, etc. Also, there are some house rules which are pretty darned awesome, and psuedo-official (or should be!) on the boards: - PlzBreakMyCampaign's Dirty Handbook Fixes - Hyperconsciousness - Tomes by Frank & K "True" 3rd party still off limits (AEG, Mongoose, etc.) I'm thinking of 2 sets of baselines: High-Powered- 3 custom sources above (Hyperconsciousness, Dirty Handbook Fixes, Tomes)
- All setting specific including Kingdoms of Kalamar & Dragonlance
- Dragon Mag.
- bloodlines & LA Buyoff & flaws & variant classes/races
- un-updated 3.0
Mid-Powered- 3.5 WotC only (web articles included)
- no flaws, no bloodlines, no LA Buyoff.
- (Variant classes/races ok)
Thoughts? Other stuff that should be included or excluded? Just so that I'm on the same proverbial page as everyone else ... Best, David
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Some Cool Quotes: Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.
-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better. The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play. I often have to remind people not to underrate divination. The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
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bearsarebrown
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 06:44:10 PM » |
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- What people think is Official WotC (excludes Dragon Mag, Dragonlance, Kalamar)
- What is Official WotC
- Homebrew
Things commonly banned: BoED/BoVD, 3.0 specific, setting specific, Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, Binding. Either because of misunderstandings or not having the book. Most of these bans are stupid. Those are the only three. Separating it by power doesn't make sense. I can run a Tier 5 campaign and allow Dragon Magazine and I can run a Tier 1 campaign core only. In addition, a lot of people, regardless of the type of game, exclude all homebrew. It should never be something assumed to be allowed. |
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 10:24:03 PM » |
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I'm not entirely sure that there needs to be a standard set. What DMs allow varies wildly from group to group. If you're referring to having one in place for building exercises/theoretical builds, everyone pretty much just uses 3.5, un-updated 3.0, and anything else relevant. Semi-official works show up from time to time, but usually only to showcase some particularly choice tidbit from the works in question.
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X-Codes
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 10:45:13 PM » |
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My ideal rules:
1) Expanded Core (SRD (UA stuff by campaign only), PHB II, DMG II, XPH, and all Monster Manuals)
2) All Completes
3) Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Spell Compendium, and Magic Item Compendium
4) All internet resources related to the above works.
5) Dungeon/Dragon magazine material on a case-by-case basis.
6) Potentially a DM selected addition that is appropriate for the setting, such as DotU for an Underdark campaign or LoM for a campaign featuring lots of Mind Flayers.
7) Each player can select one additional book* to add to the above. At creation, they alone get access to it. Afterwards, all players can access it.
*Explicit exceptions, these books are NEVER allowed: Serpent Kingdoms, Savage Species
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Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 10:50:16 PM » |
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Everything WotC has published (with the exceptions of Serpent Kingdoms, Dragon Compendium, some portions of Savage Species, and anything from Forgotten Realms).
Dragon and Dungeon magazines are off-limits. Frank&K Tomes are sometimes allowed if I feel like a day of Rocket Tag, but not always. As for Dragonlance; If its an item then I just need a quote. Classes and feats are a separate issue.
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Unbeliever
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 10:23:44 AM » |
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We have a pretty coherent "standard" which is all 3.5 WotC books. So, we rarely allow Dragon stuff, unless it's to help out a specific build or concept that needs it -- I guess that's case by case basis. We also allow some 3.0 but not updated material -- generally the less broken parts of BoVD and BoED, but we also tend to shy away from that as well. It works well for us.
Personally, I think things are somewhat randomly distributed in RPGs, and so dislike the idea of banning things based on what book they show up in. I mean, Darkstalker happens to live in Lords of Madness, but it doesn't have anything necessarily to do w/ aberrations. A dragon-hunting Rogue would want it badly. The bodyguard feats in DotU are an even better example of that.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 04:49:13 PM » |
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I am remembered. It makes me happy enough to dump this.  There are several standards. The "legal" standard is whatever is legal. I should have given this info dump months ago but I never got around to making a thread for it, which I still might to: What's Legal by categories of decreasing acceptability:CoreAccessible for freeGeneric 3.5 SupplementsGeneric Unupdated 3.0 SupplementsAdventure SpecificCampaign SpecificLicensedLicensed and Campaign SpecificNot Legal:Lapsed Liscenses and Campaign SpecificNever was legal (aka 3rd party)Arbitrary Campaign Coloring: My acronyms are WotC's (Magic of Faerun vs Monsters of Faerun) but longer for ease of looking up: Note: I have excluded books like Diablo II Campaign Setting that have no unique crunch unless they also had large adventures in them. Full listing here: If I forgot any, let me know. I need a complete listing of the Dragonlance 2nd party books, as well as double-checking on simple adventure & coloring. Also what is the exact 3.0 to 3.5 break in Dungeon and Dragon magazines again? Finally to make sure "Living" Greyhawk is the default, non-campaign specific setting, right? |
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« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 02:40:30 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 05:41:09 PM » |
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Eh, I'd argue that anything that was licensed when it was put out should count as being licensed.
Also, you should probably include a link to the free D&D handbook.
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fuinjutsu
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 05:48:25 PM » |
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My take is "tell me your basic build idea, and what you plan to do with it."
balance the builds, not the options.
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Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.
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Maat_Mons
Hong Kong
Posts: 1041
What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 06:17:42 PM » |
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I need a complete listing of the Dragonlance 2nd party books, as well as double-checking on simple adventure & coloring. Also what is the exact 3.0 to 3.5 break in Dungeon and Dragon magazines again?
I though Dragons of Krynn was published by Wizards of the Coast. The Dragonlance books I know of are Age of Mortals, Bestiary of Krynn (original and revised), Dragonlance Campaign Setting, Dragons of Krynn, Holy order of the Stars, Knightly orders of Ansalon, Legend of the Twins, Races of Ansalon, Towers of High Sorcery, and War of the Lance. Dragon magazine printed “FIRST ISSUE D&D 3.5” on the cover of issue 309. |
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 04:48:05 PM » |
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Thanks for those. You are correct about Dragons of Krynn. There is also the key of destiny simple adventure. Do I have the 3.0-4.0 magazine numbers correct?
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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Maat_Mons
Hong Kong
Posts: 1041
What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 07:49:52 PM » |
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Dragon 359 was the last one published by Paizo. Dragon 273 appears to be entirely 2nd edition, except for the final installment of the Countdown to 3rd Edition article series. You may also want to include Dragon Annual. I believe Dragon Annual 5 and 6 were 3rd edition, and all others were 2nd edition or earlier.
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« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 07:52:02 PM by Maat_Mons »
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Dictum Mortuum
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 08:18:52 PM » |
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Some years ago i had a similar thread on the wizard's boards. I think I have kept an archived version. If I find it, I'll upload it here.
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Mixster
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 01:14:56 AM » |
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I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic.
Giving help to a fighter with tome feats is pretty different from giving help to someone without them.
That probably means I agree with PlzBreakMyCampaign
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 01:18:25 AM » |
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I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic. I think everyone assumes that monks are proficient with their unarmed attacks, and that multiclass xp penalties aren't used. |
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Mixster
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 01:22:55 AM » |
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I disagree with any house rules assumed as a "standard" set. Because that would dilute the topic. I think everyone assumes that monks are proficient with their unarmed attacks, and that multiclass xp penalties aren't used. Yeah, but that is out of sheer lazyness. I've seen games played with multiclass xp penalties. Just for sticking to the book. I think most people who see you play monk suggest you do not, or take a fighter or swordsage dip which would grant them unarmed attacks. |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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snakeman830
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 01:35:29 AM » |
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I think that for these boards, what we pull from is any WotC 3.5/unupdated 3.0 unless an actual booklist is given.
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I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle. The book doesn't even exist! Quotes: By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life. hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea. If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit. See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere. |
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Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 02:35:12 AM » |
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I think that for these boards, what we pull from is any WotC 3.5/unupdated 3.0 unless an actual booklist is given.
Hmm. The pattern I've seen is the following: All WotC-published 3.5 material (excluding Dragon). General silliness is presumed out of the question (i.e. all tricks in the dirty tricks handbook somehow will be nonfunctional). If the character in question wants to be a blaster, War Mage (AoM) is suggested. If the character in question wants to be a shaper, ignoring CPsi is suggested. If the character in question wants to do psionics (but doesn't want to go Thrallherd/Slayer), Hyperconscious is suggested. If the character is otherwise under-supported with the above material, Dragon or 3.0 material is suggested. For some niche builds, 3rd party material may be suggested (I can think of: additional 3rd-party vestiges and some Tome material). In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal. |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 02:41:53 AM » |
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In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal. I personally rather like Kalamar stuff (for early 3.0 it's remarkably well balanced), but it's so hard to find the books now that I don't suggest it particularly often. So I suppose how exotic a source is is partially based upon how easy the books are to get - eberron splats, for example, are easier to obtain than ravenloft or dragonlance. |
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 02:43:52 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Suzerain
Bi-Curious George
Posts: 523
is on extended leave
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 02:58:38 AM » |
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In general, I think the 'exoticness' of the sources depends on how much support a build needs to be effective (i.e. on par with the power level in a campaign). And I think that's very much optimal. I personally rather like Kalamar stuff (for early 3.0 it's remarkably well balanced), but it's so hard to find the books now that I don't suggest it particularly often. So I suppose how exotic a source is is partially based upon how easy the books are to get - eberron splats, for example, are easier to obtain than ravenloft or dragonlance. Good point. I suggest that if you find that special something someone needs in one of those though... mention it? Can't hurt, can it. |
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