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zugschef
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« on: January 25, 2011, 02:35:28 PM » |
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UNDER CONSTRUCTIONYour help wanted!
Mystic Ranger, Shooting Star, Sword of The Arcane Order... A Mini-Guide
Contents
I. Introduction The mystic ranger coupled with the shooting star substitution levels und the sword of the arcane order feat leads to some interesting options... This character concept makes an excellent gish without the need for heavy multi-classing, which has the advantage of less character-information to track. However, the concept has some pecularities which are not immediately appearent. This guide shall help with these and be a non-exhaustive reference for the possibilities opened up with this concept. Rating: Perfect, Good, Okay, Bad. (highly subjective, of course) The Sources- Mystic Ranger: Class variant from DR#336 p.105
- Shooting Star: Substitution levels from cov p.50
- Sword of the Arcane Order: Feat from cov p.34
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:41:55 AM by zugschef »
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zugschef
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 02:35:40 PM » |
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II. What You have to work with... As said, the mystic ranger combined with the SotAO feat has some pecularities. Let's try to examine these. First off, we'll focus on the benefits and what you have to give up. - The Good
Cantrips and 5th level spells -- Through level 10 when it comes to spellcasting, a mystic ranger is on par with a sorcerer. More spell slots -- The ranger spell list is really nice, this change lets you make use of it. Ability to cast sorcerer/wizard spells -- Every class wants to be able to cast these spells. A spell-like ability and an expanded spell list -- You take what you get.
- The Bad
More MAD -- From now on you need a minimum of 15 intelligence at level 10 in order to cast the highest level wizard spells. Get an item with an enhancement bonus and be done with it. Delayed class features -- This can be annoying when multi-classing but otherwise a very fair trade-off.
- The Ugly
Reduced Proficiencies -- You lose proficiency in martial melee weapons and shields. No animal companion -- When multi-classing an animal companion is fodder anyway. But it's a useful class feature you have to give up nontheless. One favored enemy less -- Not only do you lose a favored enemy, you get them later. Depending on the campaign this can make a difference, but sorcerer/wizard spells are still a more than adequate compensation.
You see, it's totally worth it to go this route with your ranger (this variant actually makes a push for the most powerful class in the early to early mid levels of the game). Still, there are some more aspects which you have to be aware of. Facts- How is a mystic ranger's caster level determined? The core rules are not applicable as written.
PHB: Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level. Since the mystic ranger casts spells from level 1 on, there are two possibilities: either caster level = ranger level or caster level = ranger level/2, though in the latter case you would again have no caster level at level 1 and couldn't cast any spells at that level.
But all the core classes, including the bard, do not mention the caster level in their rules text, thus it is safe to assume that your caster level is equal to your mystic ranger class level.
- Shooting star rangers with the sword of the arcane order feat and levels in wizard cast their ranger spells at an ex-orbitantly high caster level:
Benefit: [...] If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels. Improved Spellcasting (Ex): When casting ranger spells, a Shooting Star can treat her caster level as equal to one-half her ranger level +2. If she also has arcane spellcasting ability from another class, she can add her caster level from that class to this value to determine her caster level. Now let's take a look at this... The feat explicitly says that your wizard caster level is exactly "the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels". in the case of a ranger10/wizard1 this is 11. (Note, that without a level in wizard, when casting wizard spells your caster level is one-half your ranger level+2.) The substitution level says that, "when casting ranger spells", your caster level is "equal to one-half her ranger level +2" plus the caster level of any arcane class you might have, in this case 11, thus your ranger caster level is indeed 10/2+2+11=18. A mystic ranger's caster level would even be at 21 (10+11). Good luck getting this past your DM, though. Normally your DM will simply rule that your caster level for wizard and ranger spells equals the sum of your wizard, ranger and paladin levels, which should be the way it was intended to be.
- Since you never get an animal companion, you cannot take the level 4 shooting star substitution level. This doesn't hurt you, as a mystic ranger you get more spells anyway.
- The improved spellcasting ability gained from the level 4 shooting star substitution level does not have this problem. Thus, from 4th level on your caster level is at least one half your ranger level +2. This change is pointless for mystic rangers however, whose caster level equals their class level anyway.
- Rangers with the sword of the arcane order feat DO NOT gain access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. They merely can use their ranger spell slots to prepare the spells.
Champions of Valor: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells.
- It's clear that in order to prepare wizard spells, the ranger either has to use a foreign spellbook or take levels in a class, which provides access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
Rules Compendium: Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.
DebatableResults
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« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 05:12:24 AM by zugschef »
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zugschef
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 02:35:53 PM » |
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III. Concerning Wizard Spells... Shooting Star and Sword of the Arcane Order do not give you access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This is a very important problem, because it makes it a little more difficult to actually get to cast wizard spells. Further, you have to remember that you cannot substitute a primary arcane caster. You are a gish and as such need your spellcasting in combat mainly for yourself. What a Dip in the Wizard Class means to you...- Access to the Wizard Spell List: First of all, you get access to the wizard spell list, which is mandatory to make your own spellbook. Otherwise you will need a spellbook from a foreign source, which means that you have to make a spellcraft check every time you try to memorize a spell. But of course, the spellcraft check is not that hard to make: You can take 10 and as a shooting star ranger you have spellcraft on your class list, and 8 ranks is the number you need to auto-succeed on up to level 5 spells, if your intelligence score is at least 15 (15+spell level).
- Improved Caster Level: Further, your ranger caster level gets a push, because of the wording of the shooting star improved casting ability (see Chapter II: Debatable), and if you do not use the mystic ranger variant your wizard caster level increases, too.
- At the DM's Mercy, anyway: In the end wether you dip into wizard or not, your DM has almost complete control over your selection of wizard spells: You have no way to learn new spells other than taking more levels in wizard (which would be a total waste), or finding and/or buying scrolls and/or spellbooks. And if you think about it, since you are of a Mystra-worshipping order, there should be someone who copies spells you find into a spellbook for you.
- A quick Fix for the SotAO Feat:
If you've got levels in wizard, every time you gain a level in the ranger class, you learn a wizard spell of up to the highest level you can cast (either with your wizard or ranger slots, whichever is higher). While this addition would grant nothing new, it would actually take the DM fiat out of the picture (an advantage for players AND for DMs) and change SotAO into a real dual class feat.
How to get a Spellbook...Borrow a spellbook -- As a shooting star ranger, your order should provide you a spellbook with fitting spells. This is surely the most usual way for a mystic ranger to get a spellbook. Unfortunately, you will have to make spellcraft checks to use it. Buy a spellbook -- Read magic or spellcraft checks are necessary; highly unlikely too. Leadership -- Leadership is totally broken, but it is probably the best way for you to get to the spells you want: Simply get a wizard cohort. Loot a spellbook -- See buying, but a lot more realistic. Watch out for traps. Make your own spellbook -- At least one level in a class with access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list is required. This allows you to copy scrolls and spells from other spellbooks into your own. Share a spellbook -- Requires a friendly wizard willing to share his/her spellbook with you, which probably won't be the case regularly. Again, spellcraft checks are necessary. Steal a spellbook -- See buying, but even more unlikely. Watch out for traps. Wizard Spells of Note1st Level2nd Level3rd Level4th LevelBlack Tentacles -- Another spell which gives you the power to control the battle field and makes hunter's eye (or sneak attack in general) that much easier to use, since grapplers lose their dexterity bonus to armor class. Celerity -- As an ass-saver... Sure, why not? Dimension Door -- This spell solves a lot of out of combat problems and is a very nice "o shit!"-button in combat. Minor Creation -- This spell's got its own thread.Polymorph -- Broken beyond repair... 5th Level
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« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 04:37:08 AM by zugschef »
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zugschef
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 02:36:17 PM » |
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IV. Alternate Class Features, Class Variants and Substitution Levels You may have already settled for the variants mentioned in the thread's title, but it doesn't need to stop there: The following ACFs and substitution levels are at your disposal. - Alternate Class Features
Arcane HunterCM -- If this acf is allowed you should almost always take it. Most BBEGs have some sort of spell-casting ability. Spell ReflectionCM -- Reflecting targeted spells can be really satisfying, but losing evasion does really hurt. This totally depends on your taste. Trap ExpertDS -- Now you can be the party's trapfinder.
- Class Variants
Wild-Shaping RangerSRD -- A very strong class variant, this helps you reduce MAD and makes you a melee powerhouse.
- Substitution Levels
Elf RangerRotW -- The skillpoints come in handy if you want to be the party's skillmonkey, and you can override the favored enemy with the Arcane Hunter acf. Elf WizardRotW -- If you are an elf and pick up a level of wizard, you can do nothing wrong with this substitution level.
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:39:58 AM by zugschef »
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zugschef
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 02:36:28 PM » |
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V. Builds
- Wild-shaping ranger with the natural spell feat
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:39:47 AM by zugschef »
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zugschef
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 02:36:35 PM » |
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zugschef
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 02:36:42 PM » |
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zugschef
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 02:36:56 PM » |
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zugschef
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 02:37:10 PM » |
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zugschef
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 02:38:02 PM » |
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zugschef
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 02:41:56 PM » |
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well, as you can see this thing is still under development. i had this lying around for quite some time now, but didn't find the time to work on it myself. since threads with this topic are regularly opened, i thought i could just share it and count on your help to finish it, and answer a lot of questions before the need for another thread with the same topic arises.
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Ithamar
Hong Kong
   
Posts: 959
PM me if you're interested in some Arena action!
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 05:20:59 PM » |
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Interesting. Could any of these sub-levels potentially be combined with the PrC Ranger from UA to get wizard casting onto what is otherwise a full druid?
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Are you worthy of Ascension?Always accepting gladiators! Now with a new and improved rule set!
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CantripN
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 07:40:26 PM » |
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RAW, Sword of the Arcane Order would work. Good luck getting a DM to allow that, but sure. It's a feat, so so long as you qualify (Prestige Ranger 4), you can get it.
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Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.
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zugschef
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 03:57:14 AM » |
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c'mon, this makes me angry... it's right in front of you, yet you refuse to RTFM: [3.5] Mystic Ranger, Shooting Star, Sword of The Arcane Order... A Mini-GuideRangers with the sword of the arcane order feat DO NOT gain access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. They merely can use their ranger spell slots to prepare the spells. Champions of Valor: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. [...] It's clear that in order to prepare wizard spells, the ranger either has to use a foreign spellbook or take levels in a class, which provides access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Rules Compendium: Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:01:43 AM by zugschef »
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cru
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 05:25:23 AM » |
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Rules Compendium: REPLACING AND COPYING SPELLBOOKS The procedure for learning a spell can be used to reconstruct a lost spellbook. A spellcaster who already has a particular spell prepared can write that spell directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page. The process wipes the prepared spell from the mind, just as casting it would.
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zugschef
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 05:40:20 AM » |
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Rules Compendium: REPLACING AND COPYING SPELLBOOKS The procedure for learning a spell can be used to reconstruct a lost spellbook. A spellcaster who already has a particular spell prepared can write that spell directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page. The process wipes the prepared spell from the mind, just as casting it would.
which is still under the premise that said spell must be on the copier's class spell list... note that your quote is listed under "replacing and copying spellbooks" and mine is listed under "adding spells to a spellbook". since the first sentence in the "replacing and copying a spellbooks" paragraph says "The procedure for learning a spell can be used to reconstruct a lost spellbook" this whole paragraph relies on the assumption that said caster already had a spellbook. and i think it's fair to assume that the copying part is targeted at casters who want to copy their own spellbooks (because they bought a blessed book for example), because the part about adding spells to your spellbook is already dealt with under "adding spells to a spellbook -- copied spells". think of it like this: a sotao ranger/paladin can use a spell just like anybody can use a technical formula. however, that does not automatically imply that said ranger/paladin does have the deeper knowledge and understanding to derive the formula ab initio.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:47:34 AM by zugschef »
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 05:54:56 AM » |
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c'mon, this makes me angry... it's right in front of you, yet you refuse to RTFM: [3.5] Mystic Ranger, Shooting Star, Sword of The Arcane Order... A Mini-GuideRangers with the sword of the arcane order feat DO NOT gain access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. They merely can use their ranger spell slots to prepare the spells. Champions of Valor: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. [...] It's clear that in order to prepare wizard spells, the ranger either has to use a foreign spellbook or take levels in a class, which provides access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Rules Compendium: Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add a spell to their book whenever they find one on a scroll or in another caster’s spellbook. The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list. Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook. If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels. Lets see... we have a feat that, by your interpretation, would be completely useless under circumstances where the designers clearly thought it would work (since, you know, you wouldn't have them on your spell list without multiclassing into wizard). Yep, I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong.
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cru
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 06:21:40 AM » |
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Suggestions to the guide: - under The Ugly, add limited proficiencies (loses martial melee weapons, shields) - baleful polymorph is on mystic ranger's spell list, you can remove it from the suggested wizard spells I guess (unless his Int is higher than Wis, I guess)
Hmm, both mystic ranger and sword of the arcane order 4 (bonus spells) require that you give up your animal companion. I guess you won't be able to take this sub level, then. Edit: you got that covered.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:31:10 AM by cru »
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zugschef
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 11:04:27 AM » |
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Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook. If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels. Lets see... we have a feat that, by your interpretation, would be completely useless under circumstances where the designers clearly thought it would work (since, you know, you wouldn't have them on your spell list without multiclassing into wizard). Yep, I'm pretty sure your interpretation is wrong. w00t? the feat is absolutely NOT useless without a personal spellbook. you can make a spellcraft check or cast read magic in order to prepare a spell from a foreign spellbook. why do you think they explicitly mention in the feat's rules text that the spells can be taken from a foreign spellbook and that this requires a spellcraft check? for the same reason that they wrote "(if you have one)": it is not considered to be the standard that you have a spellbook. and again: the feat is absolutely NOT useless without a personal spellbook.
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