His advice is heavy on the min maxing!

[Unbeliever]

I only learned of CO after playing Baldur's Gate 2 for a bit. I kept getting my ass handed to me by any and all spellcasters, because they'd just use Web, Stinking Cloud or Hold Person, and I'd just lose. I used to try and brute-force encounters, and I kept losing unless luck was on my side.

And then I realized I don't have to use a hammer when other tools are more fitting. And if I'd use a hammer, I'd be sure to Haste and Buff it to hell and back.

One of the Roleplay > rollplay people in my D&D group now tried to play Baldurs gate 1.. He went a neutral good rogue, decided to skip the 2 evil party members they give you at the start because they were evil and therefore can't be trusted even just as a matter of we are going the same way why not have the extra protection. Then when he got to the Tavern that level 2 mage which had mirror image beat him every time. He promptly quit said it was too hard and he had better things to spend his time on and missed out on one of the greatest gaming series ever 

I'm kind of guilty of playing games in "character" which makes them artificially hard.  Then again, I'm also kind of fond of playing Splinter Cell w/ minimal gear and no executing ... so I might just be a glutton for punishment. 

[stranglebat]

what about dues ex without killing anyone on realistic all to impress your brother paul!?!

[Runestar]

The ironic thing was that I was saw his article on the dragonborn warforged warblade/barb/dragon shaman character in rules compendium, was heartened by the "he optimizes" revelation, only to read the "advice" about combining weapon spec with sneak attack...

Have you seen many other quotes that make you think the Designers are nuts?

also the "but the choices you make about these mechanics can lead to interesting roleplaying concepts" line makes me think that he feels minmaxing a character means its not as good roleplay wise. Sad panda.

Those optimization snippets in the 3.0 PHB and dragon magazines? I think I once saw advice which recommended that an elven wizard buff with cat's grace prior to casting tenser's transformation...

Or one which claimed how a 1st lv dwarf fighter with 20con and great fortitude got +9 fort save. Wow! This isn't optimization, this is simply pointing out a fact!

A small part of me hopes they intended all this as some sort of practical joke. Maybe they are secretly laughing at people who unknowingly screw their PCs over while thinking they are breaking the game by min/maxing. 

[SeekingKnight]

For a long time I use to not think of Char Op as a good thing.  Mostly due to bad experiences with a crappy DM.  But since I have really set about looking at these boards and using my own brain Char Op is a good thing.  Granted one can take things a bit too far but damn a lot of it makes sense.

Like today I was thinking about the rogue i wish to make for an online game.  It was/is a half elf rogue with an oddball mix of stats (had a 9 in Con..boy that was dumb..) like five craft skills, and a bunch of other nonsense (Hello alertness and quick draw).  So, after reading a helpful thread someone linked to me here, I began thinking about it more on how to make it a good character.  A few things dawned on me.  One is there are some finite resources in D&D 3.x, one of them is feats.  So if one is looking at any PrC that has a feat pre req it stands that a person has to plan a long term build if they want said  PrC which means usin feat slots.  Well if one can get those feats from bonus feats from other classes or ACFs why not take those and use the precious feats one has for more useful things.  Now I am sure that is common knowledge here on the Char Op boards but it hit me solid today.

Now when i see another group I play with take up stupid feats or think that Healing is a good domain I sigh, still what was said before is true.  They play like tier 5 is the way to play.  Oh well. 

[Ras F]

I only learned of CO after playing Baldur's Gate 2 for a bit. I kept getting my ass handed to me by any and all spellcasters, because they'd just use Web, Stinking Cloud or Hold Person, and I'd just lose. I used to try and brute-force encounters, and I kept losing unless luck was on my side.

And then I realized I don't have to use a hammer when other tools are more fitting. And if I'd use a hammer, I'd be sure to Haste and Buff it to hell and back.

One of the Roleplay > rollplay people in my D&D group now tried to play Baldurs gate 1.. He went a neutral good rogue, decided to skip the 2 evil party members they give you at the start because they were evil and therefore can't be trusted even just as a matter of we are going the same way why not have the extra protection. Then when he got to the Tavern that level 2 mage which had mirror image beat him every time. He promptly quit said it was too hard and he had better things to spend his time on and missed out on one of the greatest gaming series ever 

He should have 'borrowed' the potion of clarity upstairs in Candlekeep Inn, and equipped himself and Imoen with shortbows. I think that mage is at least 5th level.  Bows in that game are broken.
Incidentally, if people other than myself still play I.E. games, I heartily recommend checking out Gibberlings3.

[Sinfire Titan]

One is there are some finite resources in D&D 3.x, one of them is feats.

Exactly. Several of my players have yet to figure out that you can get Weapon Finesse for free with Feycraft, despite me pointing it out to them (they prefer having the feat so they "don't get fucked over when they get disarmed", not that this has ever happened).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

(they prefer having the feat so they "don't get fucked over when they get disarmed", not that this has ever happened).

B.b..b.b.b.b.ut

If they're disarmed...

WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO FINESSE?  THE AIR?

[Bozwevial]

Unarmed strike, maybe. Unless the enemy disarming them is King Arthur, in which case their best hope is to grab a Regenerate.

[stranglebat]

yeah same baldurs gate guy cut his cleric archers dps way down by refusing to GMW his bow because he needed the 3rd level slot for cure serious (evil no channelling positive) and wouldnt take a precise bow and get rapid shot feat, his arguement was if his bow got sundered he wouldnt have precise shot anymore, wouldnt listen even after i pointed out he wouldnt have a bow to shoot with. so hes happy with 2 attacks per round (he at least persists DP) 3 when he has haste instead of 3 or 4 shots

[Sinfire Titan]

(they prefer having the feat so they "don't get fucked over when they get disarmed", not that this has ever happened).

B.b..b.b.b.b.ut

If they're disarmed...

WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO FINESSE?  THE AIR?

Or, you know, they could have sunk a couple of gp into a Locked Gauntlet?



Which they don't even realize exists...

[Agita]

Stole the last name from Kelgore's Grave Mist?

And Kelgore's Fire Bolt, yes.

[Littha]

I always find a nice test of peoples optimising is if they can beat baulders gate 2 with 1 character.... Its not even that hard if you do it right.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I always find a nice test of peoples optimising is if they can beat baulders gate 2 with 1 character.... Its not even that hard if you do it right.

normal or expansion

[Caelic]

I always find a nice test of peoples optimising is if they can beat baulders gate 2 with 1 character.... Its not even that hard if you do it right.

That's as much a matter of understanding the AI governing the game as actual optimization, though.  If you know how to exploit the flaws in the game's AI, you don't need a particularly optimized character.

I had a friend who was obsessed with the Kensai/Mage dual class, which I always thought was drastically overrated.  He couldn't understand why I preferred ranger/cleric--which for some reason got all druid spells added to its spell list.

[Mixster]

But damn you give some good quotes about monks!

make me look like Giacomo!

JaronK

Okay! Will do!

I always find a nice test of peoples optimising is if they can beat baulders gate 2 with 1 character.... Its not even that hard if you do it right.

What did you play? I'm considering running through it again with a pure mage. So far I've run through it as a ranger, a bard and a kensai, so playing as a mage could be sort of cool.

I've just always had an issue with playing a Mage in a Crpg. Their spells are usually pretty badly implemented.

[CantripN]

It's really quite easy to win with a Mage in BG. Easier than most classes, actually. Of course, a Dual-Class Fighter or Rogue to Wizard is better, since it's like paying 1 LA for TONS of HP, the ability to use a lot of useful items, and STEALTH+BACKSTAB.

Kensai/Wizard dual-class isn't half-bad, really. You can't wear robes, but you're really good at hurting people with your super-buffed mage if for some reason they're hard to affect with magic.

It always made me laugh when I could do a x7 Damage Backstab with an Assassin, too. It's fun to see chunks of Mage flying about after a single hit. Assassin => Fighter was even scarier, since you could even stay and fight after. if they somehow lived.

[LordBlades]

But damn you give some good quotes about monks!

make me look like Giacomo!

JaronK

Okay! Will do!

This thread makes me want to play Baldur's Gate again

IMHO quotes like the one from the OP are a proof of how much WotC game designers knew about their own system.

Both the actual printed material, as well as various statements made by several WotC staff members about their D&D gaming experience gave me the impression that their understanding of 3.5 was based more around 'wishful thinking' than actual, thorough play-testing. They approached the game with certain character concepts and archetypes in mind(blaster wizard, healbot cleric etc.), checked that the system supported those in a reasonably balanced and viable manner, and drew the conclusion the system was good. I don't think they spent too much time thinking about what somebody that wanted to defy the archetype could do.

[Dictum Mortuum]

I always find a nice test of peoples optimising is if they can beat baulders gate 2 with 1 character.... Its not even that hard if you do it right.

That's as much a matter of understanding the AI governing the game as actual optimization, though.  If you know how to exploit the flaws in the game's AI, you don't need a particularly optimized character.

I had a friend who was obsessed with the Kensai/Mage dual class, which I always thought was drastically overrated.  He couldn't understand why I preferred ranger/cleric--which for some reason got all druid spells added to its spell list.

Due to experience caps:
Baldur's Gate 2 without expansion: dual class rocks.
Baldur's Gate 2 with expansion: multi class rocks.

I'm not talking about kensai/wizard, which is actually decent. I, too, prefered stalker/cleric (druid+cleric+3 wizard spells, backstab), but in the long run you get more abilities by going multiclass

Littha is kindof right about d&d and baldur's gate. For example a solo character won't survive long without summons or buffs (especially at those damn mind flayers). So you have at least an understanding that summons > direct damage spells, wizards (liches, etc) own everything if you're not prepared to engage them and that cleric != healbot.  

[Dictum Mortuum]

It's really quite easy to win with a Mage in BG. Easier than most classes, actually. Of course, a Dual-Class Fighter or Rogue to Wizard is better, since it's like paying 1 LA for TONS of HP, the ability to use a lot of useful items, and STEALTH+BACKSTAB.

Kensai/Wizard dual-class isn't half-bad, really. You can't wear robes, but you're really good at hurting people with your super-buffed mage if for some reason they're hard to affect with magic.

It always made me laugh when I could do a x7 Damage Backstab with an Assassin, too. It's fun to see chunks of Mage flying about after a single hit. Assassin => Fighter was even scarier, since you could even stay and fight after. if they somehow lived.

Actually, kensai/wizard can wear robes. Which is kinda ironic But I remember mine wearing robe of vecna and amulet of power and going all potatoes on enemies 

[CantripN]

With a Casting Speed of 0 for most spells, that was nice. You could essentially do it while attacking, without it costing you anything.
It's a lot like Automatic Quicken Spell.