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stranglebat
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« on: January 21, 2011, 06:06:33 AM » |
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From the Rules Compendium p148 MIN-MAX TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
Many methods can maximize the benefits you get from fighting
using two weapons. My favorite utilizes sneak attack and fighter
bonus feats.
By playing a fighter/rogue, you swiftly gain access to Weapon
Finesse and Weapon Focus. Using the same light weapon in
each hand, or using an exotic weapon with two striking ends,
you benefit from both feats, more than making up for the penalty
for fighting with two weapons. Sneak attack and Weapon
Specialization get you past the lower damage dealt by light
weapons. Taking feats such as Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting tips the scales even farther in
your favor. I like using weapons with wide critical threat ranges
and taking the Improved Critical feat. That way, a larger number
of attacks have a much greater possibility of producing a spectacular
hit.
This advice might seem heavy on min-maxing, but the
choices you make about these mechanics can lead to interesting
roleplaying concepts. You character might be a dwarf hunter
who fights using two throwing axes, keeping several others
handy on his belt. Or maybe she’s a fierce human gladiator who
wields two punching daggers. Perhaps instead your character
is a lightly armored elf fencer who wields two short swords and
uses Combat Expertise and Two-Weapon Defense.
—Matthew Sernett, designer Have you seen many other quotes that make you think the Designers are nuts? also the "but the choices you make about these mechanics can lead to interesting roleplaying concepts" line makes me think that he feels minmaxing a character means its not as good roleplay wise. Sad panda. |
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 06:10:04 AM by stranglebat »
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Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 06:21:50 AM » |
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Yeah, there was a statement a while back calling Meteor Swarm and Fireball good battlefield control spells.
For fireball, it is against Mooks. But Meteor Swarm? A spell that deals most of it's damage to a single target, allows SR 4 times, allows Fire Resistance 4 times, and deals less pinpoint damage than Disintegrate? I would like to know who wrote that, so I can mail him a gun and give him a way out.
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Mixster
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 06:44:58 AM » |
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TML pointed me towards this little snippet of gold: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013aPlayers always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes. Yeah, you can look forward to more useless powers. |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 07:30:21 AM » |
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TML pointed me towards this little snippet of gold: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013aPlayers always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes. Yeah, you can look forward to more useless powers. Learning curves differ, and I suspect that players who think Monks are uber and designers who think Meteor Swarm is BFC aren't sharp enough to discriminate between failure due to randomization elements and failure due to bad design. So they babystep. I was minmaxing at the rogue/fighter level as well before I found CO in 2005. Never thought of applying math to D&D before then, never played beyond 3rd level either, so the Big 5 were a pipedream till I found the 339 boards. |
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JaronK
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 08:28:53 AM » |
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Hey, they're right. Monks do boast colorful and unique abilities. Just, you know, not so many actually potent abilities.
Still, stuff like this is a good reminder that the way the game is supposed to be played (as the designers intended it) is much lower powered than the game as it's made. Tier 5 is actually what you're supposed to play... healbot Clerics and blaster Wizards supporting TWF Fighters and, well, Monks, with the Druid wielding a Scimitar in normal form in the background. Monks and Fighters weren't the mistakes... Clerics, Druids, and Wizards were.
JaronK
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stranglebat
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 09:34:14 AM » |
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I think they also intend for you to go rogue 10+ for all their high level special abilities
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Mixster
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 11:50:15 AM » |
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Hey, they're right. Monks do boast colorful and unique abilities. Just, you know, not so many actually potent abilities.
Still, stuff like this is a good reminder that the way the game is supposed to be played (as the designers intended it) is much lower powered than the game as it's made. Tier 5 is actually what you're supposed to play... healbot Clerics and blaster Wizards supporting TWF Fighters and, well, Monks, with the Druid wielding a Scimitar in normal form in the background. Monks and Fighters weren't the mistakes... Clerics, Druids, and Wizards were.
JaronK
I agree on this. But damn you give some good quotes about monks! |
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Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.
JaronK
Meep Meep - Mixster out |
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 01:35:13 PM » |
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At the very least, he's acknowledging that optimization can easily lend itself to roleplaying opportunities.
But yeah, before I started visiting the 339 boards I had something of an optimization epiphany. I rolled up a wizard for a 5th level one-shot game--not an evoker, a conjurer, because it seemed like something to do. I wound up soloing the final encounter--Invisibility, Glitterdust, summoned elementals, and an Orb spell for good measure. It was easy, effective, and I found myself wanting to do this more often. A search for more useful strategies brought me to the CharOp forums, and boom.
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Unbeliever
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 01:37:13 PM » |
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Have you seen many other quotes that make you think the Designers are nuts?
also the "but the choices you make about these mechanics can lead to interesting roleplaying concepts" line makes me think that he feels minmaxing a character means its not as good roleplay wise. Sad panda.
Math is hard ... |
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CantripN
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 01:43:37 PM » |
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I only learned of CO after playing Baldur's Gate 2 for a bit. I kept getting my ass handed to me by any and all spellcasters, because they'd just use Web, Stinking Cloud or Hold Person, and I'd just lose. I used to try and brute-force encounters, and I kept losing unless luck was on my side.
And then I realized I don't have to use a hammer when other tools are more fitting. And if I'd use a hammer, I'd be sure to Haste and Buff it to hell and back.
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Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.
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Akalsaris
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 06:26:26 PM » |
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I don't even see how the advice given is heavy on min-maxing - it's more like heavy on solid advice for new players. Heavy on min-maxing would be more along the lines of 'I also dip barbarian 2 for pounce from CC and improved trip from UA, and typically play as a neraphim for neraphim charge and the ability to polymorph into a babau with a wand of polymorph self later on'
As a sidenote, I got into CO when I was living in Japan and had no internet for a month, so I decided to start making D&D characters to get the feel for it better. Kind of a 'I have nothing better to do, I guess I'll learn Char Op' approach.
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JaronK
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 06:35:43 PM » |
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But damn you give some good quotes about monks! Take enough out of context Monk quotes from me and you'd make me look like Giacomo! JaronK |
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 06:42:29 PM » |
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But damn you give some good quotes about monks! Take enough out of context Monk quotes from me and you'd make me look like Giacomo! JaronK You'd need to be dropped on your head a few dozen times as a child and have an extra-soft head to look like Giacomo, JaronK. Also, I borrowed your name for a character in a story of mine...without the K. |
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JaronK
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 06:58:38 PM » |
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Also, I borrowed your name for a character in a story of mine...without the K.
That's kind of awesome. Funny thing: my forum name comes from a long ago character knight type I invented when I was 10. Feel free to throw that guy into your game as some distant guy in the past he was named after! JaronK |
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 07:03:07 PM » |
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Also, I borrowed your name for a character in a story of mine...without the K.
That's kind of awesome. Funny thing: my forum name comes from a long ago character knight type I invented when I was 10. Feel free to throw that guy into your game as some distant guy in the past he was named after! JaronK He's a story character, not a D&D character, though. See my sig? ...Yeah. It's my latest one. |
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 07:05:51 PM by Lycanthromancer »
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ninjarabbit
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 08:13:53 PM » |
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The designer's advice is heavy on the min and not so much on the max.
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Agita
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 08:27:38 PM » |
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But damn you give some good quotes about monks! Take enough out of context Monk quotes from me and you'd make me look like Giacomo! JaronK You'd need to be dropped on your head a few dozen times as a child and have an extra-soft head to look like Giacomo, JaronK. Also, I borrowed your name for a character in a story of mine...without the K. Funny you should mention that. A character I'm currently playing is named Jaron Kelgore. I take my inspiration for names from wherever it comes. When I have an idea, I use it because I'm bad at coming up with names otherwise.  As for the quote... A game designed by people like this is my favourite RPG?  |
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 09:00:15 PM » |
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Stole the last name from Kelgore's Grave Mist?
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BrokeAndDrive
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 189
Why are there no ghosts of dinosaurs?
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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 09:37:45 PM » |
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Again with the implication that "min-maxing" is wrong! I am fed up with this baseless garbage. [SHAPECHANGE: MATURE ADULT RED DRAGON] A good old bloke named Tempest Stormwind already Santa-gifted us all an obdurium goliath greathammer each, to nonchalantly bean upside the heads of clueless knuckle-draggers who believe a good character = a fighter with 6 Str, or that roleplaying = your plate-armored Sir Lancealot beginning battles by breakdancing, "because background! Burr hurr hurr!" While s/he calls their arguments the Stormwind Fallacy, I call it "you're retarded, shut up". Sadly, most people you need to use either line on are too stupid to know what a "fallacy" is. But I digress. Anyway... Would someone please be so kind as to explain to me, in small words so that I may understand, why in the Seven Mounting Heavens "min-maxing", "power-gaming", or otherwise being good at your choice of profession (i.e., adventuring) is a bad thing?I'm sure many of the aforementioned knuckle-dragging troglodytes will belch out "ur tryna one-up ur firenz!11". But what if they are not? Just because some do, that auto-broadstrokes the whole group* guilty by association? How is that any less ridiculous than, "there is child porn, therefore we should ban all porn," or, "there is violence in TV/movies/video games/comic books, therefore we should ban all entertainment and play with rocks and sticks all our lives"? Are you jealous that someone's good at something? Work on your self-esteem, take it as an opportunity to better yourself, or suck it up and deal with your envy like an adult. I mean, Jesus, the knee-jerk cry of "baw charop!" is on par with shouting Mary-Sue at any character more interesting than cardboard! No wonder so much fiction sucks: writers everywhere fear the Internet wrath *snrk* of THESE downs-syndrome droolers -- who apparently wish for a world of no color, depth, imagination or accomplishment, where everything is as equally worthless as themselves! Ultimately, the division of tabletop gameplay and roleplay is a false dichotomy. It is as absurd as attempting to separate the water in the pond with a fishing pole. * That group being, "anyone smart enough to realize that a wizard with high Intelligence is better at being a wizard than wizard who isn't very Intelligent (even a 3 year old orc can come to this conclusion: 'wizzuh read book, smart to read book, wizzuh smart'), or that a warrior is better at being a warrior with a greatsword than with a dagger." [END RANT] The designer's advice is heavy on the min and not so much on the max. Yes. As for the quote... A game designed by people like this is my favourite RPG? I'm glad it is, otherwise where would all this delicious min-maxing come from?  If you want an RPG where the designers learned their le- let's not go there. By the way, hotlinking to SomethingAwful is a baaad idea...  I highly recommend this instead.
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Random quotes: I think Roy's coinages are shitty and dumb, but Failroy has to take the cake for the dumbest new compound word of the year
~
That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.
==
JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.
So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~
And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.
Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
~
My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it. |
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stranglebat
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 11:06:56 PM » |
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I only learned of CO after playing Baldur's Gate 2 for a bit. I kept getting my ass handed to me by any and all spellcasters, because they'd just use Web, Stinking Cloud or Hold Person, and I'd just lose. I used to try and brute-force encounters, and I kept losing unless luck was on my side.
And then I realized I don't have to use a hammer when other tools are more fitting. And if I'd use a hammer, I'd be sure to Haste and Buff it to hell and back.
One of the Roleplay > rollplay people in my D&D group now tried to play Baldurs gate 1.. He went a neutral good rogue, decided to skip the 2 evil party members they give you at the start because they were evil and therefore can't be trusted even just as a matter of we are going the same way why not have the extra protection. Then when he got to the Tavern that level 2 mage which had mirror image beat him every time. He promptly quit said it was too hard and he had better things to spend his time on and missed out on one of the greatest gaming series ever  |
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