Nytemare's PHB Rewrites: Combat Expertise

[Nytemare3701]

Combat expertise has been described as a "failed turtle tactic". Hopefully this will help alleviate that.

Changes
•Fighting Defensively works like the old Combat Expertise.

The new new combat expertise will grant a benefit based on your BAB
• BAB 5: Retain 1/2 your BAB (so the 10 BAB fighter gets to keep 5 of it and still get 10 AC)
• BAB 10: Allow -BAB equal to half your original BAB. (so the BAB 10 fighter could get 15 AC at the cost of a -15 to attack)
• BAB 15: Allow -BAB equal to your original BAB. (A fighter 15 could hit a whopping +30 AC)

Obviously this doesn't solve the problem of "tanking sucks, because you aren't a threat". That's where "Improved Combat Expertise" comes in.

•As a swift free action, you may give the benefit of your Combat Expertise to an ally within 5 feet for one round. You lose all the benefits of combat expertise until your next turn.

Clarification: All these abilities effectively lower your BAB, meaning they eat your iterative attacks.

[Bauglir]

I'm not sure I understand, quite. At level 5, you can still only trade up to 5 points of BAB, but now each point gives 2 points of AC? And then at level 10 you can trade up to 1/2 your BAB (so no benefit until level 12, when that becomes 6)? And then at level 15, you can trade up to your full?

Incidentally, the Improved Combat Expertise probably needs a bigger radius, since I don't think people are actually 5 feet away from each other that often. Maybe make it within your reach, instead?

[Nytemare3701]

I'm not sure I understand, quite. At level 5, you can still only trade up to 5 points of BAB, but now each point gives 2 points of AC? And then at level 10 you can trade up to 1/2 your BAB (so no benefit until level 12, when that becomes 6)? And then at level 15, you can trade up to your full?

Incidentally, the Improved Combat Expertise probably needs a bigger radius, since I don't think people are actually 5 feet away from each other that often. Maybe make it within your reach, instead?

BAB5: you can trade up to your BAB, but half of it isn't expended as a negative to attack, giving you a AC=BAB, with ATK=1/2BAB

BAB10: If you had 10 BAB, you could take a -15 to attack, granting a +15 to AC. (combine with the BAB 5 perk for a -10 attack, +15 AC)

BAB15: If you had 15 BAB, you could take a -30 to attack, granting a +30 to AC. (combine with the BAB 5 perk for a -23 to attack, +30 AC)

[Bauglir]

Okay, so it's not 1/2 at level 10, it's an ADDITIONAL 1/2 on top of the 1 it started at? And then for higher levels, what happens if you use less than max? Say you're a level 12 Fighter and you want to gain a +6 AC. Do you take a -4 penalty to attack (bonus is 1.5 times the penalty) or no penalty at all (keeping 1/2 his BAB of 12, or 6 BAB)?

[Nytemare3701]

Okay, so it's not 1/2 at level 10, it's an ADDITIONAL 1/2 on top of the 1 it started at? And then for higher levels, what happens if you use less than max? Say you're a level 12 Fighter and you want to gain a +6 AC. Do you take a -4 penalty to attack (bonus is 1.5 times the penalty) or no penalty at all (keeping 1/2 his BAB of 12, or 6 BAB)?

Fighter 12 wants to gain 6 AC.

Fighter sacrifices the needed BAB to get 6 AC

Fighter retains half of what he sacrificed.

Simple enough?

The level 5 ability gives you some breathing room mathwise.
The level 10 ability just lets you burn more BAB than you have.

[Bauglir]

Okay, that makes sense. The wording in the OP just seemed confusing to me (probably just the condensed form of it). "Retain 1/2 your BAB", for instance, could probably be rephrased as "Retain half of the penalty to your attacks that you would ordinarily have taken."

[BrokeAndDrive]

I'm not sure I understand the hatred for "turtling". Yeah you're not killing as well as you would by being naked and charging with a battle-axe, but you can't be a threat if you're dead.

[veekie]

Okay, that makes sense. The wording in the OP just seemed confusing to me (probably just the condensed form of it). "Retain 1/2 your BAB", for instance, could probably be rephrased as "Retain half of the penalty to your attacks that you would ordinarily have taken."

Would have been simpler to say double AC gains from attack tradeoff and half BAB limit to tradeoff. Like you know, Power Attack does with damage.

[RobbyPants]

I'm not sure I understand the hatred for "turtling". Yeah you're not killing as well as you would by being naked and charging with a battle-axe, but you can't be a threat if you're dead.

The idea isn't that you can't make yourself unhittable.  It's not even that you can't make yourself unhittable to the point where you can eventually grind down your opponent's HP while he continually misses you.

The idea is that D&D is typically a group game, and a typical turtle will probably be trying to tank, to keep the baddies off of the more squishy members of the party.  The problem is, you sacrifice a lot of offensive power for a strong defense, and standing behind you are team members with a much higher offense and a much lower defense.  As far as the monsters are concerned, they're the true threat, not the turtle.  Also, they can be killed more quickly.  So, when the turtle drops his offense into way-below-level-appropriate for a super defense, the monsters simply walk past him, provoking piddly AoOs, and go murder the more squishy members of the group.

Without something like a huge reach and Standstill or something, it's really hard to make someone who can actually "tank".  D&D doesn't have an aggro mechanic, and smart monsters will just ignore the guy and kill the people who are actually dealing damage or casting spells.  That's the problem with turtling.  Without some fundamental changes to combat, it just doesn't work.

[Nytemare3701]

Without some fundamental changes to combat, it just doesn't work.

Perfect. I'm rewriting the whole PHB remember? Maybe a tanking feat that forces an attack roll vs your ac to pass you?

[veekie]

^^
Unless you're fighting in a 15ft wide(25ft if you have reach) tunnel all the time, getting past that is going to be kinda trivial.

[Nytemare3701]

^^
Unless you're fighting in a 15ft wide(25ft if you have reach) tunnel all the time, getting past that is going to be kinda trivial.

Fair enough. What would you suggest then? Stealing the marking mechanic from 4E?

[veekie]

Ripping it off wholesale would be less than satisfactory, but a Stand Still ability and high mobility(high land speed and adequate alt movement modes) works, as does any Taunt abilities or simply sending opponents movement abilities(including teleportation) down to a terrible rate.

[Nytemare3701]

Taunt abilities or simply sending opponents movement abilities(including teleportation) down to a terrible rate.

How about:
• Hamstring effects as combat maneuvers?
• Swift Action "taunt" maneuver?
• I design a complete threat mechanic?

Threat mechanic idea:
"Taunting" something gives you a +1*BAB damage bonus to attack rolls vs them. The bonus stacks with itself, and lasts until the end of the encounter OR until the creature damages the tank. A tanking character would quickly become quite a large threat if not dealt with quickly.

[RobbyPants]

There are other ideas, too.  Take the Tome Knight class, for instance.  The basis for it's Designate Opponent 1st level class feature is that you "mark" an opponent within medium range (100 ft + 10 ft/level), and if they fail to deal damage to you before the start the Knight's next turn, the knight gets to smack them extra hard.  So, while it doesn't force your opponent to hit you, it gives them a strong incentive.

That's the flip side to turtling right there.  One good way of tanking is to make yourself such a credible threat that you can't be ignored.  That helps with a lot of mobility/space issues.

[Nytemare3701]

There are other ideas, too.  Take the Tome Knight class, for instance.  The basis for it's Designate Opponent 1st level class feature is that you "mark" an opponent within medium range (100 ft + 10 ft/level), and if they fail to deal damage to you before the start the Knight's next turn, the knight gets to smack them extra hard.  So, while it doesn't force your opponent to hit you, it gives them a strong incentive.

That's the flip side to turtling right there.  One good way of tanking is to make yourself such a credible threat that you can't be ignored.  That helps with a lot of mobility/space issues.

That's pretty much what I was suggesting, with it being changed from class specific to a combat maneuver. I want it to be available whatever class you play, and for tanking types to be better at it (due to high BAB)