Fixing the Unfixable

[Bozwevial]

There are parts of the game that no one will touch with an 11-foot pole because they’re so unbearably awful, for whatever reason. Tons of rule revisions just gloss over them or slap a bandage on them because they aren’t addressing the underlying problems with the concept. This thread is for discussion and proposed fixes for these rules.

Please note that fixes for things like the Monk probably belong in another thread. This one is intended for system mechanics.

That said, onto a first topic: Sundering. As you probably already know (and if you don’t, Sunic will be the first to tell you), sundering as of right now is the equivalent of stopping a bullet with your face. It’s difficult to do, you’re not helping much by doing it, you’d be better off spending that effort elsewhere, and it winds up hurting you more in the long run because you just caught a bullet with your face, you idiot. The problem is, sunder ‘fixes’ ignore the problems with sundering an item in the first place.

1)   Sundering takes away from your treasure. As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

2)   Sundering is relatively difficult to do. If you’re trying to break a weapon, you make an opposed attack roll (in most cases, this is already harder than hitting a certain AC), then have to worry about hardness and hit points. You’ve already spent a feat to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. Every point of enhancement bonus on that weapon makes it tougher and harder to sunder (and more expensive, which makes you sadder). And you really had better hope your opponent is the same size or smaller, because if they’re bigger their weapon has at least double the normal hit points. And they probably bought an adamantine weapon anyway. And so on.

3)   Sundering should be equivalent to or better than a full attack. Note the word should there, because it isn’t. It really isn’t. You’ve spent a feat on it, you’ve made the rolls, you’ve resigned yourself to poverty, but at the end of your turn? Your opponent is still alive, probably still dangerous, and isn’t any less healthy for your pains. For the same feat cost, you could have taken Power Attack and completely negated your opponent by murdering him harder. In the face.

4)   Sundering is situational. If you’re fighting something that doesn’t use a manufactured weapon or gear, it’s a useless trick.


So how do you make sundering a viable option when a chained dispel is superior in almost every way? Here’s something quick and dirty off the top of my head, fashioned after the Tome feats in that it scales with base attack bonus.

Improved Sunder

+0: You get a +4 bonus on sunder attempts.

+1: You use just the right force to break items. Items you sunder can be repaired with 5 minutes of work and a DC 20 Craft check (which expends no materials), a Mending spell, or a similar effect.

+6: You can make a full attack composed of nothing but sunder attempts as a standard action. Also, your sunder attempts ignore any hardness an item possesses.

+11: You can sunder a creature’s natural weapons or armor. Sundering the former renders the weapon unusable, while the latter removes the creature’s natural armor bonus. Natural armor has a hit point value equal to the armor bonus times 5, while natural weapons have 20 hit points if they are primary or 10 if they are secondary (doubled or halved by size categories as normal). The damage dealt to the creature’s weapons or armor in this fashion also subtracts from the creature’s hit points as normal, because doing otherwise wouldn’t make any damn sense. The creature regains use of the weapon/armor once it receives enough healing to bring the weapon/armor back up to full. Also, you can sunder a Force effect by doing twice its caster level in points of damage to it, which either destroys a 10x10 hole in the effect or eliminates it completely if it's smaller.

+16: You can make a full attack composed of nothing but sunder attempts against every eligible target on a given opponent as a standard action, although by now this is something of a formality.

Also, a few minor changes to the sunder rules:

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.) WHEN I WAS A YOUNG WARTHOOOOOOOG

Step 2
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

Step 3
Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield.

If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage.

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object
You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

These changes have been made because 1) you can totally sunder something with a lance, 2) HEY GUYS LET'S MAKE IT EVEN MORE ANNOYING TO USE THESE COMBAT MANEUVERS, 3) this reads like something that should have been taken out of the final draft--why can't you sunder some other dude's armor, and why would you want to sunder your own?

So, feel free to tear these ideas to shreds, discuss them some more, put new ones up for debate, whatever.

Edit: Specified when a sundered natural whatever can be used again. It has to be healed back to full because otherwise a Cure Minor Wounds invalidates whatever you just did, though in-combat healing will almost assuredly bring the natural whatever back anyway.

Edit again: Redid the broken item text so it made more sense and lessened the chance that monsters would sunder every piece of loot the PCs owned.

And again: Added the option to sunder Force effects.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

why can't you sunder some other dude's armor, and why would you want to sunder your own?

Warhulk manifesting expansion, or Druid.

[Bozwevial]

why can't you sunder some other dude's armor, and why would you want to sunder your own?

Warhulk manifesting expansion, or Druid.

Your equipment would either grow with you or meld into the new shape, would it not?

[veekie]

I gotta leave for work now but this should help a bit.

Sunder

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.

Broken

Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.

    * If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
    * If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
    * If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
    * If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
    * If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item's. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).

Deals with item 1 at least.
Be back later.

[Prime32]

I would just say "if you destroy an item, the DM adds treasure equal to its value".

[The_Mad_Linguist]

why can't you sunder some other dude's armor, and why would you want to sunder your own?

Warhulk manifesting expansion, or Druid.

Your equipment would either grow with you or meld into the new shape, would it not?

No.
Rules Citation:

[oslecamo]

I would just say "if you destroy an item, the DM adds treasure equal to its value".

Or allow for easy repairs. Break now, fix it later by the camp fire. Warhammer orcs get pretty much all of their equipment this way. Break stuff, then put it back togheter and use it to break more stuff!

Making the sundering easier kinda hurts the players more, because they're usually the ones with most equipment in battle.

[Prime32]

Making the sundering easier kinda hurts the players more, because they're usually the ones with most equipment in battle.

What if you were using rules like these though?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9135.msg307944#msg307944

[veekie]

I would just say "if you destroy an item, the DM adds treasure equal to its value".

Or allow for easy repairs. Break now, fix it later by the camp fire. Warhammer orcs get pretty much all of their equipment this way. Break stuff, then put it back togheter and use it to break more stuff!

Making the sundering easier kinda hurts the players more, because they're usually the ones with most equipment in battle.

Well, IIRC theres even a feat(or was it ACF for some class, will need to check) in Pathfinder for dealing extra damage with broken weapons. IIRC it was related to some sunder stuff too.

[Bozwevial]

No.
Rules Citation:

Make a Strength check to burst the enclosure.

Or allow for easy repairs. Break now, fix it later by the camp fire. Warhammer orcs get pretty much all of their equipment this way. Break stuff, then put it back togheter and use it to break more stuff!

Well, that's basically what I have right now. Break it outright or leave it intact for later use.

Making the sundering easier kinda hurts the players more, because they're usually the ones with most equipment in battle.

Eh, not terribly. Any creature capable of using the items probably won't break them outright since they might make use of them later, and the more time a creature spends sundering is less time murdering your face. Although it does fuck over Tome Monks a little more.

[oslecamo]

Making the sundering easier kinda hurts the players more, because they're usually the ones with most equipment in battle.

What if you were using rules like these though?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9135.msg307944#msg307944

Then sundering becomes completely useless against players, because they can just cover every single of their items inside multiple sheets of protective adamantine, wich are completely free by those rules.

Bozwevial: Eerr, that's like saying that monster won't try to murder the players because they believe they can keep them alive for slavery/interrogation/other stuff.

There's reasons why the rust monster is feared despite tecnically not really being able to kill anyone.

EDIT:Also, "disabled untill the end of the ecounter" just doesn't make any sense to me. What did you do, hit it in the right wave frequency in order to stop it's magic from working untill you send a mental command that it's ok to work again?

[Bozwevial]

Bozwevial: Eerr, that's like saying that monster won't try to murder the players because they believe they can keep them alive for slavery/interrogation/other stuff.

It's one thing to take special measures not to kill an enemy, but this is literally no more difficult to do than breaking the item would be. The effect is the same, but if the monster wins it gets extra loot, and if the players win they don't have to go buy more gear.

There's reasons why the rust monster is feared despite tecnically not really being able to kill anyone.

Yeah, but the rust monster actually eats metal stuff. An NPC or item-using monster wants to keep it around because, hey, free gear. Same reason any reasonably intelligent PC won't sunder magic stuff; it'd be throwing away money.

EDIT:Also, "disabled untill the end of the ecounter" just doesn't make any sense to me. What did you do, hit it in the right wave frequency in order to stop it's magic from working untill you send a mental command that it's ok to work again?

If you like. Or you know just where to hit it to stop it working temporarily, or you hit it just hard enough to knock something crucial loose that you can fix later. It's mechanically the same as breaking it and then fixing it later with a handwave.

[veekie]

Mending isn't particularly high level and can probably be counted as the repair mechanism.

[Bozwevial]

Mending isn't particularly high level and can probably be counted as the repair mechanism.

Yeah, that or a Craft check or something.

[oslecamo]

Bozwevial: Eerr, that's like saying that monster won't try to murder the players because they believe they can keep them alive for slavery/interrogation/other stuff.

It's one thing to take special measures not to kill an enemy, but this is literally no more difficult to do than breaking the item would be. The effect is the same, but if the monster wins it gets extra loot, and if the players win they don't have to go buy more gear.

There's reasons why the rust monster is feared despite tecnically not really being able to kill anyone.

Yeah, but the rust monster actually eats metal stuff. An NPC or item-using monster wants to keep it around because, hey, free gear. Same reason any reasonably intelligent PC won't sunder magic stuff; it'd be throwing away money.

That assumes that:
1-The monster believes it can win the battle.
2-The monster cares about items, instead of being an half-intelengent brute that hates shiny things.

If the monster is cornered, bringing down some of the party's equipment with him means his other buddies will have an easier time avenging his death. It's also a viable hit and run tactic for faster monsters, wearing down the party by destroying their equipment and then pulling back, then finishing them. Better to win with little loot than die at the hands of a wealthy oponent.

If the monster is just some "SMASH" creature, well, they don't really care about money, and you just made SMASH easier.

Or you know just where to hit it to stop it working temporarily, or you hit it just hard enough to knock something crucial loose that you can fix later. It's mechanically the same as breaking it and then fixing it later with a handwave.

It's still an uneended handwave. Can't you just put the mending/craft check clause? Because it allows stuff like finding broken gear that the commoners can't repair and use but the PCs can.

[Hida Reju]

Sundering is a very tricky issue I have played a few characters that had it as a character trick but I had a little chat with the DM about not counting the things I sundered against the party.

Lets just say that any time I successfully sundered a weapon or misc item amazingly enough there was a chest with some gold near by or some other contrived thing.

Also its usefulness is very campaign specific if you are fighting a bunch of humanoids that use weapons and items then its more than a bit useful. But then again I just burned a single feat for improved sunder and I was already a Adamantine wielding two handed power attack kinda fighter. So really it was low investment for a trick.

The big issue is to have the chat with your DM ahead of time otherwise you cut your own throat.

[AtomicKitKat]

IIRC, there was a Tactical Feat in Complete Warrior that rewarded sundering the opponent's shield(Momentum Swing? Combat Brute?) with a follow-up free attack.

[Bozwevial]

That assumes that:
1-The monster believes it can win the battle.
2-The monster cares about items, instead of being an half-intelengent brute that hates shiny things.

If the monster doesn't believe it can win the battle, it's probably going to be more concerned with escaping than smashing items. So the only situation where that holds true is if the monster is completely unable to escape, and if that's true, the monster probably isn't in a position to sunder either.

If the monster is cornered, bringing down some of the party's equipment with him means his other buddies will have an easier time avenging his death. It's also a viable hit and run tactic for faster monsters, wearing down the party by destroying their equipment and then pulling back, then finishing them. Better to win with little loot than die at the hands of a wealthy oponent.

Those tactics assume some level of intelligence on the part of a monster, which is good if the monster is intelligent (cunning opponents should be played as such).

It's still an uneended handwave. Can't you just put the mending/craft check clause? Because it allows stuff like finding broken gear that the commoners can't repair and use but the PCs can.

Yeah, you're right. It's probably better to make that the case in all cases so that gear can be salvaged.

So, any thoughts on the feat as it stands now?

[RobbyPants]

IIRC, there was a Tactical Feat in Complete Warrior that rewarded sundering the opponent's shield(Momentum Swing? Combat Brute?) with a follow-up free attack.

There is a maneuver from Combat Brute that you're thinking of, but it has a different name.  It works nicely as you described, so long as the loot isn't magical.  The downside is the investment of two feats (Improved Sunder and Combat Brute), and the right circumstances don't come up very often.  Those two feats could be better spent on Improved Bullrush and Shock Trooper, and you could instead insta-gib the guy on a charge and take his loot later.

Momentum Swing is a maneuver from Combat Brute that lets you increase your Power Attack damage on attacks the round after you charge.  So, it works okay with Shock Trooper in case someone survives your pounce charge, but it isn't nearly as potent, and it costs two feats.

[RobbyPants]

So, any thoughts on the feat as it stands now?

It's cool all in all.  I have to think more about sundering body parts and NA a bit more.

One thing that would be cool as hell is the ability so sunder Force Effects at level 11 if you deal X damage (possibly based on the CL of the effect).