Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?

[Gods_Trick]

Then let them have what they want and trust cognitive dissonance to do the work of making them happy for you. Problem solved, your welcome.

So your solution to making 3.5 a more balanced, fun experience out of the box is, "Fuck you, spend years learning how to play on the internet like we all did"?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you manage to make a "more balanced, fun experience out of the box" are you going to publish it? are people who haven't spent years on the net even going to know of your new system? If not and it really is just for us, then why not just use the better classes and some optomization?

I know it's lame quoting my self, but I wanted to see what people reacon. I'm just saying that maybe mundanes are fine cause you can optomise them and perhaps it's just some of the caster stuff that needs to be fixed.

I'd love to get the finished rebalancing published, but thats a Sisyphian task. But I'll reitrate: its a better game to have somebody able to break and make worlds, enslave angels and deal with the devil, than none able.

Theres 4E for everyones equal.

[Cephid Arcanis]

But I'll reitrate: its a better game to have somebody able to break and make worlds, enslave angels and deal with the devil, than none able.

Couldn't agree more! Aren't you just talking about high level play thou? Fixing a few broken caster options will still allow this kind of epic stuff, and well optomised mundanes can do some very epic stuff too.
I'm just questioning the value of entirely rebuilding some of the very poor classes.

[Gods_Trick]

But I'll reitrate: its a better game to have somebody able to break and make worlds, enslave angels and deal with the devil, than none able.

Couldn't agree more! Aren't you just talking about high level play thou? Fixing a few broken caster options will still allow this kind of epic stuff, and well optomised mundanes can do some very epic stuff too.
I'm just questioning the value of entirely rebuilding some of the very poor classes.

Cause their not classes, their archetypes. When I read Druss the Legend, I wanted to play a fighter. Not a TOB class which are wizards of melee, or a multiclass build, I wanted to be Death walking on the battlefield by sheer dint of awesome.  Thats a fighter, which the Fighter ... fails at being.

I'd rather see (and play) a game where you can be an epic warrior, instead of ... not-an-epic-warrior, that feels better about herself because the caster didn't blow through the encounter.

I wouldn't mind nerfing the wizard and regularly do so in game, but lets do that after meleers stop competing in the Special Olympics.

[Mixster]

silliness

Wow... That must be a joke.
This guy plays a wizard and takes toughness thrice. No way in hell he can think that is a good idea.

In fact, he doesn't play a wizard he plays a commoner, a commoner with mage armor, shield and stat buffs.

[Gods_Trick]

silliness

Wow... That must be a joke.
This guy plays a wizard and takes toughness thrice. No way in hell he can think that is a good idea.

In fact, he doesn't play a wizard he plays a commoner, a commoner with mage armor, shield and stat buffs.

What gets me is his idea of balanced classes, that being commoner + buffs should be equal to any other wiz build. To his credit, he gets that evocations suck, just hasn't figured out that wizards play rock/paper/scissors, low DCs 

[Cephid Arcanis]

Cause their not classes, their archetypes. When I read Druss the Legend, I wanted to play a fighter. Not a TOB class which are wizards of melee, or a multiclass build, I wanted to be Death walking on the battlefield by sheer dint of awesome.  Thats a fighter, which the Fighter ... fails at being.

So what is wrong with making an optomised Druss the Legend build, with a few levels of fighter, some of PrC A, a little Prc B, wicked feat combos and an amazing Axe?

Is it important to be able to do it with Fighter 20?

[Gods_Trick]

Cause their not classes, their archetypes. When I read Druss the Legend, I wanted to play a fighter. Not a TOB class which are wizards of melee, or a multiclass build, I wanted to be Death walking on the battlefield by sheer dint of awesome.  Thats a fighter, which the Fighter ... fails at being.

So what is wrong with making an optomised Druss the Legend build, with a few levels of fighter, some of PrC A, a little Prc B, wicked feat combos and an amazing Axe?

Is it important to be able to do it with Fighter 20?

The salient point is being able to do it with a few fighter levels, and not need to splash barbarian, or whatever gives the feats prereqs ro PrC A & B. Fighters need to be more than feats to enter PrCs, thats just prereq inflation and the fighter is becomes the falling lira.

[veekie]

Cause their not classes, their archetypes. When I read Druss the Legend, I wanted to play a fighter. Not a TOB class which are wizards of melee, or a multiclass build, I wanted to be Death walking on the battlefield by sheer dint of awesome.  Thats a fighter, which the Fighter ... fails at being.

So what is wrong with making an optomised Druss the Legend build, with a few levels of fighter, some of PrC A, a little Prc B, wicked feat combos and an amazing Axe?

Is it important to be able to do it with Fighter 20?

Yes, considering that for the same amount of effort you could rule the universe with a caster. And you're still limited to a small subset of valid builds.

Remember one thing with mundanes is a ludicrous amount of their combat ability comes off their equipment. A naked high level fighter is no better at parrying than a low level one(I've always thought class defense bonus + armor as DR should have been the way to do it), and all that equipment is magical. So essentially, mundanes ARE magic. Everything they do of significance is from their magic anyway.

[Cephid Arcanis]

The salient point is being able to do it with a few fighter levels, and not need to splash barbarian, or whatever gives the feats prereqs ro PrC A & B. Fighters need to be more than feats to enter PrCs, thats just prereq inflation and the fighter is becomes the falling lira.

I don't know if this is applicable to everyone, but in my campaigns EVERYTHING acts as a mold. i.e. all flavour text, attitudes, alignments, are totally flexible.

E.g. my friend wanted to make a 'Battle Mage' so we made a melee cleric. (He was never called a cleric)

I needed some aliens, but couldn't find anything suitable so I gave them the stats of Trolls.

We had a battle field controling grusarm userwith about 5 different class levels including one of cleric and barbarian, but the story was he had trained his whole life at one place and he was very calm and focused. The few cleric spells (Rhino rush) played as a surge of strength. Those classes just gave him his stats.

A naked high level fighter is no better at parrying than a low level one(I've always thought class defense bonus + armor as DR should have been the way to do it), and all that equipment is magical.

So include 2 levels of sword sage in the build for Wis to AC. Describe the character as you like.

I find it works great, because you take control of the game and can have both the perfect 'feel' of a character or event, and the game function you want.

[Waazraath]

Please, take it to a different thread.  We've had enough "bitch about silliness in other forums" for the quarter already.

This is beautiful! 

[Gods_Trick]

Perhaps I didn't explain well. The fighter is a weak class, and I can call it RedButted Baboon Killer or She-Ra Princess of Power doesn't change that. The class functions is a prereq qualifier and has no character of its own.

I'd like to play a melee class that fits the Druss archetype, and for various reasons the mechanics of the other class impose a different flavour on attempting it. So that tells me we need a class that functions decently to fill that void. Right now WotC sell a bloody lie that the Fighter is that class. That offends me as a player, and a fantasist.

I've played a Hood build which is several classes & PrCs, but I just called her a Dragoon. Flavour. I can call a Fighter competent, but thats not the same thing. Unless the DM works to make it so.

[Cephid Arcanis]

So what mechanical characteristics are you looking for in Druss?

[Senevri]

Right now WotC sell a bloody lie that the Fighter is that class. That offends me as a player, and a fantasist.

Uh... The pedant in me wants to remind, that they don't... either that or they're more correct than you think - the whole 4E thing, and all.

IAC, the fighter looks a whole lot like a class built to test this 'feats' concept they had in 3rd edition, and that's about it.
I don't know any Druss, but according to a quick Wikipedia read, if it's the character from the Drenai series, the wikipedia entry reads a lot more like a Barbarian than anything else. Natural ability without formal training and all....

[Sunic_Flames]

So the real fighter fix is to find one you like and play it.

I think this is real wisdom.

I've been thinking for a while about how to make 3.5 more playable, as we all have been. I have a friend who plays a straight fighter or paladin every. single. time. With only PHB feats no less. How could I run a game with such an ineffectual character? How could I challenge the other players without killing him in every encounter?

Should I nerf every spell? Should I take away DMM and spontaneous divination and wildshape? Should I change the entire CR system? Every feat? Every skill?

Should I tweak every aspect of the game? Or should I have him play a warblade? A crusader. A tome class. Any rewrite under the sun.

One day there might be a smooth, new system with all the flavor of 3.5. Until then, just play a good class.

Giving him a competent class would be a good idea.

silliness

Whoah  

Well ... as long as your having fun I guess. Anyway, underpowered mundanes .... do out of the box gishes like rangers, duskblades and paladins count as mundane? Cause they certainly aren't overpowered.

Paladin and Ranger =/= gish.

Duskblade = gish.

So here's the thing.

A beatstick's thing is hitting the thing with the other thing. And here's the problem.

Hitting the thing with the other thing is kiddie shit!

Everyone can hit the thing with the other thing. Even low level nobodies can hit the thing with the other thing. Some of them even do so quite well, such as the level 1 raging Dragonborn Water Orc Barbarian (because freak shows are all the rave around here) who auto attacks and PAs for +10/+10/2d6+15 on a Whirling Frenzy Pounce.

Hell, random animals can hit the thing with the other thing quite well. Why do you think Animal Companions are jokingly referred to as "Fighters as a class feature"?

When some caster wakes up in the morning and Persists Wraithstrike, and Divine Power, and Draconic Polymorph (War Troll) and starts auto attacking touch AC with a Str of 45 regardless of their actual Str score it's not because spellcasters are overpowered, or because Wraithstrike, or Divine Power, or Draconic Polymorph, or Persist is overpowered, it's because hitting the thing with the other thing is kiddie shit, and real classes can trivially pull off such stunts.

No. The problem with beatsticks is that kiddie shit is all they can do.

And as such, they are doomed to be replaced by real classes.

Show me some actual martial characters, not just beatsticks who can actually advance the plot on their own power and do things that don't involve doing the thing with the other thing and you'll show me a character who cannot be Cleric Archered into irrelevance. As it is though, they are casually replaced because they do nothing of importance, and therefore the only valid solution is to give them things of importance to do.

Otherwise you have Pathfailure, where everyone just says fuck melee and spams spells at each other. Can't spam spells? Guess you're just kind of there.

[Sunic_Flames]

People are still using the fighter as baseline  . The King of AC my ass ...

http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=987.html

Seriously, maybe its only CO'ers who ever need to optimise. Maybe everyone else plays a different D&D?

The guy who made that thread is one of the heavier mouth breathing fuckwits over at Paizo. You should be expecting incompetence and fail in tune with the twisted heart that keeps him alive to corrupt the world with his very presence.

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Paizil R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!"

[Cephid Arcanis]

As it is though, they are casually replaced because they do nothing of importance, and therefore the only valid solution is to give them things of importance to do.

While I would say killing baddies is pretty important (at least in my games) I completly see your point.

So what in particular (other than hitting) should mundanes be able to do? What forms the basis of classic fantasy archtypes?

Rule minions
Putting fear in others
Destroying/moving things with strength alone
Knowing amazing tactics
Surviving epic punishment
Having amazing senses
Having amazing reflexes
Ancestral knowledge/dream training

Help build this up.

[Gods_Trick]

Right now WotC sell a bloody lie that the Fighter is that class. That offends me as a player, and a fantasist.

Uh... The pedant in me wants to remind, that they don't... either that or they're more correct than you think - the whole 4E thing, and all.

IAC, the fighter looks a whole lot like a class built to test this 'feats' concept they had in 3rd edition, and that's about it.
I don't know any Druss, but according to a quick Wikipedia read, if it's the character from the Drenai series, the wikipedia entry reads a lot more like a Barbarian than anything else. Natural ability without formal training and all....

Hmm, oh are we talking tenses? Otherwise I'm at sea as to the cause of your pedantry.

[Senevri]

Right now WotC

Uh... The pedant in me wants to remind, that they don't... either that or they're more correct than you think - the whole 4E thing, and all

Hmm, oh are we talking tenses? Otherwise I'm at sea as to the cause of your pedantry.

Basically.

@Cephid Arcanis:
The two at the top are mainly bad guy things, though.
Being incredibly naturally talented at something... is basically what having a PC class should be.
Getting "Just as Planned" as a class feature is a bit tricky in D&D, though. although I think being retroactively able to declare that some specific preparation had taken place WOULD be really cool. In fact, that's _clearly_ The Adventurer's class feature. ( writes down )

[Gods_Trick]

As it is though, they are casually replaced because they do nothing of importance, and therefore the only valid solution is to give them things of importance to do.

While I would say killing baddies is pretty important (at least in my games) I completly see your point.

So what in particular (other than hitting) should mundanes be able to do? What forms the basis of classic fantasy archtypes?

Rule minions
Putting fear in others
Destroying/moving things with strength alone
Knowing amazing tactics
Surviving epic punishment
Having amazing senses
Having amazing reflexes
Ancestral knowledge/dream training

Help build this up.

Hmm  . Mundane basics: Inspiration on the battlefield. Knowing or creating mundane weaknesses for monsters & spells.  Tripping, grappling, bullrushing etc as a useful ability without any optimisation. Mettle. Class inherent source of damage bonus.

Past level six you have big damn heroes!

Extraordinary: Having superior non-magical travel, attack and defending options compared to spell effects. Attacks that cause status effects at a useful DC. Sense threat level of other meleers and monsters. Advanced threat range.

I feel past 12th level the Fighter should be anime character, so I add the animesque effects.

Animesque: Attacks that replicate spell effects within reason & thematically appropriate (windwall is cool, animate object is out). Opponents must roll a miss chance to hit. Kills on confirmed criticals. Treats force effects or magical barriers as adamantium.

[Cephid Arcanis]

Hmm  . Mundane basics: Inspiration on the battlefield. Knowing or creating mundane weaknesses for monsters & spells.  Tripping, grappling, bullrushing etc as a useful ability without any optimisation. Mettle. Class inherent source of damage bonus.

Past level six you have big damn heroes!

Extraordinary: Having superior non-magical travel, attack and defending options compared to spell effects. Attacks that cause status effects at a useful DC. Sense threat level of other meleers and monsters. Advanced threat range.

I feel past 12th level the Fighter should be anime character, so I add the animesque effects.

Animesque: Attacks that replicate spell effects within reason & thematically appropriate (windwall is cool, animate object is out). Opponents must roll a miss chance to hit. Kills on confirmed criticals. Treats force effects or magical barriers as adamantium.

These are great. Is this worthy of a new thread. Both ideas and potential solutions.

As for "Tripping, grappling, bullrushing etc as a useful ability without any optimisation." Perhaps one extra core only fighter feat/3 levels could work. That would mean non-specialists could be more broadly able.

For inspiration/knowing weakness/sense threat level etc. just knowledge skills would do most of it. Perhaps a skill check to bypass DR?

Given that items are a saple part of D&D, isn't it ok to rely on them for some things?

But really thou, Tome of Battle can do almost everything here. And a 1 or 2 level dip to a can get you lots without diluting your character concept.