Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?

[Kuroimaken]

And? They're still faster than you.

Are they twice as fast? Because if their not then they can't attack, and are wasting their action while 3 other characters are trying to kill them.

If one of the characters has a draconic aura the party can heal up to half while taking no actions other than running. Which at lower levels is enough to eat a full attack  and not die. Usually.

Where is the twice as fast bit coming from? You can use trip on a charge, you know. That means your foe can't even disengage safely anymore.

You can run 4x your speed.

Or 3x your speed if you're in heavy armor. The rogue won't mind, but the Fighter's probably gonna be pissed that you're leaving him behind.

Not to mention that if they're faster than you AS A BASE, they can simply get up in your face. If you disengage, they charge, if you run, they get an AoO and you don't get Dex to AC (and they might as well grapple or trip so you don't go anywhere).

Not every action needs to include an attack to be effective.

EDIT: Then the next round, he can hurt you as you try to escape, time and again. If you're unsuccessful he can just auto-attack the shit out of you, rinse, lather, repeat.

[Midnight_v]

True... Kuroimaken.
Couse they're really just wanting on some level to take a nerf bat to the Fullcaster. They've forgone that conclusion. It's really hard explaining why someon's wrong when they already convinced themselves and then you're just fighting against confirmation bias. Its really a headache. I've actually TRIED to run from an encounter once and it wen pretty much like you say. Except everyone else was dead...
The thing about nerfing is basically the "they came to take the jews" situation. Which is an actual example of why slippery slope arguments are in someways secretly valid.
BAN: DMM!
and I said cool I wasn't a cleric.
Ban:Wildshape. Well I thought... the druids are strong.
Ban: 9th level spells! Hmph wizards could do with less power..
Ban: UBERCHARGIN! And since I wasn't ubercharging I said nothing.
When they yelled "Ban the spike chain! ITS Broken!" no was left to stand with me for they had all been nerfed.
Naw. Fuck that shit path forever.
Ban anything that goes infinite
but nothing that is simply considered Overpowered.
Then take the dudes that actually aren't good... and give them things that are good, and a something that seems overpowerd, cause it makes them not be small in the pants. You'll end up with a game that works for playing "The avengers" or JLA or whatever.

Some people though... the rules don't matter much really, apparently there are Dm's who won't let you die unless you do something "stupid" i.e. (something they don't like) that makes the rules somewhat less important.

[Kuroimaken]

True... Kuroimaken.
Couse they're really just wanting on some level to take a nerf bat to the Fullcaster. They've forgone that conclusion. It's really hard explaining why someon's wrong when they already convinced themselves and then you're just fighting against confirmation bias. Its really a headache. I've actually TRIED to run from an encounter once and it wen pretty much like you say. Except everyone else was dead...
The thing about nerfing is basically the "they came to take the jews" situation. Which is an actual example of why slippery slope arguments are in someways secretly valid.
BAN: DMM!
and I said cool I wasn't a cleric.
Ban:Wildshape. Well I thought... the druids are strong.
Ban: 9th level spells! Hmph wizards could do with less power..
Ban: UBERCHARGIN! And since I wasn't ubercharging I said nothing.
When they yelled "Ban the spike chain! ITS Broken!" no was left to stand with me for they had all been nerfed.
Naw. Fuck that shit path forever.
Ban anything that goes infinite
but nothing that is simply considered Overpowered.
Then take the dudes that actually aren't good... and give them things that are good, and a something that seems overpowerd, cause it makes them not be small in the pants. You'll end up with a game that works for playing "The avengers" or JLA or whatever.

Some people though... the rules don't matter much really, apparently there are Dm's who won't let you die unless you do something "stupid" i.e. (something they don't like) that makes the rules somewhat less important.

I actually had a DM who fucked up with uberchargers by diminishing PA multipliers and the amount of buffs you were allowed to have on you at any given time. Then his NPCs would violate that specific houserule by cheating with an in-game solution. At which point the PLAYERS would gain access to the same solution, and he would be sad and make the solution not work anymore. It was a fucking nightmare.

My point is that both aspects bring the game down. You can buff a "mundane" to have similar levels of awesome for SOME things like the casters, which is basically giving the "mundanes" the caster's tricks. (This is typically the way "mundanes" go up in power too, not counting things like ubercharging.) You'll basically blur the line, though. You can take a nerfbat to casters, but once the players start encountering shit you needed the pre-nerfbat stuff for, they're utterly FUCKED. You could try doing BOTH things, and the party might even actually survive, but they probably won't win. There is no definitive answer to this.

Ideally, what one should do is to give the "mundanes" things that are THEIRS, AND ONLY THEIRS, that casters can't replicate without becoming less caster-y or jumping through a million hoops, so that each has the things ONLY THEY CAN DO. Maybe the Wizard gets to redefine reality and the Fighter gets to have an AMF that doesn't affect him or his items for a while. Maybe you give IHS to every mundane. Just make sure the casters can't do the same!

[SorO_Lost]

Now, let's see how many level 9 casters is a level 17 encounter... oh right, it's 16. And any one of them is better than you while using a lower level spell.

That's hardly a fair comparison.  Telekinesis is brokengood.

Besides, the CR system breaks down for larger numbers of opponents.

A CR 15 encounter is 107 CR 2 monsters.

A commoner1 ghost2 is CR2.  So are sharks, shocker lizards, and bugbears.  The legion of ghosts could easily create a total party wipe - the others would be a speedbump at best.  Hell, 107 sorcerer1s casting magic missile could do you in.

Not if you cast Meteor Swarm!  

[Sunic_Flames]

Now, let's see how many level 9 casters is a level 17 encounter... oh right, it's 16. And any one of them is better than you while using a lower level spell.

That's hardly a fair comparison.  Telekinesis is brokengood.

Besides, the CR system breaks down for larger numbers of opponents.

A CR 15 encounter is 107 CR 2 monsters.

A commoner1 ghost2 is CR2.  So are sharks, shocker lizards, and bugbears.  The legion of ghosts could easily create a total party wipe - the others would be a speedbump at best.  Hell, 107 sorcerer1s casting magic missile could do you in.

Using TK as an example was deliberate, both to show that Meteor Swarm fails, and that the minimum benchmark for blasting is 3d6/level (which TK hits).

And? They're still faster than you.

Are they twice as fast? Because if their not then they can't attack, and are wasting their action while 3 other characters are trying to kill them.

If one of the characters has a draconic aura the party can heal up to half while taking no actions other than running. Which at lower levels is enough to eat a full attack  and not die. Usually.

Not hard to find an enemy with a 40 foot move. Only a little harder to find 60. And it only takes once, maybe twice. There is also pewpewpew.

Draconic Aura is way too slow, even at level 1, and well, it only heals to half. Not a lot.

Than your king asks you to leave his court and domain.

You are to be royally banished from our lands.

How'd you become king, then? I didn't vote for you.

I declared him the King of Fail. He seemed to think that gives him power over people that actually matter.

Besides that, shifting spell levels would do quite a bit. Any spell that's a must-have or obviously best for it's level is too strong, although a spell that retains its usefulness over the career of a character is just fine. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is underpowered, it's just that gate, time stop and shapechange are overpowered.

Fail.

Meteor Swarm is underpowered. No, scratch that. It is completely fucking worthless. You cast it on a level SEVEN PC, and chances are they survive it. Keep in mind you are at minimum TEN LEVELS HIGHER THAN THEM, and can therefore kill an NI number of level 7s, and will if you use anything other than Meteor Swarm to do it. But since Meteor Swarm is so sad and pathetic it won't kill a single one, despite supposedly being your highest level tricl.

A seventh level character can survive on average 112 no-save damage? I guess, if optimized for HP.

Well, it's possible it'll only deal 32 damage, after all. Not to mention it's fire... :/

Level 7 character casts Resist Energy. Average damage is now 32. Easily survived.

There are so many problems with that argument.

How would you know which kind of resist energy to cast? Why are you casting Resist Energy at all? How do you make sure that you go first? How do you even know they'll cast Meteor Swarm? How do you know it won't be energy subbed? All these uncertainties make it unlikely that a level 7 could prepare against Meteor Swarm.

Fire is the most common, because it's a common buff, because it has the duration to be precast, because lol Divination, because anyone smart enough to optimize blasting will use Wings of Flurry as their base and not Meteor Swarm?

Fine. Compare to TK, from an 8 levels lower caster:

27d6, but not foiled as well by resists, or in this case DR as PCs rarely have any DR.

Now, let's see how many level 9 casters is a level 17 encounter... oh right, it's 16. And any one of them is better than you while using a lower level spell.

True, on the other hand, how many level 3 casters is a level 17 encounter? My math is bad, but I think it's 124128. Now, what's the damage on Acid Arrow again?
Besides, I thought using multiple low-level creatures was lame, or something?

*edit* ninja'd by TML, more or less.
*edit2* 8. I meant 8. I'm bad, but not that bad. I blame the headache.

Face it - Meteor Swarm is sad, pathetic, and a waste of a spell, and any so called level 17 that lost half its HP from such a gimpy gimped spell of gimpiness is unworthy of the title of that level.

Well, if we either remove or bump up the broken crap like gate, shapechange and time stop it does better by comparison. Sure, it's direct damage.

And as for l17s, I admit dragons have more, but a Marilith at 216 HP, and a Frost Jarl Giant are right in the correct ballpark.
Let's see... Nightcrawler at CR 18 has 212 HP, a Pit Fiend has 225 and so forth. Presuming a way to circumvent elemental immunity, two meteor swarms kill some, and three kill most opponents. Well, without a critical hit, which are rather unlikely.

But, of course, equal-cr encounters are just to be steamrolled over by full casters, right? None of this fight lasts more than one round crap....

Hi Welcome

That's from fire resist and DR on most of those.

[lans]

And? They're still faster than you.

Are they twice as fast? Because if their not then they can't attack, and are wasting their action while 3 other characters are trying to kill them.

If one of the characters has a draconic aura the party can heal up to half while taking no actions other than running. Which at lower levels is enough to eat a full attack  and not die. Usually.

Not hard to find an enemy with a 40 foot move. Only a little harder to find 60. And it only takes once, maybe twice.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that dwarves and heavy armor are bad choices, and that rat people are good choices.

Running isn't good very often, but maybe the characters get lucky that 1% failure rate happens against a CR 20 tree thing?

There is also pewpewpew.

I agree that running away will not work against anybody with competent ranged attacks, and that my version of competent might be considered inept to you.

Draconic Aura is way too slow, even at level 1, and well, it only heals to half. Not a lot.

Well, if running worked how I thought it would work the enemies action would be tied up in running to keep up with you meaning you had infinite time to heal up to full.

Hi Welcome

That's from fire resist and DR on most of those.

He did specify that he needed to bypass the fire resistance. I don't think DR applies to spells. Just every psionic power has it mentioned that it applies.

Though this might of been errata somewhere that I missed.

[oslecamo]

Ideally, what one should do is to give the "mundanes" things that are THEIRS, AND ONLY THEIRS, that casters can't replicate without becoming less caster-y or jumping through a million hoops, so that each has the things ONLY THEY CAN DO. Maybe the Wizard gets to redefine reality and the Fighter gets to have an AMF that doesn't affect him or his items for a while. Maybe you give IHS to every mundane. Just make sure the casters can't do the same!

An excellent plan I must say. Magic being able to replicate well, everything, is bad. My improved monster classes project thus has a lot of custom abilities on the monsters to give an alternative to playing a polymorphed wizard. I'm also brewing an improved mundane crafting system that allows for powerfull special equipment that doesn't need and cannot be created by magic actually.

Of course, that can be done both by giving noncasters special things and banning spells that allow casters to replicate noncasters. Do we really need magic to turn you in a melee machine? Magic to grant you feats/huge skill bonus?

Some guys ... hate that... they really resent seeing the "bones" of a system and don't like the snarky approach of the authors, that doesn't make the authors less right.

The contrary is also true. Just because they're snarky doesn't mean they're right. Their vision of the D&D world is just as insane (not on the good sense) as the official stuff, with the authors failing at science, biology, economy and politics just as much (if not more in certain cases) than Wotc itself. Societies don't have abstract currencies that can be easily replicated? Like we don't use paper for money, and like our governments don't print more of it as it suits them. Replace gold by souls as money? Well thanks a lot, they're even easier to mass produce. What, dragons are still collecting gold? Why? It's shiny trash now. There can't be self-sustaining subterranean life whitout some magic gizmo? That's simply wrong (hint: volcanos spew heat and all kind of chemical substances).

And above all, the tome aproach completely misses the point that most DMs will simply have their campaign setings run on the rule of cool. Why does the kingdom have bear cavarly? How does the BBEG got giant robots? Nobody really cares. It's bear cavarly and giant robots!

Oh and one thing that I enjoy about the tome mechanically is this...
I'd like to be able to play a fighter 20. I want that to not suck or be punished for the system for trying it. In fact I want it to be AWESOME to do so. Same thing with the monk. . .
No other system seems to let me do that. They ask that I play a warblade or something. . . which ... makes me unhappy in some intagible way.

So just because Frank slapped "fighter" on a class completely diferent from the core fighter, you're allright with it, but the ToB dude just happens to have a diferent name and that makes you unhappy?

You're right that each group has their own playstyles, but if you're leting something as simple as a name stop you from playing what you want, then you're just admiting you have a favoritism for the tome rules and jumped on the "wotc everybody else sucks lulz!" bandwagon they promote.

Tome of Battle is the best noncaster support book I've ever seen, and most other people will agree with that (as you can see from all the "play a warblade" recomendations). It gives both power and versatility and multiclassing potential and extreme homebrew potential. There's, like, dozens of homebrew ToB schools out there, not to mention classes and prcs and other stuff.

[raith0]

In my oppinion the real fix for the problem of Magic being so much more powerfull than mundane means you have to bring in the nerfbat to bring it down a notch or two while bringing up the mundane to an equal level. and by that i mean we really need to bring tier 1 classess to a tier 2-3 level with tier 3 being the base and good play and optimization to take you to tier 2  while bringing all mundane to a tier 3 -4 level with tier 4 mundanes being those that are poorly played or not well planned out.  In my expierence if everyone is along the tier 3 level you actually need a party and it takes more time for the game to brake down into rocket tag.  I am also in agreement that we dont need spells to wizards and druids and clerics into melee gods.  now a group of classes similiar to duskblades with less bab and better/more spells to pick from in the vein of warmage/DN/beguilers im all for. 

[Lycanthromancer]

now a group of classes similiar to duskblades with less bab and better/more spells to pick from in the vein of warmage/DN/beguilers im all for. 

Psychic warrior, ho!

[Solo]

So just because Frank slapped "fighter" on a class completely diferent from the core fighter, you're allright with it, but the ToB dude just happens to have a diferent name and that makes you unhappy?

Perhaps he doesn't like maneuvers.

[dark_samuari]

Hi Welcome

Please do not start picking this up...

Oh, but it's quite fitting. Also, Solo = Win, and SorO = Fail. Follow the form, fool.

Oh and midnight = Win also.

But we are still clear, I am the King?

Of Dumbfucks? Absolutely.

Than your king asks you to leave his court and domain.

You are to be royally banished from our lands.

King of Dumbfucks Dumbfuck. That means you have no jurisdiction over actually worthwhile people. Therefore you fail, and should go fuck yourself with a rusty drill.

And as I put it, even small chances to fail add up. I didn't bring random bad luck into it, though it was somewhat implied.

Also Mr. KoD, be sure to share the drill with juton. He needs it.

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

[Midnight_v]

Ideally, what one should do is to give the "mundanes" things that are THEIRS, AND ONLY THEIRS, that casters can't replicate without becoming less caster-y or jumping through a million hoops, so that each has the things ONLY THEY CAN DO. Maybe the Wizard gets to redefine reality and the Fighter gets to have an AMF that doesn't affect him or his items for a while. Maybe you give IHS to every mundane. Just make sure the casters can't do the same!

Kuro this is a really cool thing in the background of Oslecam's and my discussion.
The tome basically does this. . . and you know what, people like him bitch about it constantly.  Foil, PrimalAssault and cleave magic (I think thats what the samurai power is called) basically give them something unique to do that MATTERS. . . and there you have it.  You and I have been doing this for years now so I know where you're coming from I do.
This next part is ... long and directed at oscl, I really don't agree with him on much. If you're interested... enjoy.
@ Oslecamo

The contrary is also true. Just because they're snarky doesn't mean they're right

No. They're pretty much snarky AND right, and it makes some people uncomfortable, but lets say this portion of the combo is over. The rightness of that stuff is better discussed with the gents at the gaming den who have more experience with it than me. Go there and talk to them about volcano's sustaining full ecosystems. Its a little further than I can be bothered to discuss... with you.

An excellent plan I must say. Magic being able to replicate well, everything, is bad. My improved monster classes project thus has a lot of custom abilities on the monsters to give an alternative to playing a polymorphed wizard. I'm also brewing an improved mundane crafting system that allows for powerfull special equipment that doesn't need and cannot be created by magic actually.

and of course the plug. Well when you show us this wonderful system I'm sure well be glad to fine tooth comb it and see if it sucks. but . . . the thing that bothers me about you and people who make statements simliar to yours is your hypocrisy.

So just because Frank slapped "fighter" on a class completely diferent from the core fighter, you're allright with it, but the ToB dude just happens to have a diferent name and that makes you unhappy?

I'm was tempted to just say fuck you, and leave it at that, but upon reading this a bit more... You're either ignorant or a liar. I'm thinking a little of both.
Everyone else look at the chasis of the fighter and then chasis of:
The Warblade and the Tome Fighter.
here's the hypocrisy:
 

Do we really need magic to turn you in a melee machine?

What the fuck do you think the whole "Blade Magic" thing is about? It just an alternate magic system.
The Tome fighter is still a fighter Feat selection and all. The major difference is that they've filled in those odd levels with things that don't suck.

Tome of Battle is the best noncaster support book I've ever seen, and most other people will agree with that (as you can see from all the "play a warblade" recomendations). 

So yeah I'd like to say I too have repeated quite a bit of "play a warblade" recant myself. . . that doesn't mean I don't understand how someone can logically say "I don't want to use the manuever system". I prefer a system by which the guy with all the feats actually works.

They could have put out the Warblade as the revised Fighter, and that might have ended all these talks completely but... The fighter is NOT the warblade there's a huge difference it takes a little of it and tapes weak reuseable encounter powers on top "via" 4th edition. Now I'm not saying that sucks, note, it really doesn't but I think the Tome Fighter is better without all the "Strike of a thosand stings!" and what not.
Which if you like that, hey thats cool, but that has sum total Zero to do with the guy who fights via, "I stab it in the face" because its not the same class.

You're right that each group has their own playstyles,

I know, thats why I made the statment.
 

but if you're leting something as simple as a name stop you from playing what you want,

It isn't.

then you're just admiting you have a favoritism for the tome rules and jumped on the "wotc everybody else sucks lulz!" bandwagon they promote.

Are you not paying attention, the Tome series actually IS my favorite 3.X descendant.
But wait... no you said favoritism, didn't you. I don't have a bias there.
I didn't "Jump on the band wagon", I actually played and reveiwed  the new systems 4.0, pathfinder, E20 etc... to see what they offered.
A priori *you may have to google that., A priori, I had no bias either way, infact I didn't like the tome in a few ways at first, till I really sat down and actually read it, then played it.
A posteriori, I found out that those options actually DO suck.
   3.5 Fails on many fronts, but ... I can myself compose a fucking symphony with the system if I need to. I own almost every book, I know feats and spells and monsters VERY well... but that required system mastery of several systems, and is a metric fucton of work. And still you can end up with bad results.
  4.0 fails by balancing down... makes it to where... well to me its just a very boring game. NO ONE gets to be Drizzt, or Raistlin.
(oh and basically thats who most people want to be when they design thier chars, I mean that level of storybook character. Some people wanna be grey mouser or hanzo hattori too, but the poit is they want to not suck and look cool while doing it.)
Paizo... just fails in trying to do what you suggest. Clipping off the top and rasing at the bottom.
Why? Because like you they're too chicken shit to give non casters shit that MATTERS in terms of the game.
They didn't know where the fucking balance point was supposed to be to begin with. Fucking pathfinder improved trip... wtf. 
 So don't be moronic and suggest to me that I'm caught up on the "NAME" of something or try to demean me in anyway at all. I've actually DONE the leg work with the most popular systems and the tome appeals to me the most.
In brief,
Frankly I posit that you feel the way you do because your research base in 3.X is less than mine.
Thats the most polite of what I gather from you based on how you present your argument, really.
That and you hate the tomes (mostly cause of snark) If you think they fail at anything biology, socioecnomically...etc.. here's the link to where people talk about the integrity of that stuff.
Post that there we can see if your arguments have merit.
http://tgdmb.com/viewforum.php?f=1

[lans]

So just because Frank slapped "fighter" on a class completely diferent from the core fighter, you're allright with it, but the ToB dude just happens to have a diferent name and that makes you unhappy?

Tome Fighter is mechanically the PHB Fighter++. It gives the same mechanics as it with more.  While the Warblade is flavor fully the same but mechanically different.

Tome of Battle is the best noncaster support book I've ever seen, and most other people will agree with that

I like Magic of Incarnum better.

[Kuroimaken]

Oslecamo, it's not that simple. As I believe I pointed out with a real experience example, taking the nerfbat to the casters doesn't solve the problem, and in fact CREATES more issues than it solves.

Let me ask you this: suppose archers were in the position casters are now in, as in Tier 1. The Fighter's dinky greatsword doesn't do squat but a bow and arrow or a crossbow get the same job done in a single shot. Further suppose that the problem is not binary in that it's not like bows/crossbows themselves are broken, but it's the way they are used and the edge they grant, in that EVERY problem can be solved with bow and arrow/crossbow.

Would you nerf bows? And if so, how?

The problem with spells isn't binary. If we were to compare them to weapons, it wouldn't be a satellite laser, it would be a laser swiss army knife. Each individual tool is great for the situation it calls for. But if you remove the tools, all you're left with is a hilt.

If you give mundanes stuff to do that's UNIQUE TO THEM and that casters can't replicate with magic, them the fact that casters can do magic suddenly becomes a lot less troublesome. If, for example, a rogue needs only his fingertips and the world-famous secret rogue knock to open a door without setting off multiple traps and in complete silence, suddenly the wizard with knock doesn't sound so awesome anymore. Or if he can run past enemies while invisible as an Ex ability from an early level without having to invest in multiple PrCs/magical gear/whathaveyou and have them all save-or-die at the end of his sprint, he gets oodles of style points over the Wizard using Invisibility, multiple Fingers of Death and several rounds to do something SIMILAR, but not as awesome.

[Lycanthromancer]

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

He's not so much of a thrallherd as a thrallchivvy. He gives thralls to other people.

And I nominate dark_samurai to king, 'cuz I know he'll nominate me for emperor.

Right, dark_samurai?

[Kuroimaken]

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

He's not so much of a thrallherd as a thrallchivvy. He gives thralls to other people.

And I nominate dark_samurai to king, 'cuz I know he'll nominate me for emperor.

Right, dark_samurai?

Dark_samuari.

Yes, he's actually called me out on his mispelling once.

[Lycanthromancer]

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

He's not so much of a thrallherd as a thrallchivvy. He gives thralls to other people.

And I nominate dark_samurai to king, 'cuz I know he'll nominate me for emperor.

Right, dark_samurai?

Dark_samuari.

Yes, he's actually called me out on his mispelling once.

Crap. All those ballots i filled out means we now have a king named dark_samurai. Who is this impostor!?

[dark_samuari]

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

He's not so much of a thrallherd as a thrallchivvy. He gives thralls to other people.

And I nominate dark_samurai to king, 'cuz I know he'll nominate me for emperor.

Right, dark_samurai?

*Blushes* Oh my!

[veekie]

I actually had a DM who fucked up with uberchargers by diminishing PA multipliers and the amount of buffs you were allowed to have on you at any given time. Then his NPCs would violate that specific houserule by cheating with an in-game solution. At which point the PLAYERS would gain access to the same solution, and he would be sad and make the solution not work anymore. It was a fucking nightmare.

My point is that both aspects bring the game down. You can buff a "mundane" to have similar levels of awesome for SOME things like the casters, which is basically giving the "mundanes" the caster's tricks. (This is typically the way "mundanes" go up in power too, not counting things like ubercharging.) You'll basically blur the line, though. You can take a nerfbat to casters, but once the players start encountering shit you needed the pre-nerfbat stuff for, they're utterly FUCKED. You could try doing BOTH things, and the party might even actually survive, but they probably won't win. There is no definitive answer to this.

Ideally, what one should do is to give the "mundanes" things that are THEIRS, AND ONLY THEIRS, that casters can't replicate without becoming less caster-y or jumping through a million hoops, so that each has the things ONLY THEY CAN DO. Maybe the Wizard gets to redefine reality and the Fighter gets to have an AMF that doesn't affect him or his items for a while. Maybe you give IHS to every mundane. Just make sure the casters can't do the same!

For this, I think it comes down to vertical versus horizontal power.
Mundanes have plenty of vertical power, properly optimized, and I DO think ubercharging could do with some taming(but not before the monsters are adjusted).
The problem is that when improving a mundane class, adding more vertical power doesn't really solve anything except for cases like Monk, which don't even meet minimum function.
Horizontal power, or breadth of situations that can be covered is what casters excel at(and where the rogue makes a decent runner up. It's skills are needed on a frequency and predictability not well suited for short duration magic).
Nerfing individual spells tend to target vertical power as well, but some spells(polymorph, illusions, telekinesis mind control) are extremely potent horizontally.
Wheras others are nasty vertically(Divine Power, Glitterdust(and other save or lose effects)).

Vertical Strong, Horizontal Strong: Clerics, Druids, Wizards. If theres a problem they can't overcome by main force, theres always some angle to attack it by. Horizontal strength can come in battle flexibility(Can cast all spells on list at will> Can cast all known spells at will > Can  ready all spells on list at will > Can ready all known spells at will > One set of known spells) modified by breadth of list and by expandability(Rainbow Servant, Extra Spell, Expanded Knowledge, Archivist, Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite).

Vertical Strong, Horizontal Weak:  Ubercharging melee, Frenzied Berserkers, ToB, optimized melee in general. They're goddamn fantastic at solving one problem(usually killing something to bits) but are drawers at anything else.

Vertical Weak, Horizontal Strong: Most of the T3 themed spontaneous casters sit here, as does rogues(to a lesser degree). They can cover a variety of situations and are useful in general, but winning a FIGHT now, might be a tad tricky. Psywars could be considered to be here as well, though they have decent vertical power.

Vertical Weak, Horizontal Weak: Aka No redeeming features. Monk, Ninja, etc are fairly useless for anything except a few specialized scenarios, and they're only mediocre at those.

[raith0]

now a group of classes similiar to duskblades with less bab and better/more spells to pick from in the vein of warmage/DN/beguilers im all for. 

Psychic warrior, ho!

yes i know of the pyschic warrior,  and yes hes one but i was referring to expanding on that type of base for a character.