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Author Topic: Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?  (Read 25832 times)
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #460 on: January 09, 2011, 09:33:36 PM »

So your solution to making 3.5 a more balanced, fun experience out of the box is, "Fuck you, spend years learning how to play on the internet like we all did"?
Yes. And he'll have to use a 56k modem to do it so the electricity travels uphill both ways.
In the snow.

Barefoot.
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Lycanthromancer
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« Reply #461 on: January 09, 2011, 09:34:08 PM »

So your solution to making 3.5 a more balanced, fun experience out of the box is, "Fuck you, spend years learning how to play on the internet like we all did"?
Yes. And he'll have to use a 56k modem to do it so the electricity travels uphill both ways.
In the snow.

Barefoot.
Wearing barbed wire for traction.
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lans
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« Reply #462 on: January 09, 2011, 09:39:43 PM »


Quote
Abilities that automatically shut down a wide range of abilities and peoples should be changed so its not automatic.
If necessary the ability can also be boosted so that its more of a trade than a nerf.
How would you affect fog cloud, stinking cloud, grease? The suggestion reminds me of pathfinder in some way.

Grease, I would roll balance into other skills and call it acrobatics.
Fog Cloud is fine as it just halves movement.
Solid Fog-Maybe reducing movement to 1/4? Maybe, raise the area so it has the same effect on people with normal speed.
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #463 on: January 09, 2011, 09:50:03 PM »


People are still using the fighter as baseline  Bang Head. The King of AC my ass ...

http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=987.html

Seriously, maybe its only CO'ers who ever need to optimise. Maybe everyone else plays a different D&D?
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #464 on: January 09, 2011, 09:50:58 PM »


People are still using the fighter as baseline  Bang Head. The King of AC my ass ...

http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=987.html

Seriously, maybe its only CO'ers who ever need to optimise. Maybe everyone else plays a different D&D?
He's trying to optimize.

He just sucks at it.
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« Reply #465 on: January 09, 2011, 10:05:44 PM »


OH GOD WHAT DID I JUST READ
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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #466 on: January 09, 2011, 10:10:26 PM »


Yeah  Sad From what I can tell they aren't stupid, they just have a radically different idea of D&D than we do. As in, not playing the same game dissonance level here.

Personally, I run my games a lot like KJ Parkers world. People are stupid. And do stupid shit. And die horribly unless they're lucky (aka PCs) or the other guy is just so flabberghasted by the stupid that he freezes. But its still recognisably D&D. You can play a fighter but if you're not OP'ed you're a dead weight/glass cannon in combat. I just don't get their paradigm  Confused.
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Kuroimaken
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« Reply #467 on: January 09, 2011, 10:12:28 PM »


I actually stopped after the second line because the stupid hurt my brain.
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« Reply #468 on: January 09, 2011, 10:14:16 PM »

Right there with you.. looked and went   Twitch 
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« Reply #469 on: January 09, 2011, 10:29:28 PM »

well, if you'd have made it half way down the page, blood would have surely shot from your eyes; and your head may well have exploded before you made it to the end of the page.

wow ... and I thought that maybe I was playing a different game.  these guys are completely delusional.
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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #470 on: January 09, 2011, 10:41:19 PM »

Please, take it to a different thread.  We've had enough "bitch about silliness in other forums" for the quarter already.
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« Reply #471 on: January 09, 2011, 10:43:40 PM »

How would you affect fog cloud, stinking cloud, grease? The suggestion reminds me of pathfinder in some way.
You know, those guys have their heart in the right place.
Its just that their head's in their ass.

In any case, you can sort the problem spells into several layers, each sort takes it's own solution.
Open Ended solutions: Polymorph, Planar Binding, Shadow Conjuration, Wish. If theres a problem you can't solve with one, you probably can't solve it, period. These spells need to be split up or restricted in breadth, e.g. making Polymorph allow you to pick from a predefined list of special abilities you can copy with it.

Irresistable Forces: Solid Fog,  Walls of Force, Wings of Cover,  basically you can't do anything about these spells unless you have their specific(and almost always magical) solutions. These either need ways to resist their effects or for ways to bypass/demolish them to become more common.

Sidelong attack: Grease, Illusions, these just take unexpected approaches. Not really a problem.

X or Lose: Less a problem with the spells and more a problem with the concept to begin with. Don't touch these unless they fall under one of the other effects or you're fixing the whole save or lose business while you're at it.

Bigger Numbers Than You : Polymorph(again), Divine Power, and to a lesser degree the Hours duration stat buff spells. These basically give you bigger numbers than you should have for the level or else inflate wealth by giving you essentially staple buff items for free. Other than Polymorph(hello Hydra) and Persisted spells, this is more a case of getting mundanes the same size of numbers.

Extra Actions: Do I really need to explain these?

Trap spells: Yes, spells can be messed up in the other direction too. These are the Hold Portals(and to a lesser degree, Lightning Bolt and direct damage in general) of the world. Maybe give some of these out for free or something.

edit: my god this thread moves fast.
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« Reply #472 on: January 09, 2011, 10:48:32 PM »

Samurai should also be able to honor things to death. With honor.

And prepare sushi! To kill someone!
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Littha
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« Reply #473 on: January 09, 2011, 10:49:16 PM »

Twitch
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Bozwevial
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« Reply #474 on: January 09, 2011, 10:58:30 PM »

Quote from: Some guy
Doesn't balanced imply that no matter what I take, I sould be roughly equivilant to other characters in general effectiveness?

I think this is the big underlying myth we need to dispel.
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wotmaniac
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« Reply #475 on: January 09, 2011, 11:05:00 PM »

Please, take it to a different thread.  We've had enough "bitch about silliness in other forums" for the quarter already.
and it only took 18 replies before there was anything resembling a proper response. No
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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Gods_Trick
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« Reply #476 on: January 09, 2011, 11:09:20 PM »


Whoah   Twitch

Well ... as long as your having fun I guess. Anyway, underpowered mundanes .... do out of the box gishes like rangers, duskblades and paladins count as mundane? Cause they certainly aren't overpowered.
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wotmaniac
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« Reply #477 on: January 09, 2011, 11:22:37 PM »


Whoah   Twitch

Well ... as long as your having fun I guess. Anyway, underpowered mundanes .... do out of the box gishes like rangers, duskblades and paladins count as mundane? Cause they certainly aren't overpowered.
but it does illustrate the notion of "must have spells/magic to compete".
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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions
Report any wrongs I have done here.
Kuroimaken
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« Reply #478 on: January 10, 2011, 12:12:35 AM »


Whoah   Twitch

Well ... as long as your having fun I guess. Anyway, underpowered mundanes .... do out of the box gishes like rangers, duskblades and paladins count as mundane? Cause they certainly aren't overpowered.
but it does illustrate the notion of "must have spells/magic to compete".

Even so they tend not to compete very well. Well, the paladin anyway. The ranger... can get there, but it takes some doing. (I actually like the Ranger as a more combat-capable rogue... except without a primary source of damage.)
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« Reply #479 on: January 10, 2011, 12:15:31 AM »

Then let them have what they want and trust cognitive dissonance to do the work of making them happy for you. Problem solved, your welcome.
So your solution to making 3.5 a more balanced, fun experience out of the box is, "Fuck you, spend years learning how to play on the internet like we all did"?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you manage to make a "more balanced, fun experience out of the box" are you going to publish it? are people who haven't spent years on the net even going to know of your new system? If not and it really is just for us, then why not just use the better classes and some optomization?
I know it's lame quoting my self, but I wanted to see what people reacon. I'm just saying that maybe mundanes are fine cause you can optomise them and perhaps it's just some of the caster stuff that needs to be fixed.
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