Underpowered Mundanes or Overpowered Magic - Which is worse?

[oslecamo]

I actually had a DM who fucked up with uberchargers by diminishing PA multipliers and the amount of buffs you were allowed to have on you at any given time. Then his NPCs would violate that specific houserule by cheating with an in-game solution. At which point the PLAYERS would gain access to the same solution, and he would be sad and make the solution not work anymore. It was a fucking nightmare.

My point is that both aspects bring the game down. You can buff a "mundane" to have similar levels of awesome for SOME things like the casters, which is basically giving the "mundanes" the caster's tricks. (This is typically the way "mundanes" go up in power too, not counting things like ubercharging.) You'll basically blur the line, though. You can take a nerfbat to casters, but once the players start encountering shit you needed the pre-nerfbat stuff for, they're utterly FUCKED. You could try doing BOTH things, and the party might even actually survive, but they probably won't win. There is no definitive answer to this.

Ideally, what one should do is to give the "mundanes" things that are THEIRS, AND ONLY THEIRS, that casters can't replicate without becoming less caster-y or jumping through a million hoops, so that each has the things ONLY THEY CAN DO. Maybe the Wizard gets to redefine reality and the Fighter gets to have an AMF that doesn't affect him or his items for a while. Maybe you give IHS to every mundane. Just make sure the casters can't do the same!

For this, I think it comes down to vertical versus horizontal power.
Mundanes have plenty of vertical power, properly optimized, and I DO think ubercharging could do with some taming(but not before the monsters are adjusted).
The problem is that when improving a mundane class, adding more vertical power doesn't really solve anything except for cases like Monk, which don't even meet minimum function.
Horizontal power, or breadth of situations that can be covered is what casters excel at(and where the rogue makes a decent runner up. It's skills are needed on a frequency and predictability not well suited for short duration magic).
Nerfing individual spells tend to target vertical power as well, but some spells(polymorph, illusions, telekinesis mind control) are extremely potent horizontally.
Wheras others are nasty vertically(Divine Power, Glitterdust(and other save or lose effects)).

I believe Kuroimaken was supporting just that. There's loads and loads of spells out there, and the strongest casters are those who can cherry pick from a massive list whatever they fancy. The spells out there easily outnumber all  skill usages and feats printed put togheter.

So hell yeah, noncasters also need huge lists of choices from them to pick from. Like ToB schools.

Prime32 for example has a thread of "things you should be able to do while raging", with effects such as deafening your oponent with your screams, or growing in size,or your body literally catching fire to set your oponents aflame. I say, make lots of such effects, divide them in growing levels of power, allow the barbarian to pick one every level (but only a few active at the same time), increase the number of rages per day, and then suddenly the barbarian also has "horizontal power" as well or whatever you call it. Flying oponent? Enter rage and activate super-jump mode, or boulder-throwing mode! Invisible oponent? Rage and activate bloodlust mode that allows you to detect your oponent's presence! Spellcaster? Magic-shattering mode!

And, like maneuvers, make sure those abilities can't be easily replicated by spells.

The psywarrior already kinda does that by having a power list to pick from, but honestly, he's a psionic gish, with PP and everything, not really mundane.

[Midnight_v]

 Funny thing, I know lycanthro is pretty hardcore with psywar info. I also know that a lot of the things that make the psywar a solide tier 3 class, would get nerfed by that guy up there who suggested in another thread that the game would be fixed if they banned things like Divine Power.
 I don't have a problem with the suggestions so much as the mindset that some of these guys use.
Ooooh I have an anlogy ready BG's?

Back in communism in Eastern Europe there was this fellow who went to the local Commisar and says “You know, my neighbor has a cow, and I don't and we're supposed to be collectivized, I find this unfair comrade"
 So the Commissar says to the man  “Oh, so you  are telling me this because you want a cow, too?!”
The man says said, “No. Comrade I'd like you to shoot his cow.
 
Thats my problem with the ban to equality solution. There are very few things that need to go, but the funny thing is the assholes asking us to ban shit normally don't even know what that is typically, Imean in the what makes clerics uber this "Osle" guys like "Lets ban divine power...  and that path if successful ends in 4th if it fails ends in Pathfinder. So no...  before you make any other moves make sure the warrior types can shore up what missing.

Oh and lastly ... while off topic. . . Skills. Skills was the other thing that the tome does a really good job at. That any serious revision will need to redo also. Cause well Fighters aren't the only one that feel small in the pants... rogues do to honestly. So while some people will say "ban knock"   (cause then you of course have to ban summoned monkeys too eventually)  I figure it'd be better to make skills work to do relavant things compared to spells.
 Here's something I was looking at today.

  

Some Skills Don’t Work Like They Should[/b][/size]
While the existence of magic that supersedes them makes some skills underpowered, other skills do things
that are stupid, broken, or both. Some of these stupidities came from the introduction of rules that don’t
make sense in 3.5. I’m going to make some clarifications and revisions, while revisiting changes mentioned in
Frank’s and K’s works. I’m not, however, going to try to balance the skills against each other.
One of the important themes of the next section is that many skills don’t do level-appropriate things. Skill
actions that imitate 1st- or 2nd- level spells require checks against DCs so high that only a specialized 40th
level character could even theoretically meet them. This is ridiculous, and so many of the DCs need reduction.
Many of these changes subsume both epic feats and epic skill checks. This is fine: skilled characters need
the help to keep up with casters. If an epic ability isn’t mentioned, you may assume it has the same DC as
usual.
Escape ArtistThe DCs for some uses of Escape Artist are just too high: a 7th-level character with a decent Dex bonus, say
+5, has only a +15 Escape Artist check, which is only adequate to escape masterwork manacles when taking
20. However, dimension door, available to casters at the same level, is an automatic escape from masterwork
manacles that takes almost no time. I suggest the following revised DCs for Escape Artist:
 Tight space: 20
 Manacles: 25
 Masterwork manacles: 30
 Extremely tight space: 35
Other DCs remain as listed. This makes Escape Artist a little more useful in the earlier parts of the game.

and really thats what the shits all about. a brief example of a piece of the overall fixes. There's also feats that makes skills really good because those feats get better with your skill ranks.
example

Many-Faced [Skill]
You change identities so often even you don’t remember
what you look like anymore.
Disguise ranks:
0: You gain +3 to your Disguise checks.
4: When creating a disguise, you roll twice and take
the better result.
9: You can use Nystul’s magic aura as a spell-like
ability at will, with a caster level equal to your
character level and a save DC of 10 + 1=2 your character
level + your Cha modifier.
14: You can create a disguise as a full-round action,
but you take a -10 penalty to your Disguise check.
You can’t be under direct observation while doing
this, but you can use Bluff to create a diversion to
allow you to change guises, as for the Hide skill.
19: You can choose an appearance that anyone viewing
you with scrying or other divination magic sees
instead of your ”real” appearance. Even someone
who benefits from true seeing must succeed on a
caster level check (DC 11 + your ranks in Disguise)
to penetrate the illusion  

That is really the type of things that are needed to let skill guys play the game but... also you have to do things to limit the skill bonuses from items. .. but they totally have done that as well. Still for whatever reason people hate it when you do that shit. It boggles the mind

EDIT:

Invisible oponent? Rage and activate bloodlust mode that allows you to detect your oponent's presence! Spellcaster? Magic-shattering mode!

From the guy that that can live without the tome changes... of course.

[Solo]

Oscalemo, what a surprise to see you here. I didn't expect to meet you after leaving GitP.

Let me be the first to say hi, welcome.

Also, for the Emperor.

[Midnight_v]

Oscalemo, what a surprise to see you here. I didn't expect to meet you after leaving GitP.

Let me be the first to say hi, welcome.

Also, for the Emperor.

 

[Gods_Trick]

I like this meme: For the Emperor!

[Midnight_v]

Is that a meme? It should be. What does that mean?

[dark_samuari]

I like this meme: For the Emperor!

Does it mean we can start posting quotes & pictures from Warhammer 40k?

Because yes...

[Kuroimaken]

I like that Many Faces Feat. I'd only adjust the DC for the CL check to 11+check result instead, so it's really hard for a cleric/wizard/etc. to pierce. Or 5+ check result.

[Sunic_Flames]

And? They're still faster than you.

Are they twice as fast? Because if their not then they can't attack, and are wasting their action while 3 other characters are trying to kill them.

If one of the characters has a draconic aura the party can heal up to half while taking no actions other than running. Which at lower levels is enough to eat a full attack  and not die. Usually.

Not hard to find an enemy with a 40 foot move. Only a little harder to find 60. And it only takes once, maybe twice.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that dwarves and heavy armor are bad choices, and that rat people are good choices.

Dwarves are one of the rare few good races, and humans can't run either, so yeah.

Running isn't good very often, but maybe the characters get lucky that 1% failure rate happens against a CR 20 tree thing?

And what CR 20 tree thing would that be?

I agree that running away will not work against anybody with competent ranged attacks, and that my version of competent might be considered inept to you.

Even weak ranged attacks can kill you before you escape, so it doesn't much matter.

Well, if running worked how I thought it would work the enemies action would be tied up in running to keep up with you meaning you had infinite time to heal up to full.

No, they're getting two swings a round every round. If they have Pounce, they get a full auto attack + 1 a round every round.

He did specify that he needed to bypass the fire resistance. I don't think DR applies to spells. Just every psionic power has it mentioned that it applies.

Though this might of been errata somewhere that I missed.

Meteor Swarm = fire and BLUDGEONING. Presumably, the Bludgeoning is also Magic. It is not however: Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Cold Iron, Silver...

Hi Welcome

Please do not start picking this up...

Oh, but it's quite fitting. Also, Solo = Win, and SorO = Fail. Follow the form, fool.

Oh and midnight = Win also.

But we are still clear, I am the King?

Of Dumbfucks? Absolutely.

Than your king asks you to leave his court and domain.

You are to be royally banished from our lands.

King of Dumbfucks Dumbfuck. That means you have no jurisdiction over actually worthwhile people. Therefore you fail, and should go fuck yourself with a rusty drill.

And as I put it, even small chances to fail add up. I didn't bring random bad luck into it, though it was somewhat implied.

Also Mr. KoD, be sure to share the drill with juton. He needs it.

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

Hi Welcome

If everyone here becomes an abomination like you, then there is but one solution.



However, despite my contempt for most people, I still believe people are more intelligent than you are giving them credit for by insulting the entire board at once. Of course not all are, so feel free to do my job for me by being my idiot filter. You are the Korthos Army of BG. Or the Helper's Guild, if you prefer.

[skydragonknight]

*sings "Sunic flames~! Some just die while others feel the pain!"*

[Sunic_Flames]

Oscalemo, what a surprise to see you here. I didn't expect to meet you after leaving GitP.

Let me be the first to say Hi Welcome

Also, for the Emperor.

Fixed.

[Sunic_Flames]

*sings "Sunic flames! Some just die while others feel the pain!"*

[skydragonknight]

It's my new theme song for you, to the tune of Chocolate Rain.

[lans]

Running isn't good very often, but maybe the characters get lucky that 1% failure rate happens against a CR 20 tree thing?

And what CR 20 tree thing would that be?

Orcwort

I agree that running away will not work against anybody with competent ranged attacks, and that my version of competent might be considered inept to you.

Even weak ranged attacks can kill you before you escape, so it doesn't much matter.

Maybe, somethings have very weak ranged attacks, that have short ranges. But I haven't really looked at it.

Well, if running worked how I thought it would work the enemies action would be tied up in running to keep up with you meaning you had infinite time to heal up to full.

No, they're getting two swings a round every round. If they have Pounce, they get a full auto attack + 1 a round every round.

Your wrong here. Charging is only 2x movement, while running is 4x.  They get 1 attack in, unless they have twice the movement that you have.

He did specify that he needed to bypass the fire resistance. I don't think DR applies to spells. Just every psionic power has it mentioned that it applies.

Though this might of been errata somewhere that I missed.

Meteor Swarm = fire and BLUDGEONING. Presumably, the Bludgeoning is also Magic. It is not however: Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Cold Iron, Silver...

I'm still pretty sure that DR doesn't apply to spells unless it specify that is does.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Meteor Swarm = fire and BLUDGEONING. Presumably, the Bludgeoning is also Magic. It is not however: Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic, Cold Iron, Silver...

Doesn't matter.  Spells are never susceptible to DR unless they explicitly say they are.  

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

Seriously, Sunic, lt's one of the best examples of why WotC hates psionics.

[Sunic_Flames]

Running isn't good very often, but maybe the characters get lucky that 1% failure rate happens against a CR 20 tree thing?

And what CR 20 tree thing would that be?

Orcwort

So, the Tarrasque of the plant kingdom?

Your wrong here. Charging is only 2x movement, while running is 4x.  They get 1 attack in, unless they have twice the movement that you have.

Where's that Attack of Opportunity strip?

Anyways, even if DR does not apply, small amounts of fire resistance, you know the most common kind still cuts the damage down to near nothing. And anyone smart enough to optimize blasting at all is smart enough to use something other than the worst possible base for blasting.

[zugschef]

Anyways, even if DR does not apply, small amounts of fire resistance, you know the most common kind still cuts the damage down to near nothing. And anyone smart enough to optimize blasting at all is smart enough to use something other than the worst possible base for blasting.

an unseen seer with searing spell and persisted hunter's eye can sneak with it... if you go for blasting, that's pretty good.

[Senevri]

Anyways, even if DR does not apply, small amounts of fire resistance, you know the most common kind still cuts the damage down to near nothing. And anyone smart enough to optimize blasting at all is smart enough to use something other than the worst possible base for blasting.

Optimize blasting? All it takes to make MS work is 'hey, archmages are cool! elemental mastery is neat!' and the character could otherwise blown every other feat on crafting...

People DO optimize, but there's a difference between moderate and obvious optimization, and putting all your eggs in one basket.

*edit* I admit, it does somewhat break MY suspension of disbelief too, that something completely non-magical conjured by magic still seems to bypass DR.

[dark_samuari]

Hi Welcome

Please do not start picking this up...

Oh, but it's quite fitting. Also, Solo = Win, and SorO = Fail. Follow the form, fool.

Oh and midnight = Win also.

But we are still clear, I am the King?

Of Dumbfucks? Absolutely.

Than your king asks you to leave his court and domain.

You are to be royally banished from our lands.

King of Dumbfucks Dumbfuck. That means you have no jurisdiction over actually worthwhile people. Therefore you fail, and should go fuck yourself with a rusty drill.

And as I put it, even small chances to fail add up. I didn't bring random bad luck into it, though it was somewhat implied.

Also Mr. KoD, be sure to share the drill with juton. He needs it.

Oh don't worry because eventually you will label everyone an idiot or moron. Eventually you will turn on everyone in this community and classify them as a fool, and at that point they will be in my kingdom. You are already doing a fair job of recruiting me some cohorts and soon enough there will only be the fools and you.

I await when you isolate yourself within this community.

Hi Welcome

If everyone here becomes an abomination like you, then there is but one solution.

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/036/935/original/nuke-it-from-orbit.jpg?1264122230

However, despite my contempt for most people, I still believe people are more intelligent than you are giving them credit for by insulting the entire board at once. Of course not all are, so feel free to do my job for me by being my idiot filter. You are the Korthos Army of BG. Or the Helper's Guild, if you prefer.

So I am now a king, a general and a guild master?

Promotion Hey....!

Sunic, good buddy oh pal, tell me what are your favorite classes to play?

[raith0]

and yes playing the god caster is the smartest way to play a wizard, but sometimes blasting is a lot of fun to do.  dont believe me just ask kell

sorry for the tangent