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Amechra
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« on: December 22, 2010, 07:19:17 PM » |
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Alright, here is the setup:
1. You have a power, right? Let's use Astral Construct for this example.
2. Take Linked Power as a feat as soon as you can. Now Metapower that sucker to our chosen power, also known as Astral Construct.
3. Manifest Astral Construct; it auto-activates Linked Power, which you then use to link... Astral Construct, which is also so linked, and so on and so forth.
4. Now, you should have two psionic focuses at max; I seem to remember a way to get a third, but that is inconsequential at the moment.
5. Now, let's say you manifest like so: Astral Construct->Astral Construct->Astral Construct. Cost to manifest is: 1pp+1pp+3pp-2pp-2pp=1pp and two psionic focuses. So, in other words, you get 3 constructs, two at level 1 and one at level 2 for the price of a single 1st level construct.
Now, that's just to demonstrate the basic concept; alright, now let's imagine an Ardent with that ACF that lets you manifest metapsionic'd powers from one of your dominant mantles without the use of a Psionic focus...
I'm seeing Ardent 10/Constructor 10, just plain churning out millions of constructs for almost no cost; In fact, if you keep it to a pattern of 1->3->1->3->1->3->1->..., you should get infinite astral constructs...
for. ONE. POWER. POINT.
Powerful? Probably not. Funny as hell? Kinda. Cost Effective? HELL YEAH!!!!
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Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn." Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn." Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn." Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me." On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me. probably over on "Off-topic". might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post. This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". |
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 07:33:33 PM » |
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I do not think it means does what you think it means does.
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It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.
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Amechra
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 07:36:30 PM » |
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Please explain: Linked Power doesn't deny you use of any metapsionics on the linked power, that I know of, and Metapower makes the power automatically affected by the metapsionic feat of your choice.
So, where did my thinking go crazy?
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Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn." Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn." Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn." Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me." On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me. probably over on "Off-topic". might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post. This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu". |
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skydragonknight
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 08:06:47 PM » |
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Classic doesn't say I can't vs. doesn't say I can. See the "10 Rules of Practical Optimization".
I lean towards "you can't" because you can't have an Empowered Empowered Fireball or two instances of any other metamagic/metapower, so why should you be able to have two instances of Linked Power in the same manifesting? If it's an exception, then it should say as much imho.
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It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.
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Saeomon
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
Posts: 292
A real rules lawyer
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 08:24:27 PM » |
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Classic doesn't say I can't vs. doesn't say I can. See the "10 Rules of Practical Optimization".
I lean towards "you can't" because you can't have an Empowered Empowered Fireball or two instances of any other metamagic/metapower, so why should you be able to have two instances of Linked Power in the same manifesting? If it's an exception, then it should say as much imho.
Unlike Metamagic feats, you can apply the same Metapsionic feat to a single manifestation multiple times. As many times as you have psionic foci. For reference purposes, see the "Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell" subsection of the Metamagic Feats section of this page, and then compare it to the Metapsionic Feats section of this page. Simply put, there is no equivalent restriction on multiple Metapsionic feats on a power in that section. This is why the Dominant Ideal ACF for Ardents (which is what Amechra was referring to) is broken. By RAW, you could take a power that does variable, numeric damage, use the Metapower feat to permanently modify it with the Empower Power feat, and do infinite damage. Do it with Swarm of Crystals and they don't even get a save, and SR/PR won't help 'em. |
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 08:31:38 PM by Saeomon »
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bearchucks
Ring-Tailed Lemur
Posts: 80
Being Batman...with chainsaw bearchucks
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2010, 09:20:04 PM » |
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So wait...psionics ARE broken. Just like the rest of 3.5.  |
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PlzBreakMyCampaign
Hong Kong
Posts: 1373
Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 09:30:20 PM » |
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So wait...psionics ARE broken. Just like the rest of 3.5. It's casting. No one said you can't do imba things with psionics, only that it is relatively more balanced than spells (probably through lack of material tho...) and yup broken interpretation |
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed. And healed. Don't forget that. Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle. Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms. More Funny than HumbleYour a shifter... you have all you ever need. It blows MoMF out of the water But if your greedy for more [ Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL. Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want. PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r |
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Saeomon
That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
Posts: 292
A real rules lawyer
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 09:44:52 PM » |
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So wait...psionics ARE broken. Just like the rest of 3.5. It's casting. No one said you can't do imba things with psionics, only that it is relatively more balanced than spells (probably through lack of material tho...) and yup broken interpretation Heh...for the record, I'd never allow what I described into a campaign. :-) |
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 02:34:33 AM » |
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Classic doesn't say I can't vs. doesn't say I can. See the "10 Rules of Practical Optimization".
I lean towards "you can't" because you can't have an Empowered Empowered Fireball or two instances of any other metamagic/metapower, so why should you be able to have two instances of Linked Power in the same manifesting? If it's an exception, then it should say as much imho.
Unlike Metamagic feats, you can apply the same Metapsionic feat to a single manifestation multiple times. As many times as you have psionic foci. For reference purposes, see the "Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell" subsection of the Metamagic Feats section of this page, and then compare it to the Metapsionic Feats section of this page. Simply put, there is no equivalent restriction on multiple Metapsionic feats on a power in that section. This is why the Dominant Ideal ACF for Ardents (which is what Amechra was referring to) is broken. By RAW, you could take a power that does variable, numeric damage, use the Metapower feat to permanently modify it with the Empower Power feat, and do infinite damage. Do it with Swarm of Crystals and they don't even get a save, and SR/PR won't help 'em. Unlike metamagic feats, metapsionic feats don't have text that allows you to apply multiple metapsionic feats to the same power. So there isn't anything explicitly allowing you to have a burrowing chain power, for example. |
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CantripN
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 03:10:16 AM » |
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Is there any DM here that allows stacking of the same Metapsionic feats, and who doesn't allow for several different ones to be used at once? Doubt it. You'd need multiple Focus, but sure. Yes, Focus, not Foci.
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Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.
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carnivore
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 09:13:22 AM » |
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you can stack different Metapsionic Feats... but you must expend a Separate Foci for each metapsionic Feat ..... thus normally you will have one psionic Focus, an Additional Foci for psicrystal Containment, possibly one more for a Legacy Weapon, maybe one additional if you had a +5 enhancement bonded Weapon from Psychic Weapon master. that would be 4 Focus max Pre-EPIC  |
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 02:53:46 PM » |
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Metapower and Linked Power are from CPsi. CPsi says you can't have more than 1 astral construct. |
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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lianightdemon
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 196
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 03:45:48 PM » |
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many people ignore that though, cause it sucks
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PhaedrusXY
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 04:06:57 PM » |
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many people ignore that though, cause it sucks
Yeah, but we're talking RAW here, obviously. If you're going to argue something works by the rules, you can't just pick and choose which rules to follow and ignore other ones. |
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?
Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 04:10:55 PM » |
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... but during Christmas you can, please Santa  |
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lianightdemon
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 196
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 04:16:50 PM » |
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Santa is a creepy old fat guy that watches you while you sleep, breaks into your house, eats your food, and then leaves a present under your tree. You don't need that.
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SorO_Lost
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 04:22:36 PM » |
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Hellbreaker's HiPS-like ability doesn't say you can't hide in your shadow.
Genesis doesn't say you can't alter the time trait.
Fighter doesn't say you don't get epic spells.
Eer... This trick seems to be an equal par with some other TO stuff.
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Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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lianightdemon
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
Posts: 196
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2010, 04:29:13 PM » |
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RAW is retarded. The books were written assume the readers have some common sense and they could not possibly come up with every possible loophole that would occur with interaction between all the spells abilities and what not. If you know in your gut that is broken as hell, then it was not meant to work like that and shouldn't be.
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The_Mad_Linguist
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2010, 04:44:58 PM » |
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Hellbreaker's HiPS-like ability doesn't say you can't hide in your shadow.
Genesis doesn't say you can't alter the time trait.
Fighter doesn't say you don't get epic spells.
Eer... This trick seems to be an equal par with some other TO stuff.
Fighter also doesn't say you're allowed to use your class abilities on Sunday. |
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Ithamar
Hong Kong
Posts: 959
PM me if you're interested in some Arena action!
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2010, 06:10:33 PM » |
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A fighter has class abilities? I never noticed...
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Are you worthy of Ascension?Always accepting gladiators! Now with a new and improved rule set!
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