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Author Topic: Mob/Unit Template-Making groups of weak creatures threatening to players!  (Read 14290 times)
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oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« on: December 20, 2010, 05:08:03 PM »




The zergs show that quantity has a quality of it's own.


Intro
Well, as any D&D player may have noticed, it's really hard to make large number of small enemies threaten players once they start reaching higher levels.

It would be really cool if you could put your 10th level party against a hundred level 1 orc warriors, but the batle would  be really one sided as the casters fly and drop nukes and the orcs can, at best, hit the party members on nat 20s, plus no sane DM wants to roll attacks, saves and iniatives for one hundred orcs, not to mention the models.

And the players wouldn't even get experience.

The good news is that DMG 2 gave us the mob template, wich turns that group of commoners into actualy something dangerous.

The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks. Ok, it's probably the best thing in the book, and the only reason any D&D player should bother reading it, but the template itself really could use some work. It's a great idea and so I decided to properly polish it.

So I present you:
Mobs(template)
An angry mob represents a group of creatures that band togheter with a single destructive mentality. Like killing someone or taking down a city.

A mob is treated as a single entity similar to a swarm,
except that it is made of larger creatures. A mob can be
composed of Small, Medium, or Large creatures, but all
the individual creatures must be of the same type. A mob
that incorporates a crowd of goblins and a crowd of chokers
is best modeled by two separate mobs.

“Mob” is an acquired template that can be added to any
group of Small, Medium, or Large creatures who choose to form a mob. A mob uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Unless noted otherwise, all of the mob abilities are ex abilities.

Resumed version:

Size: dependant on the number of members. Large ones count as four and small ones count as half. Mobs have reach as the base creature.
8-20: large
21-37: huge
38-68: gargantuan
69-128: colossal

Other creatures can move across a mob, but it counts as dificult terrain and provokes attacks of oportunity from the mob. The mob can move over creatures whitout trouble, but causing attacks of oportuny for movement. Mobs attacks of oportunity deal Mob Up damage (see attacks) and hit automatically, except that they have no limit to the number of Aoos they may perform per turn. Mobs can change their shape at will as long as their area remains the same and pass trough any passage large enough to allow passage of their composing inidividuals.

HD:Equal to the number of members. Mobs breack up at 0 hp, with it's members killed, disabled and/or running for their lives.

Speed:reduce all movement speeds by 10 feet.

The following remain unchanged from the base creature, but apply the mob's size modifier: AC, grapple

The following remain unchanged from the base creature:Iniative, BAB, saves, physical stats, skills, attack options that don't demand an activation like poison, and any ability that's based on the total number of HD of the creature

Charisma, intelegence and wisdom change to 10.

Mob damage: die damage of the weapon most common on the mob, increased to the new size, and multiplied by the following factor based on the mob's size. Apply strenght modifier before multiplier.

1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
Full BAB:multiply by 3

Armor and shield bonuses count as DR against all mob attacks. They stack with each other and any DR the creature may have. If a creature has enough natural DR that a single member of the mob couldn't hurt it, then the mob can't damage it.


Mob attack options:


Mob up:
mobs automaticaly deal mob damage to all creatures in the same area of the mob at the end of the mob's turn, whitout need of any action. It may also choose to attack objects whitin it's reach as a free action at the end of their turn. Creatures that would do something to trigger an attack of oportunity from the Mob take automatic Mob Up damage.

Volley:Standard action, single target or area based on mob size. Uses mob's ranged weapons range. Ref save for half damage of 10+mob's dex+mob's BAB.
If the mob has enough BAB it can do iterative attacks as a fullround action, but only against a single target. Range increment penalties apply to the save DC.

Large:Can't use area attack.
Huge-5 radius circle.
Gargantuan-10 radius circle.
Colossal-20 radius circle.

Creatures hit by a volley  can't move next turn and drop twice the damage they've taken in feet if they're flying. A sucessfull save means hit creatures move at half speed next turn and drops the damage taken in feet if flying.
Volleys cannot be used if the mob has ungrappled enemies inside of it, and cause attacks of oportunity just as using regular ranged weapons.

Mob grapple: as normal grapple, but creatures who are caught by the mob take mob damage instead of unarmed damage, and the mob can never be grappled itself. It can also carry grappled creatures at it's full speed. A mob who's grappling a target never takes any penalty for grappling.

Trample:The mob must start and end it's turn away from the creature, passing over it somewhere in between.  Damage 2d6+1,5 str modifier of the mob, reflex DC 13+mob's size bonus+mob's strenght modifier for half damage. Enemies can choose to make an aoo instead of the save.  Only smaller creatures than the mob are affected.

Mob mind:A mob cannot use any special ability that demands an activation like spells and breath attacks. It can still use abilities that work automaticaly such as poison, improved grappled, swallow whole, gaze attacks ect. Use the base creature HD for DCs

Mobs can still use skills as normal.

Mob Anatomy:Immune to criticals, precision damage and spells/effects that don't deal damage and/or don't outright kill a creature.

Mobs can be  flanked, bullrushed, overrun and tripped as normal.

Mobs can only be grappled by oponents of their size or bigger. Evard's black tentacles and similar effects can grapple a mob if it fully envelops it. A mob can still grapple smaller oponents out of their own will.

If a mob fails a save against a spell/effect that would normally kill/incapacitate a certain number of creatures, such as disintregate, slay living or wail of the bashee, it loses the total HP of the dead members from it's HP total.

Mobs take +50% damage from area damage spells.
Mobs take double damage from melee attacks from creatures with cleave.
Mobs take quadruple damage from melee attacks from creatures with greater cleave.

Feats: Same as the base creature; all mobs gain Improved
Bull Rush and Improved Overrun as bonus feats.

Challenge Rating:
Large:3, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 2 or higher.
Huge:5, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 4 or higher.
Gargantuan:8, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 7 or higher.
Colossal:12, or +2 if the base creature’s CR is 11 or higher.

Detailed version

Size and Type:
Size is based on the number of creatures forming the mob. Large creatures count as four, and small creatures count as half. It is assumed that the creatures press against each other, and thus they fill less space than they would fill as individuals. There must be at least 8 members to form a mob. Mobs with more members than the maximum size should be represented as multiple mobs. The mob’s type remains unchanged from the base creature.

8-20: large
21-37: huge
38-68: gargantuan
69-128: colossal

Hit Dice:
A mob has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit
points. Like regular HP, it's an abstraction of both the endurance of the members of the mob and their will to destroy whatever it's on their path.

The mob has HD equal to the number of composing members (with large creatures counting as 4 and small creatures counting as half).

Reducing a mob to 0 hit points or lower causes it to breack up, with it's members killed, bleeding on the floor and/or routed, fleeing for their lives, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Mobs are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage.

However, for abilities based on the number of HD, like SR, the mob uses the number of HD of the base creature.

Initiative: As the most common among the creatures composing the mob.

Speed:
A mob’s speed is 10 feet slower than that of the
base creature.

Armor Class:
As the base creatures, with the respective penalty for the new size(-1 for large, -2 for huge, -4 for gargantuan, -8 for colossal)
If the creatures have diferent kinds of AC, use the most common.


Base Attack:
Use the most common BAB of the members of the mob. Don't recalculate based on the new HD.

Grapple: Use the base creature attack bonus, modified for the mob's size, and as appropriate for its Strength modifier.

Attack/Full Attack: Mobs can’t make standard attacks. In return, they receive three special attack options:

 
Mob up

A mob automaticaly deals damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move, with no attack roll needed. Mob attacks ignore concealmentand cover. A mob’s attacks are nonmagical, unless the base creature’s attacks are considered magical. Damage reduction applies to mob up attacks. If a creature has armor and/or shield, add their AC bonus to the creature's DR against Mob Up. Mob Up cannot hurt a creature with enough DR to fully nullify the attacks of the base creature composing the Mob.

The damage amount and type is based on the damage the most common kind of individual of the mob would normaly deal, but multiplied by a factor based on it's BAB and increase the damage HD acording to the new size.

1/2 BAB:Don't multiply
3/4 BAB: multiply by 2
Full BAB:multiply by 3

For example, a mob of 50 orc warriors with longswords would deal 12d6+6 damage to any creature inside it every turn.

The mob can also choose to deal that damage to any unatended object it is touching. So a mob could eventualy bring down walls and houses, assuming it's members had enough strenght.


Volley

If at least half of the members of the mob have similar ranged weapons, they can fire at the same time at an area or target as a standard action. The mob cannot fire if it has nongrappled enemies on it's midst.

Range is the same as the ranged weapon more common in the mob. Damage is as the mob up attack, but based on the ranged weapon the mob is using. Range increments give a bonus on the defender's save of +2 for each range increment.

Single target: as mob up attack damage, enemy can make a reflex save equal to the mob's BAB+ 10+mob's dex modifier for half damage. If using a fullround action the mob can do iterative attacks, but whitout the -5 penalty.

Area attack: A mob of huge size or larger, as a fullround action, can deal mob up damage in an area based on their own size. Reflex of 10+BAB+mob's dex modifier for half.

Huge-5 radius circle.
Gargantuan-10 radius circle.
Colossal-20 radius circle.

Creatures who fail their saves against a volley of either kind are pinned down by the projectiles, and cannot move next turn. If flying, they drop down twice as much feet as they took damage.

Even if they make their saves, their speed is reduced to half in the next turn, and if flying they drop a number of feet equal to the damage taken.
 


Mob grapple: a mob can grapple as a standard action, altough it cannot be grappled back by creatures smaller than itself. Sucessfull rolls from smaller oponents just mean it managed to don't be brought down by the mob. Instead of unarmed damage, the mob deals  the mob up attack damage to grappled oponents as they are mercyless steped over by the angry individuals. The mob can carry grappled oponents at it's full speed.

Space/Reach:
Large-10 by 10 feets square
Huge-15 by 15 feets square.
Gargantuan-20 by 20 feets square.
Colossal-30 by 30 feets square.

A mob's reach is the same of the base creature. It can make as much aoos per turn as oportunities arise. A Mob's Aoos automatically hit and deal Mob Up damage.. It's height is  the average of the composing individuals.

 In order to attack, it moves into an opponent’s space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature, since it tramples over and moves around its victim. A mob
can move through squares occupied by enemies, and enemies can move trough a Mob, but they count it as difficult terrain. Both provoke attacks of oportunity. A mob can move through openings large enough for its component creatures.

The area occupied by  mobs is completely shapeable,
though the mob usually remains in contiguous squares.


Mob mind:
A mob’s mentality is fueled by emotion, as a result, the individual creatures that make up the mob are unable to use any attack options that require actions, such as breath weapons, spell-like abilities, and the like. If the base creature has attack options that affect the damage it deals (such as poison, energy drain, ability damage, improved grab, constrict, rend, or swallow whole), those special attacks function normally on any creature damaged by the mob. Attack options such as gaze weapons that function constantly continue to function normally. The mob gains +4 to the DC of those abilities for each size it is bigger than medium.

Mobs can still use skills as normal.

In addition, mobs gain both of the following:
Expert Grappler (Ex): A mob can maintain a grapple without
penalty and still make attacks against other targets
(normally, attacking other targets while grappling imposes
a –20 penalty on grapple checks). A mob is never considered
flat-footed while grappling.
Trample (Ex): A mob that simply moves over a creature
and doesn’t end its movement with that creature in one of
its occupied squares can trample the creature. The creature must be at least one size smaller than the mob. A trampled creature takes damage equal to 2d6 points + 1,5 times the mob’s Strength modifi er. The victim can either make an attack of opportunity against the mob or make a Refl ex save (DC 13+mob's size bonus+the mob’s Str modifi er)to take half damage.

Special Qualities:
A mob retains all the special qualities
of the base creature. In addition, it gains the following
special quality.
Mob Anatomy (Ex)
: A mob has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or sneak attacks. A mob can be flanked, tripped, bull rushed by anyone. A Mob can be grappled by creatures of it's size or bigger. Evard's black tentacles and similar spells/effects can affect a mob if they fully envelop it.

However, unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have
an effect on a mob. Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures decuts their full HP from the Mob's total HP.

A mob that gains negative levels equal to its Hit Dice breaks up as if reduced to 0 hit points. Negative levels gained in this manner are not the result of negative energy (and thus cannot be blocked by death ward or removed by restoration), but never result in permanent level loss. A mob takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash
weapons and evocation spells.

Characters with cleave deal double damage to a mob in melee. Characters with greater cleave deal quadruple damage to a mob in melee.

Saves: A mob uses the same saving throws as the base creature, but failed saves never result in anything worst than negative levels as it loses members. Effects that don't instantly disable a creature (like blindness or curse) have no effect whatsoever on the mob.

Abilities: A mob’s abilities are the same as the base creature, except that its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores drop to 10. If the base creature’s Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma scores are already lower than 10, they do not change.

Skills: Same as the base creature; do not recalculate based on the mob’s new Hit Dice. The mob’s new Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma scores might grant some skills different modifiers.

Feats: Same as the base creature; all mobs gain Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun as bonus feats.

Challenge Rating: Based on size:

Large:3, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
is 2 or higher.
Huge:5, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
is 4 or higher.
Gargantuan:8, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
is 7 or higher.
Colossal:12, or +2 if the base creature’s CR
is 11 or higher.


Sample mobs.

Goblin raiding team
 
CR 3
NE large humanoid (mob of 16 goblin warriors):
Init +5;
AC 12, touch 10, flat-footed 11(-1 size, +1 dex, +2 armor)
36 HP (8d8)
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Mob up with longswords (6d6-3) or shortbows (3d8-3, range 60 feet, ref DC 11, one volley if using fullround action)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +1; Grp +4
Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
Abilities Str 8, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ mob anatomy
Feats Improved Initiative, Improved
Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Skills hide +1, move silently +5

Hill giant stampede
CR 12
CE colossal giant (mob of 25 hill giants):
Init +3;
AC 13, touch 1, flat-footed 13(-8 size, -1 dex, +3 armor)
850 HP (100d8+400)
Fort +12, Ref +3, Will +4
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Mob up with greatclubs (12d8+14) or rocks (12d6+14, range 120 feet, ref DC 18 for half, two volleys if using fullround action)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +32
Atk Options expert grappler, trample 2d6
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
SQ mob anatomy
Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:57:13 AM by oslecamo » Logged

oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 05:09:08 PM »

Led Mob (template)

This aspiring chaos champion knows well that even with his power armor and genetic enanchments, a wall of weak traitor guardsmen is still a valuable asset.

Some mobs form up spontaneously, each individual following the other whitout anyone being really in control, and just trampling over whatever they feel like.

Other mobs aren't as random. Specialy charismatic and/or brutal individuals may manage to gather a group of weaker minded individuals around them, and then use them as a blunt tool.

Altough still unable to perform sophisticated actions, a Led Mob is considerably stronger when it has someone pointing it where to go.

Unless where otherwise noted, a Led Mob works exactly as a regular Mob


Creation:
Anyone wanting to become the center of a Led Mob (therefore refered as the Leader), must
1- Choose a Mob with wich you can comunicate. Make a diplomacy/initimidate check with DC=20+mob's CR+Mob's will save as a fullround action. Leaders may replace charisma for any physical stat on this check. If the first check fails, then the mob is immune to any further dissuadation atempt from that Leader for 24 hours. If the check suceeds, then the mob will do anything in it's power to join with the Leader. When they meet up, they become a Led Mob.

2-Alternatively, the Leader may start up his own mob. This demands that there are at least 8 nearby individuals of medium size and same type, or 16 of small size or 4 of large size, all at least helpfull to the Leader. Make a diplomacy/intimidate check. All nearby individuals must make a will save with DC= to your check or join around you on a mob. Charmed creatures take a -10 penalty in this save. Creatures controled by you or fanatic to you automaticaly join this mob. You must get the minimum number of individuals to create the mob.

Either case, a Leader doesn't need to be of the same kind of the creatures of the mob, but it must be of their size or smaller. A mob's mentality sees anything much bigger than their individuals as a threat.

Acording to the DM's discretion, diplomacy/intimidate may be replaced by other skills depending on the kind of mob and situation. For example, a mob of animals may be controled by handle animal check, and a mob of zombies may be directed by a knowledge religion check.

The Leader never counts in favor of the basic Mob statistics.

Hands free:
The Leader decides the actions of the Led Mob as a free action each turn, allowing him to use his own actions to his own devices. The only limitation is that the Leader counts as having spent a move action if the Led Mob also moves. The Leader cannot make Aoos, but it can attack anyone in reach of the Led Mob.

Above all others:
The Led Mob protects the Leader at all costs, puting themselves between him and incoming attacks. The Leader counts as having total cover and cannot be targeted by any means, but is still being able to observe his surroundings and target other creatures.

If an attack roll against a mob results on a natural 20, the attacker may choose to attack the enemy Leader instead of the Led Mob. Roll again, but this time agains the Leader statistics. If the attacker has any kind of precision damage dices like sneack attack, it needs only to roll 20-X, where X is the number of precision dice they have. So for example a 19th rogue with 10 sneack attack dice would only need to roll 10-20 to be able to target the leader. Conditions for the precision dice to work must be met (normaly Mob flatfooted). The Leader himself never takes the extra precision damage, is just easier to target.

If the Led mob gets hit by area attacks, the Leader only takes damage if the Led Mob rolls a natural 1 on the save.

If an enemy is inside the mob, it may attack the Leader in melee with a 50% miss chance. If the attack misses due to this, it hits the Led Mob instead.


Leadership:By not performing any other actions that would demand speaking, the leader may shout orders, advice and/or threats at the mass around him to make them fight better. In this case the mob adds the leader best mental stat bonus modifier to all saves, DCs, attacks, skill checks, ability checks and damage rolls (multiply by the BAB factor).

Momentum:If the Leader dies or willingly leaves the Led Mob, it reverts back to a normal Mob, and the Leader must again meet the pre-requisites of creating the Led Mob if he wants to join them again.

CR:Same as the base Mob+Leader's CRs(minimum +1 of the highest between them)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 05:12:52 PM by oslecamo » Logged

oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 05:11:54 PM »

Unit(template)


Even squishy elfs become a threat when properly organized


Trough training and carefull coordination, an unit allows for the whole to be greater than the sum of the part. On the other hand, a single weak member may easily cripple or destroy the unit from inside, meaning that quality is as important as quantity when choosing it's members.

Creation:
Unlike mobs, units don't form out of nowhere, but once properly trained, they can be quickly formed up when necessity arises.

In order to join an unit a creature must train X days, where X is the number of members of the unit to be formed. This takes 8 hours of nonstop effort per training day and any interruption means it must be restarted from the begining. Forming an unit is no hobby you can easily drop and pick up again whenever you like it!

Even mindless creatures can form units, as long as it's controler is willing to spend the training time geting used to make them move on formation. Uncontroled mindless creatures can't form units.


Unless otherwise noted, an unit works as a mob


HP: as a mob, but add any HD gained from levels from the members as well. So for example a mob of ten lv5 human fighters would have 50 HD.

Abilities:
an unit retains it's mental ability scores. If it's members have diferent mental scores, use the lowest ones.

Speed:
As the slowest creature on the unit. The members of an unit are trained to march in synchrozination.

BAB: Use the lowest among the members of the unit.

Saves: Use the lowest among members of the unit.

Discipline:An unit gains a bonus on it's saves, skills and ability checks equal to it's size modifier(+4 for large, +8 for huge, ect)

Unit Anatomy:Unlike a mob, an unit is vulnerable to critical hits and precision damage as it's strenght comes from it's carefull formation. Otherwise this works exactly as Mob Anatomy.

Wall of bodies:An unit keeps a tight cohesive formation, meaning it can choose to stop other creatures from moving inside it.

Wall of blades: An unit deals mob up damage to all creatures whitin it's reach at the end of each of it's turns. In adition, a Unit with reach weapons (like spears or polearms) always threaten both the adjacent squares and reach squares.

Tactics: an unit may use activated abilities from it's members, as long as they coordinate themselves carefuly.

As a  swift action one member of the unit may use an activated ability it possesses. Others may help, up the following maximum number:
large: 2 combined members.
huge: 3 combined members.
gargantuan:4 combined members.
colossal:6 combined members.

For each extra member beyond the first, the ability counts as being two level higher for all levels purposes and it's DCs increase by 2 as well. So 3 lv5 wizards with 16 int each casting fireball at the same time from inside an unit would cast a single fireball dealing 9d6 damage counting as CL9 and with a DC of 10+3+3+2+2=20

CR:
Large:5, or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
 2 or higher.
Huge:7, or +4  if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
is 4 or higher.
Gargantuan:10, or +4  if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
7 or higher.
Colossal:14,  or +4 if the creature with more HD on the unit has CR
 11 or higher.



Led Unit(template)


This undead army became much fiercer once it had an undead general to comand it.

Puting a talented leader into the midle of an unit makes for the ultimate formation. This individuals inspires and comands it's subordinate in batle.

Creation:
As an unit, but once the training is over the leader must get the unit's trust. Make a diplomacy/intimidate check of 20+mob's CR to get it to acept you as your leader. You may replace charisma for any other score on this check. The DC is double for units neutral to you and hostile units always refuse, altough the DM may allow bluff/disguise to allow you to lead an enemy unit acording to the circumstances.

Otherwise a led unit works exactly as a led mob, plus it gains the following extra abilities:

Comand:
Leading an unit is no easy task. At the begining of each turn the leader must make a skill check (wich skill dependant of the DM) with a DC of 10+unit's CR+1 per each 10% missing HP from the Unit:

Fail:neither the led unit or the leader may take no actions this turn.
Suceed: the led unit may act as normal but the leader can't take any actions except the leadership ability.
Suceed by 5 or more: as above, but the leader can take a partial action.
Suceed by 10 or more: as above, but the leader can take actions normaly.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 07:03:26 PM by oslecamo » Logged

Sinfire Titan
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 06:25:15 PM »

You are aware that there is a real Mob template in DMG2, right?


I haven't used it enough to see if it is useful or not.
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Prime32
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 06:28:28 PM »

I notice that since killing individual members merely inflicts a negative level, a Unit can keep fighting after all its members are dead. Tongue I like how they can be affected by critical hits and precision damage though.

I'd suggest allowing Units to attack adjacent squares with reach weapons - having multiple rows of polearms is an effective tactic.

You are aware that there is a real Mob template in DMG2, right?


I haven't used it enough to see if it is useful or not.
Quote
The good news is that DMG 2 gave us the mob template, wich turns that group of commoners into actualy something dangerous.

The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks. Ok, it's probably the best thing in the book, and the only reason any D&D player should bother reading it, but the template itself really could use some work. It's a great idea and so I decided to properly polish it.
*cough*
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My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 07:05:21 PM »

Added Led Unit on the Unit post.

I notice that since killing individual members merely inflicts a negative level, a Unit can keep fighting after all its members are dead. Tongue
You're right, it's just too silly. Removed negative levels thingy, dead members simply remove their HP total from the mob/unit.

I really wanted to put some moral/rallying/routing system, but couldn't come up with anything simple and sensible, so HP abstractization it is!

I'd suggest allowing Units to attack adjacent squares with reach weapons - having multiple rows of polearms is an effective tactic.
Oh, nice idea there, I couldn't think of an idea how to represent that!

*cough*
Well glad someone noticed that part. Wich is right in the intro. Tongue
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 07:28:35 PM »

This concept is desperately needed in a world where 100 pikemen and archers can't normally take on an adult dragon.

I remember back in high school when first introduced to MUDs and MUSHes the term "mob" came up and I thought it was for a group of enemies. Those proto-MMO geeks cackled at me. It stands for "mobiles" in that context.

You are aware that there is a real Mob template in DMG2, right?

Uh oh! Someone didn't read the whole first post...
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Prime32
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 09:38:59 PM »

I had some similar rules to these written up for the Successor Project, but those boards are gone now and I can't find them. Sad

Perhaps allow mobs to enter each others' spaces, but increase the space of both in the process? Eg. a 10x10 mob of fighters and a 10x10 mob of rogues could take up a single 15x15 space.
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My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:14:18 AM »

What about caster/SLA using mobs?
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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Prime32
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 06:38:51 AM »

I really wanted to put some moral/rallying/routing system, but couldn't come up with anything simple and sensible, so HP abstractization it is!
Maybe when the number of remaining units is below 8 the mob breaks apart?
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My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 08:49:43 AM »

Perhaps allow mobs to enter each others' spaces, but increase the space of both in the process? Eg. a 10x10 mob of fighters and a 10x10 mob of rogues could take up a single 15x15 space.

And what would be the purpose of that exactly? Mobs don't work that well with diferent kinds of units.

What about caster/SLA using mobs?
The Unit (3rd post) can use activated abilities. Or give them a leader, wich can use it's own spells/SLAs.

Maybe when the number of remaining units is below 8 the mob breaks apart?
Well, that would make a 8 men mob really fragile. And bigger mobs wouldn't really care about that because they have dozens of members.

Breaking up when they lose half their original members?
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Prime32
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 09:28:36 AM »

Well, that would make a 8 men mob really fragile. And bigger mobs wouldn't really care about that because they have dozens of members.

Breaking up when they lose half their original members?
"Congratulations, you've scattered the 128-man mob! Now hang on while I make attack rolls for 64 enemies."

Maybe they could break into smaller mobs? (which usually remain adjacent)


Were you thinking of any feats related to mob combat? For instance, a "Tortoise Formation" feat which lets units attack at penalty while using tower shields for total cover, or a "Wedge Formation" which lets them charge more effectively (perhaps forcibly splitting enemy mobs).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:38:31 AM by Prime32 » Logged

My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
veekie
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 11:41:55 AM »

I was thinking more of disorganized caster mobs though...like a full blown riot at wizard school.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
oslecamo
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Posts: 1940



« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 11:54:46 AM »

Maybe they could break into smaller mobs? (which usually remain adjacent)
If reduced at half HP/members, Will save or break in two smaller mobs (or disperse if the mob was large-sized). I kinda like it.

Were you thinking of any feats related to mob combat? For instance, a "Tortoise Formation" feat which lets units attack at penalty while using tower shields for total cover, or a "Wedge Formation" which lets them charge more effectively (perhaps forcibly splitting enemy mobs).

For the Mob not really as they're suposed to be a bunch of screaming dudes waving pitchforks whitout any real organization, but a formation system for the Unit would be nice.  When I have the free time and inspiration for that.

veekie: Mob's Int, Wis and Cha are 10 as they're too angry to properly think. The full blown riot would at best be able to throw cantrips around.

Altough if you have any sugestion how to do disorgasized caster mobs in a simple way that justifies how they can get spells out when they're trampling over each other and concentration is basically impossible, I'm all hears.
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veekie
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 10:23:40 PM »

Do it Beholder style maybe? A random list of spells it'd spew out, with an abstract number of slots(comparable to the average per day of the casters). Each round the mob consumes one such slot to hurl a flurry of spells out.
Basically each of them is casting spells their own way, between random trampling, resulting in numerous spells flying all over the place.  But between all the jostling, more than half of them lose whatever spells they were casting.

Organized mobs...I figure you just ramp up the number of targets/caster level/area in cooperative casting.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 04:45:59 PM »

You are aware that there is a real Mob template in DMG2, right?


I haven't used it enough to see if it is useful or not.
Quote
The good news is that DMG 2 gave us the mob template, wich turns that group of commoners into actualy something dangerous.

The bad news is that, like everything else in DMG2, it kinda sucks. Ok, it's probably the best thing in the book, and the only reason any D&D player should bother reading it, but the template itself really could use some work. It's a great idea and so I decided to properly polish it.
*cough*

It would appear I failed a saving throw against Blindness...
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oslecamo
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 06:29:11 PM »

Unit Feat Conversion

Several feats warriors usually take suddenly become useless when in a mob or unit, but the later can put them to good use.

Wedge Formation (Power attack): the Unit points all his members towards a single point to inflict maximum damage on a target, but they let themselves vulnerable to an attack from other oponents. As a fullround action, the unit performs a charge as per the normal rules (including taking a -2 penalty to AC), except at the end the Mob Up damage it deals is multiplied on the following manner (don't apply the normaly multiplier):

1/2 BAB:multiply by 2
3/4 BAB: multiply by 4
Full BAB:multiply by 6

In adition, if you use Wedge Formation on another Unit or Mob, you may atempt a bullrush atempth as a free action. If you suceed, the other Mob/Unit is split in two, each with half it's members, separated by a distance equal to your Unit's face (so a Large Unit would leave beind a 10-foot separation). If it was a led Mob/Unit, the leader remains on an half of his choice. You may then continue to move up to your max Charge range. The split mobs/units may join again by spending both a fullround action to get togheter.

Turtle Formation(Tower Shield Proefeciency): This formation demands all the members to be equiped with tower shields and be proefecient with them. As an immediate action, the members of the Unit may raise their shields togheter to gain total cover from any and all ranged attacks, including magic ones, untill the start of their next turn, but all their movement speeds are reduced by half for 1 round.

Iron Wall (combat reflexes): The Unit's weapons create a dangerous barrier. Oponents hit by their attacks of oportunity have all their speeds reduced by half for 1 round.

Spread Up (combat expertise): The Unit's discipline allows it to spread out it's members whitout sacrificing any power. It may, as a swift action, become one size larger, gaining all the apropriate bonus and penalties, or return to normal (ability scores and natural armor always remain the same tough).

Leader Feat Conversion

In a similar way that an Unit can give new use to old feats, so do Ledaers can apply their expertise to their forces

Combat blessing (recquires Combat Casting):When beings band togheter a special bond if formed between them. You can infuse that bond with magic. If you cast a spell while leading a mob/unit, you may have it affect all it's members. If you leave the mob/unit or it disperses, the spell ends.

Warlord (recquires weapon focus and specialization in the same weapon): You show your men how it's done. If the Unit/mob you're leading how it's is using the same weapon you have Focus and Expertise in, increase their damage multiplier by 1.

Glory in Battle (recquires Improved Critical): Whenever you threaten a critical hit with the weapon you have Improved Critical with, you do it in a spectacular way, filling your forces with bloodlust. They gain +1 moral bonus on Saves and damage rolls for every 2 HD of the target you were attacking (if a mob was damaged, use the HD of it's weakest member), for 1 round. Minimum +1 morale bonus.

Fighter Leaders: A  Fighter 3 may grant one of his feats to all it's Unit/Mob members for as long as he leads them. For every two extra Fighter levels he has, he may grant one extra feat.


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Amechra
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Thread Necromancy a Specialty


« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2011, 10:54:05 PM »

I am amused by the following:

I form a mob out of 16 Halflings. This is the minimum mob size. As they are still humanoids, I apply the Lycanthrope template to grab Tiger, or something. I go into hybrid form; as a result, the mob increases in strength and gains DR and a couple other goodies. What would that look like?
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Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing
veekie
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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2011, 11:55:19 PM »

You have a furry halfling orgy. Duh.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."
oslecamo
Grape ape
*****
Posts: 1940



« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2011, 10:07:11 AM »

I am amused by the following:

I form a mob out of 16 Halflings. This is the minimum mob size. As they are still humanoids, I apply the Lycanthrope template to grab Tiger, or something. I go into hybrid form; as a result, the mob increases in strength and gains DR and a couple other goodies. What would that look like?

It would look like the old bunch of halflings since hybrid form needs to be activated and a mob cannot use activated abilities.

You could do it with an unit, in wich case I would simply rule they now fill a bigger area. Furry orgy may also be a possibility if you swing that way.
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