Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There are only two kinds of enemies that can use AMF effectively: Beholders and Dragons. 

And dudes with Sculpt Spell

[Sunic_Flames]

Sunic, I have no idea who you are, but you're being really obtuse. Being the Dungeon Master, you can have the enemies do anything. If you really feel the need to explain it, say that the low level kobolds using the AMF-spawning grenade found it in a wizard's tower. If you don't, just call it goddamn magic and get it over with.

And how much do you adjust the encounter level when you do this?

GIANT FROG.

As in he doesn't know, he's just being a fucking idiot and somewhat Paizil like.

[Barbarossa]

I don't have to. The item itself is merely for balancing reasons, to make the encounter more appropriate for the level that it is already at.

[weenog]

I don't have to. The item itself is merely for balancing reasons, to make the encounter more appropriate for the level that it is already at.

A low-level encounter with an antimagic field effect, and one that comes in an item form that can be thrown rather than being centered on the caster.

Okay, you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, and can be safely ignored.

[Barbarossa]

No, the item doesn't exist in core. No, the item doesn't have to exist in core. I have been a dungeon master for most of a decade now, and I know what works when I run a game. If you can't use your imagination to balance an encounter, the rules aren't going to help you either.

[weenog]

You've been a dungeon master for more thanmost of a decade now, and you think throwing an improved version of something appropriate to a level 11+ encounter into something around CR 2 or 3 is going to "make the encounter more appropriate for the level that it is already at"?

You're like a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench.  I pity your players, really I do.

[Sunic_Flames]

I don't have to. The item itself is merely for balancing reasons, to make the encounter more appropriate for the level that it is already at.

A low-level encounter with an antimagic field effect, and one that comes in an item form that can be thrown rather than being centered on the caster.

Okay, you've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, and can be safely ignored.

Well, it's proven that he's a Paizil now. In addition to that...

Me: So, the stuff that beats AMF is lower level than AMF.
Him: Herp derp GIANT FROG.

The onus is on him to show a level at which AMF works but the things that foil it don't. Of course since the things that foil it are level 1, and there's no level lower than that this is impossible. This is why he's full of fail. And even if you ignore that, lol move out of it.

[veekie]

Antimagic Field

Remember AMF is only a 10ft radius centered on the caster(unless you're a beholder). You're practically in melee with the AMF caster, which is most likely a monster with spellcasting(see dragons). Now, monsters don't generally get or require spell buffs, so imagine what happens to the poor fighter who is now meleeing it without the benefit of his +X sword, +6 belt of strength and 4 AC enhancers. He'd be cheesed.

Casters have no real NEED to stay in the field of effect of an AMF since they can perform their duties anywhere on a battlefield, and if you can trap one somewhere, that means the tanks are in the same predicament.

[dark_samuari]

Are we still having this argument about how to challenge casters? Why not pull a page from Jack Bauer and force the party under a time clock so they don't get sleep.

There, I have just crippled casters (those low-level enough to not use demi-plane time tricks) and fatigued the non-casters.

This isn't hard as the DM. And while it might not be fair it is an example (and one that can come up in a game set against a time clock of some impeding doom).

[Barbarossa]

You're like a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench.  I pity your players, really I do.

There's really no need to be rude. For your information, my players are the type that enjoy a challenge.

Well, it's proven that he's a Paizil now. In addition to that...

Me: So, the stuff that beats AMF is lower level than AMF.
Him: Herp derp GIANT FROG.

What does the term 'Paizil' imply? A quick search revealed to me that it was a portmanteau of Paizo and Fail, but having not had much experience with Paizo except for reading some of their publications, I can't say that I understand. The giant frog thing is pretty confusing too.

The onus is on him to show a level at which AMF works but the things that foil it don't. Of course since the things that foil it are level 1, and there's no level lower than that this is impossible. This is why he's full of fail.

I never said that an antimagic field would be 100% effective against spellcasters. I merely said that adding a few of those (or Dead Magic Zones, for that matter) would create a more difficult fight for the casters in the party. Sure, there are ways to bypass it easily. If a player were to be entirely blocked by the field, they wouldn't be able to contribute to the party at all, would they?

[Sinfire Titan]

I never said that an antimagic field would be 100% effective against spellcasters. I merely said that adding a few of those (or Dead Magic Zones, for that matter) would create a more difficult fight for the casters in the party. Sure, there are ways to bypass it easily. If a player were to be entirely blocked by the field, they wouldn't be able to contribute to the party at all, would they?

Using AMFs is like making a Paladin fall. Its a dick move that denies them their class features. It does not encourage creativity, it encourages them to be afraid of their own class.

Why? He's done the math. It isn't theory, it's statistical fact.

Sorry, but as a Biology major, this line annoys me. 

I know what most people use the word "theory" to mean, but in science, a theory holds more weight than a law or fact.  Theories don't get to be theories without extensive testing and re-testing.  A theory is as close to proving something as you can get.

So, that should read "He's done the math.  It isn't a hypothesis, it's statistical fact".

[/derailment]

I was not aware of the difference. Thanks for the clarification.

[Lycanthromancer]

I never said that an antimagic field would be 100% effective against spellcasters. I merely said that adding a few of those (or Dead Magic Zones, for that matter) would create a more difficult fight for the casters in the party. Sure, there are ways to bypass it easily. If a player were to be entirely blocked by the field, they wouldn't be able to contribute to the party at all, would they?

Using AMFs is like making a Paladin fall. Its a dick move that denies them their class features. It does not encourage creativity, it encourages them to be afraid of their own class.

It's not a direct analogy.

Clever use of AMFs can, indeed, encourage creativity.

But you need to use them properly.

[Sinfire Titan]

I never said that an antimagic field would be 100% effective against spellcasters. I merely said that adding a few of those (or Dead Magic Zones, for that matter) would create a more difficult fight for the casters in the party. Sure, there are ways to bypass it easily. If a player were to be entirely blocked by the field, they wouldn't be able to contribute to the party at all, would they?

Using AMFs is like making a Paladin fall. Its a dick move that denies them their class features. It does not encourage creativity, it encourages them to be afraid of their own class.

It's not a direct analogy.

Clever use of AMFs can, indeed, encourage creativity.

But you need to use them properly.

It kinda is: He's talking about throwing a monster at them capable of shutting down a person's class features and ability to contribute to the encounter. It's kinda like throw a Good-aligned enemy at a Paladin and having him lose his class features for daring to challenge it.

But you are right: A clever use of AMFs will encourage the party to get creative. It will also encourage the party's casters to sit outside of the AMF's range and wait for the rest of the party to do something.

Edit:

Sunic, I have no idea who you are, but you're being really obtuse. Being the Dungeon Master, you can have the enemies do anything. If you really feel the need to explain it, say that the low level kobolds using the AMF-spawning grenade found it in a wizard's tower. If you don't, just call it goddamn magic and get it over with.

Oh really? No wonder you're arguing with him, you've never read his posts that detail why a Spellcaster is better than a Noncaster (as those are almost 2 years old now).

[Barbarossa]

Antimagic fields are a 20 foot diameter sphere that blocks most (but not all) magic. Either you cast something that can penetrate it, you go around, or one of numerous other plans. A paladin falling can take in-game weeks or months to reverse. A simple move action is all you need to bypass an antimagic field. It's no different than using difficult terrain to hamper the movement of melee characters. If the caster can't find a way through the field, then he can do something else while another character has a chance to shine.

It's kinda like throw a Good-aligned enemy at a Paladin and having him lose his class features for daring to challenge it.

This is why I use a more Eberron-like alignment system. The Greyhawk setting's Paladin Oath is just ridiculous.

[dark_samuari]

I never said that an antimagic field would be 100% effective against spellcasters. I merely said that adding a few of those (or Dead Magic Zones, for that matter) would create a more difficult fight for the casters in the party. Sure, there are ways to bypass it easily. If a player were to be entirely blocked by the field, they wouldn't be able to contribute to the party at all, would they?

Using AMFs is like making a Paladin fall. Its a dick move that denies them their class features. It does not encourage creativity, it encourages them to be afraid of their own class.

It's not a direct analogy.

Clever use of AMFs can, indeed, encourage creativity.

But you need to use them properly.

It kinda is: He's talking about throwing a monster at them capable of shutting down a person's class features and ability to contribute to the encounter. It's kinda like throw a Good-aligned enemy at a Paladin and having him lose his class features for daring to challenge it.

Good can not oppose good? Have the paladin use non-lethal attacks or simply lock such an opponent down. Also as the DM you control was constitutes a Paladin falling.

[Sinfire Titan]

Antimagic fields are a 20 foot diameter sphere that blocks most (but not all) magic.

IF YOU ARE INSIDE AN AMF YOU CANNOT CAST SPELLS AT ALL!

Either you cast something that can penetrate it, you go around, or one of numerous other plans. A paladin falling can take in-game weeks or months to reverse. A simple move action is all you need to bypass an antimagic field. It's no different than using difficult terrain to hamper the movement of melee characters. If the caster can't find a way through the field, then he can do something else while another character has a chance to shine.

Weenog was right: You seriously don't know what you are talking about.


Riddle me this: What happens to a 5th level Wizard who gets hit by your item? He's unable to use spells for however long he stays inside the damn thing. Now guess what? Using that item is likely a Standard action. This means that whatever used the item can Move up to the Wizard and keep him from leaving the AMF safely.

So the Wizard can't get out safely (and Tzeentch forbid you threw a Chain Tripper or Standstill build at the party).

Good can not oppose good? Have the paladin use non-lethal attacks or simply lock such an opponent down. Also as the DM you control was constitutes a Paladin falling.

I mean without telling him it is good-aligned.

But a Paladin can indeed fight a Good-aligned creature without falling. If they are aware that the creature is Good.

[dark_samuari]

Good can not oppose good? Have the paladin use non-lethal attacks or simply lock such an opponent down. Also as the DM you control was constitutes a Paladin falling.

I mean without telling him it is good-aligned.

But a Paladin can indeed fight a Good-aligned creature without falling. If they are aware that the creature is Good.

It shouldn't matter if he knows or doesn't know if the opponent is good-aligned (they also have detect evil at will). This is going to boil down to how one DM's & plays a Paladin but in my games a Paladin always gives the option of surrender to their opponent. Past that the Paladin simply locks them down with non-lethal damage.

I run/play my Paladins in many ways similar to the Jedi though so this isn't an argument that we can really get into...  

[Barbarossa]

ramblings

Okay, since when did you have to stay inside the field? Even if the enemy moves up close so that they can get an attack of opportunity when you try to leave, you can just use a Withdraw action. Yes, that one action that everyone forgets about. You know, avoid an attack of opportunity and move away at twice your movement speed? Sure, a reach weapon would prevent you from leaving without copping an AoO, but how often do you run into one that can attack things that are both adjacent and 10 feet away? The spiked chain is the only one I know of that can do that, and there are many ways of removing one.

[Sinfire Titan]

ramblings

Okay, since when did you have to stay inside the field? Even if the enemy moves up close so that they can get an attack of opportunity when you try to leave, you can just use a Withdraw action. Yes, that one action that everyone forgets about. You know, avoid an attack of opportunity and move away at twice your movement speed? Sure, a reach weapon would prevent you from leaving without copping an AoO, but how often do you run into one that can attack things that are both adjacent and 10 feet away? The spiked chain is the only one I know of that can do that, and there are many ways of removing one.

Anything bigger than medium size can make AoOs both adjacent and at reach. I'm not talking about PvP here, I'm talking about encounters in general. As the party gains levels, the size category of their enemies increase. By 7th level, the party will be facing large sized enemies every so often. By 15th level (when AMF is legally available to the party without tricks), the party is going to be facing a mix of Large sized enemies and a smattering of Huge/Colossal/Gargantuan creatures.

By 15th level, an AMF is a valid tactic for the enemies because the Spellcasters will be able to avoid being caught in one much easier (unless a Dragon decides to cast and crush). But at 9th level? Hell, even at 13th (when casting Contingency every day becomes easily affordable instead of taking up your best spell slot) it's still a dick move.

AMFs are not fun. They are a sign that you don't want the casters to solve a problem, which is what casters are supposed to be doing.

[snakeman830]

Barbossa, the problem is that you started out saying that AMF was an equalizer that could give the melees a chance to (almost) shine.  Now you're pointing out exactly why this isn't the case: a caster doesn't give a crap if he loses his Move action to be able to cast again- his best move only takes a standard action to do anyway.  At absolute best, an AMF makes him vulnerable to mundanes until his next turn comes up.  This doesn't make it so the caster suddenly has a tougher time with the encounter as he will likely survive said round anyway and then be back to raping reality as normal.  meanwhile, the beatsticks just became useless, since they rely on magic items to give them enough damage (with few exceptions).