Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well

[veekie]

I rolled a wizard and some other dude rolled a ranger. After one encounter where the enemy support was puking their guts out in Stinking Cloud, enemy melee was stuck in Evard's Black Tentacles and most of them were also slowed, the ranger player went like (see, told you rangers are good? your wizard didn't kill a single one of them).

That might actually be the most mutually happy ways to do it. Ignorance is bliss for melee.

[BrokeAndDrive]

Some of the bile I'm seeing directed towards Waazraath is a bit uncalled for.

There are only so many times one can encounter the same wrong point, and after explaining why it is wrong you're told "nuh-uh!", before you snap and shout just shut the fuck up! The more you make the same, unpaid, fake-polite performance to different folks mindlessly spitting piss everywhere, the harder your eventual blow-up will be.

And that's ignoring the dozens to hundreds of times you see that same garbage mantra repeated where you either can't reply or CBF registering and logging in just to tell them why they're idiots (where the only result is you made into a public pillory and/or banned for being "disruptive" ). That shit piles up; you HAVE to either resort to many layers of self-justifying mental defense mechanisms ("Oh they're just morons I shouldn't care what they say!" "What do they know!?" "My dick's bigger than theirs."), or just shout them the fuck down and feel all better, instead of harboring the resentment from not wanting others to feel the momentary bee-sting of your GFY.

Every time I see someone bitching about optimizers, powergamers, twinks, munchkins, etc. I have to wonder if they feel the same about, say, plumbers or mechanics spending time to hone their craft instead of learning how to sew or bake. Do they complain about doctors going to med school instead of getting an english major? Do they whine and cry when someone refuses to use a screwdriver to hammer in nails? Do they want the chef to do jumping jacks over their stew, or their banker to light his hair on fire every payday?

It is only gamers (tabletop or controller) who are this god damn sensitive about others being good at what they do! Don't they realize nature rewards specialization over generalization? If this were World of Darkness, I'd swear each and every single troleplayer has the Envy vice. And that, I believe, is the root of the issue. They feel entitled to be casual about their gaming and still be as good as those who play to be good (and pull auto-fellating bullshit out their ass like "well I'M having fun and THEY'RE NOT!!!") and when they aren't, they piss and moan and try to flip the chessboard over so no one can win.

So fucking what if some people are better than you? Everyone is one-upped by someone else! If you happen to be playing with one, step it the fuck up! Quit crying like a little bitch at your DM to punish the kid who turns in his exam before everybody else! Where in the holy fuck do people get this assburger idea that we must hammer down the tallest nail?

Every one of them likes to sob about others lording themselves over themselves. That's all in your head, fella. And if he really IS a prick, break his nose! And besides, how many of these pricks actually exist? Or are troleplayers vastly inflating these numbers to try and make it seem like a much bigger problem than it really is, if even the problem exists at all. It's no different than people bitching about "black metal elitists" without ever citing one, single, actual example -- and if they can find any, the real case is that guy is fed up and responding with, "God damn it quit shitting on me just because I don't listen to lady gaga! You think what I like sucks, I think what you like sucks, suck it up and leave me alone!".

The one final point that troleplayers never consider is... how is it affecting them at all? Are there TO hit-squads kicking in their doors and shouting "PLAY OUR WAY OR DIE, FUCKERS!!" It might bother you that you're not "l33t", but instead of dealing with it, they crawl out of the woodwork and spew their anti-intellectual ideology that those who like to play with numbers, strategize, and get a thrill from rolling the dice are somehow horrible, rotten individuals.

Some people, for some reason, don't like bumbling around and throwing fireballs at fire giants. Fancy that. Some people like 3 over 1, or 25 over 17, or 9001 over 500. Wow, we better crucify this evil, blasphemous number-cruncher immediately. How DARE he not indulge in pretending to be an elf full of angst and mary-sue like a real roleplayer!?

No, I'm not saying that optimizers > non-optimizers. I'm just responding to the made-up resentment of non-optimizers who communally beat on the strawman of the optimizer who believes his dick is bigger than theirs. Yeah he might get boastful in his little corner, but so what? Why isn't he allowed to be pleased with himself for succeeding where he worked to be successful? If it bothers you so much, pull your nose out of his corner and stick it back in yours. Jesus titty cinnamon are people retarded.

Gamers aren't the only ones with this attitude -- but as mentioned above they seem to be the most violently vocal about it -- and it is Really. Fucking. Grating. To hear this shit over and over and fucking over, no matter where I fucking go they shove it in my face that trying to strategize and optimize (whether they're discussing games, a healthy diet, or even careers) is BAD. It's like they believe in equality so hard that anyone who is an inch taller or shorter than some arbitrary measurement need be executed.

I wish we lived in a time when, instead of the vast majority jealously tearing down anyone who stands rather than sits, people were allowed to be awesome. Isn't that the kind of person we're supposed to admire, to look up to, to make heroes out of? Is Lovecraft a bastard because his writing makes 90% of writers' balls shrivel? Is Michelangelo evil because of painting the Sistine Chapel so masterfully? Is that corporate CEO who was born in the ghetto but stayed in school and worked his way up the corporate ladder and is now making more money in a day than most of us do in a year deserving of scorn?

Y'know, maybe this mass refusal to celebrate success rather than apathetic failure and laziness is a huge factor in many, many of our problems as a society.

[Rejakor]

Truth

+1

[Bauglir]

Yeah, except it's a game and not a job. So if the work isn't fun for somebody else, then it kind of defeats the purpose. Don't get me wrong, I am annoyed by "I'm a roleplayer not a rollplayer" too, but I think if somebody's not having fun with the game they're in, they've got a legitimate reason to leave it. I don't think somebody's a worse person for not getting 100% completion in Arkham Asylum, either.

[Sunic_Flames]

...Dude. Holy shit, that was awesome. I take back almost everything bad I said about you when you were trolling me.

And on a related note to that bit of Epic Fucking Win, what's with the mouth breathing fuckwits that seem to think that rules are just suggestions (because they suck too badly to adhere to them) and get super bitchy and Ferrous Cranus like when you tell them that they are expected to uphold some fucking standards because regardless of if they like it or not D&D has set, and strict standards as to what does and does not amount to level appropriateness? Yeah, we get it. Some people suck at the game. But instead of stepping it the fuck up, or even whining at the other players for being better than them they seem to think that it's the DM's fault, for being out to get them, or throwing an unreasonable encounter at them (which would be perfectly fucking reasonable if they were NOT A FUCKING GIMP) because as we all know, it's easier for the DM to coddle the fucking party on top of running THE ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME than for the players to get their shit together once and stop fucking failing.

Here's an example:

Now that's just a gross misrepresentation of our argument, on the level of us accusing you of running games where only Pun-Pun is level appropriate.

The argument is not that the DM isn't allowed to kill anyone ever. That's not the point. The point is that the DM shouldn't put characters into impossible situations. Especially if there only in an impossible situation just because they don't quite meet your standards. The point is to provide a challenge, and what qualifies as a challenge is just as variable as the power level of the players. You refuse to acknowledge that people can and do play lower powered D&D games, and that's why we've been trying to argue with you.

Also, it's ironic that you characterize our arguments as saying the exact same thing over and over, because that's exactly what you've been doing for five pages. Is it only bad when someone else does it?

As to the OP issue, we have given him advice in the framework of his question and the information given. This is just a secondary argument that has grown out of your erroneous belief that there's a single minimum level of competence required by D&D.

Because as we all know, when someone asks for precise responses to the question of what constitutes level appropriateness, what they really want to hear is HURR DURR FAIL AS HARD AS YOU WANT IT DOESN'T MATTER THE DM WILL CODDLE YOU SAFELY.

[dark_samuari]

No, I'm not saying that optimizers > non-optimizers. I'm just responding to the made-up resentment of non-optimizers who communally beat on the strawman of the optimizer who believes his dick is bigger than theirs. Yeah he might get boastful in his little corner, but so what? Why isn't he allowed to be pleased with himself for succeeding where he worked to be successful? If it bothers you so much, pull your nose out of his corner and stick it back in yours. Jesus titty cinnamon are people retarded.

I think perhaps a problem comes from a player grabbing at too much of the pie. That is to say I believe in optimization from a thematic and flavor perspective, I have too. When I create a dragon slayer he had better be able to slay a dragon, so optimization is a necessity in working with the limits of the character. It is rooted here where optimization can spiral out of control and a hate towards it can be born.

I am regarded within the geek community of my university to be the best optimizer at D&D 3.5, to the point where I have had players regularly come to me for advice on tournament characters. With that said I have heard most of them comment how they hate higher-level optimization. A disclaimer has to be made that most gamers at my school are awful at optimizing their characters, it is gloomy to me. Alertness as your first level feat, oh sweet lordy... So they have a bias ingrained in that any solid optimization is going to overshadow them in some light, this bias is wrong but we have to establish it is there.

But this problem is a two-way street. From what I have observed most people hate higher-level optimization because the optimizer doesn't know limits within a communal setting. When an optimizer establishes that their character can do everything better than anyone in the party they have set themselves without limits. Choosing a thematic focus would severely help this out but rarely is this chosen. Instead of playing a frost mage who is the bad-ass with all ice/cold things related (and thus has chosen an area to let themselves shine), the optimizer will choose to just be a powerful mage. No limits applied when your character is built around attaining power (by the way, this is a lazy character design...) and thus they have no discipline in the application of their abilities.

Now all of this isn't defending the idea that a dm should handicap an optimizer who is overshadowing the party, but the issue should be address. After all this is a game and no average joe wants to play a casual game of baseball with Randy Johnson. The optimizer should look inwards and, through understanding of their knowledge & skill towards the game, adjust it to those he would play with. The optimizer should act as a leader at the table. You can win the game, you already know this so why is it so important for you to flaunt it above those who may not be to your level of expertise?       

[Havok4]

The issue you describe about being a good optimizer in a non optimized game is something to consider. The response I think works best is to play a buffer type character so you bring the rest of the party up instead of overshadowing them. Then you can still challenge yourself without making the party feel irrelevant.

[Lycanthromancer]

The issue you describe about being a good optimizer in a non optimized game is something to consider. The response I think works best is to play a buffer type character so you bring the rest of the party up instead of overshadowing them. Then you can still challenge yourself without making the party feel irrelevant.

Or you could make a character and play it to the level of the game. A regular joe-shmoe wizard can easily use his spells to best advantage, but keep his uber combos in reserve for when they're seriously needed to save the party's bacon.

No using telekinesis on those boxes of shrink item'd boulders unless you're going up against that level 60 demigod the DM just threw at you at level 16 (and yes, I had this happen once).

As great of an optimizer and rulesbender as I can be, I try to optimize a character toward a specific job, and make myself capable of being competent outside that purview (but not as good as someone who specializes in those things, assuming they have any idea of what numbers actually mean; if they can't tell that 2+2 is better than 1+1, I'm not responsible for what happens then...there's just no helping some people).

...Was I actually going somewhere with this post?

[bearchucks]

Dark Samurai has a good point.  Thematics are a solid limitation.  Ghost/Master of the Unseen Hand has telekinesis.  Which can absolutely shatter a number of encounters.  But it can't tell you why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

This is why when going into a new group at a new community of gamers, I played a Bard.  Something innocuous, something that says "I'm not out to shatter your game."  And then I pushed the envelope far as I reasonably could.  End result?  A party that can absolutely slaughter things playing the characters that they wanted.  Twinking, min-maxing, optimizing...these are not bad things.  They're tools to an end.  (I know we know this, but this is kinda the manifesto I operate on if people ask why or how a level 9 bard can grant +6d6 fire damage to all weapon attacks).

Ninja'd by Havok on the optimized buffer being good for a nonoptimized game.  The bard, for example.  Inspire Courage is a very team-happy ability.

[LordBlades]

The issue you describe about being a good optimizer in a non optimized game is something to consider. The response I think works best is to play a buffer type character so you bring the rest of the party up instead of overshadowing them. Then you can still challenge yourself without making the party feel irrelevant.

This is IMHO where the gentleman's agreement should come in. You can have a very cool game with a cleric, druid, wizard, psion party fighting challenging encounters for your power level and you can have fun in a fighter ranger monk rogue party, fighting challenging encounters for your power level.

The problems usually appear when you're trying to put 2 chars from the opposite end of the power spectrum in the same party.

[Gods_Trick]

  I've pretty much stripped Tier 1s and 5s from the game. I hate censorship and GM fiat, but its better this than try to adjudicate the effectiveness difference between the artificer and truenamer. I dislike giving out custom items to bridge that, its almost like, you're a special child, so you get to win by just showing up.

[LordBlades]

  I've pretty much stripped Tier 1s and 5s from the game. I hate censorship and GM fiat, but its better this than try to adjudicate the effectiveness difference between the artificer and truenamer. I dislike giving out custom items to bridge that, its almost like, you're a special child, so you get to win by just showing up.

What works in our group is decide what power level are we aiming for in the campaign, and try to make chars no more than 1 tier above or below the line.

[Kajhera]

Tis a reasonable solution though we've had plenty of fun with a Tier 1 and a Tier 6 in the same campaign. I think it's just my DM is that good though.

[lans]

How do Incarnates and Totemists fit into this? They seem to fall more in line with fighters in that they are fairly linear and most of there abilities tend to be low key, than ToB and casters. Despite this they tend to be put in the T3-4 range.

[archangel.arcanis]

How do Incarnates and Totemists fit into this? They seem to fall more in line with fighters in that they are fairly linear and most of there abilities tend to be low key, than ToB and casters. Despite this they tend to be put in the T3-4 range.

Incarnates and Totemists fall into the middle area with ToB characters. They aren't as powerful and diverse as casters but still have some tricks and choices. Where as fighters must devote themselves completely to get one trick and has no real choice if it doesn't work.

[snakeman830]

That and Incarnates/Totemists/Binders can change thier tricks daily if things weren't working out.

[veekie]

At its core, Incarnum is basically additional equipment you can switch around without a shop. Given how significant magic items are, this is a Good Thing_TM

[PhaedrusXY]

I rolled a wizard and some other dude rolled a ranger. After one encounter where the enemy support was puking their guts out in Stinking Cloud, enemy melee was stuck in Evard's Black Tentacles and most of them were also slowed, the ranger player went like (see, told you rangers are good? your wizard didn't kill a single one of them).

That might actually be the most mutually happy ways to do it. Ignorance is bliss for melee.

[Akalsaris]

I rolled a wizard and some other dude rolled a ranger. After one encounter where the enemy support was puking their guts out in Stinking Cloud, enemy melee was stuck in Evard's Black Tentacles and most of them were also slowed, the ranger player went like (see, told you rangers are good? your wizard didn't kill a single one of them).

That might actually be the most mutually happy ways to do it. Ignorance is bliss for melee.

Yeah, that post made me happy too.

[Runestar]

Boy, that brings back memories of treantmonk's god wizard thread.