Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well

[Endarire]

Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well

Prompted By This Thread
What does it take to be effective in melee?

The Essay
   Casters start out with small periods when they can unleash their big trick.  Being so powerful, it is limited in its daily uses.  Casters start off spiky.  Eventually, they gain enough spell slots so they risk running out of HP before they run out of spells.  I speak from experience when I say that casters eventually become smooth in a good way.

   Fighters generally get smaller tricks, but can use them all day.  Fighters start smooth and, short of something like martial maneuvers, end smooth.  Unfortunately, by the default rules, they’re stuck trying to do tricks a normal person could do when the group has upgraded to being superheroes or has entered the Matrix.

   Martial adepts (Tome of Battle base classes) are a mix of casters and Fighters.  They get the staying power of Fighters because they can do their things effectively all day, but their best maneuvers can't be used every round.  It's this spikiness which keeps up their effectiveness, since they can usually go all out in each fight.  Even then, they lack the versatility of casters since level 9 maneuvers are about equal in power to level 6 spells.

   Logically, when the casters are low on spells, and especially if the group expects random encounters, the group will stop so casters can recover spells.  At higher levels, parties are expected to rest before casters are out of spells just so the group can recover HP and undo status ailments.

   If casters are effectively ornate utility belts with attached Pouches of Holding that have room for most everything they expect to need and then some, non-casters and Fighters especially are like cord belts.  Sure, they'll keep you from being totally exposed, but they're easily replaceable if you know how to find them.  Martial adepts are like well-made utility belts with room for a small number of frequently useful tools, even if they lack room for the fanciest things.

[weenog]

Isn't this just a fancy way of saying that a mediocre character is always at their best, and that D&D does not reward mediocrity?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Or that peak power is the only relevant measurement?

[Runestar]

I would argue that martial adepts fare relatively well compared to fighters because their maneuvers allow them to overcome critical weaknesses which have been plaguing melee since day 1. And they are fun to play. 

[Waazraath]

Seriously, if you're in a game that only rewards peak power, you're in imho in a game with a sloppy DM. Actually, this is the perspecive I miss most often in all the 'omg casters are so uber' discussions. Casters need to manage their rescources carefully, definitely at the lower levels, but even on mid- to high (5-15) levels you should be able to challenge your casters in this way as a DM.

If you don't, the game gets boring quite fast: playing a caster gets more boring without the dimension that you actually need to THINK wether it's a good idea to throw out your most powerful spell, and if you run a game where casters can nova every encounter and then take a good night sleep, the game gets really boring for the non-casters.

But if you run a game where it's not possible to rest whenever the party wishes, if you go through a lot of encounters, of if you go through the days when players don't have a clue about how many encounters they get, the perspective changes. Casters need to spent spells & spellslots a lot more careful, also their most powerful ones. And there are a lot of ways to do it... ambush a party after they decided they needed to 'rest', give them quests under heavy time pressure (works up to the point they can planeshift to a timeless realm), have them being hunted down, let them guide a convoy, have a battlefield encounter where they can't simply walk away, like a siege or a big battle on a field, send 'em in a dungeon that actually changes if some people walk in, kill stuff, and walk out again only to come back the other day (preferably "changes" by setting the mother of all ambushes to deteriorate this kind of behaviour - also makes sense from RP perspective).... whatever. 

Personally, I think it was possible to balance the game quite easily this way without ToB. ToB (but also other, later splatbooks that included classes that could do their trick all day, but was better then the average beatstick like binders and warlocks) complicates matters there, since they can go on the entire day, but are quite a lot more powerful then normal fighters, barbarians, etc. Balancing stuff between 'oldschool'  melee classes and the more newschool melee ToB stuff is at least as difficult as balancing casters / noncasters. If I have as a DM a party consisting of a fighter and a wizard, I can plan a lot of encounters as DM in which the wizards solves some of them and the fighter the rest (due to the restriction on rescources/spells for the wizard). If I have to DM a fighter and a warblade.... eh....  I can either help the fighter player to optimize, or I can watch him cry.

[LordBlades]

Personally, I think it was possible to balance the game quite easily this way without ToB. ToB (but also other, later splatbooks that included classes that could do their trick all day, but was better then the average beatstick like binders and warlocks) complicates matters there, since they can go on the entire day, but are quite a lot more powerful then normal fighters, barbarians, etc. Balancing stuff between 'oldschool'  melee classes and the more newschool melee ToB stuff is at least as difficult as balancing casters / noncasters. If I have as a DM a party consisting of a fighter and a wizard, I can plan a lot of encounters as DM in which the wizards solves some of them and the fighter the rest (due to the restriction on rescources/spells for the wizard). If I have to DM a fighter and a warblade.... eh....  I can either help the fighter player to optimize, or I can watch him cry.

Sadly, this kind of approach only works up to a certain level IMHO. Past that, most casters(especially focused specialist wizards) have so many spell slots that they can easily solve 3-4 encounter on their own, and still have stuff left to contribute to 2-3 more encounters.

[Sunic_Flames]

Novaing is a straw man anyways. Casters solve encounters in one spell. Not even necessarily one spell per caster. One spell. How many do they have again? Hint: It's more than 1, and unless discussing level 1 or 2 it's likely more than 4, too.

You fight 4 times a day, and you still have plenty of spells left. And you could actually keep going if you want, but most people will call it just in case.

And amusingly enough, it's most often the beatstick who calls for a rest. Why? Well, guess what's keeping him healed, and curing status effects, and getting him through the dungeon with everyone else? Spells.

[Waazraath]

"you fight 4 times/day" - no, you do not. At least not if you have a party consiting of both casters and non-casters, because of you do, the DM isn't doing it's job.

"casters solve encounters in one spell" - no, they don't, not if your DM went through the trouble of building a decent encounter.

"it's most often the beatstick who calls for a rest" - well, in your games maybe, I wouldn't know... in the ones I play it's about even, cause intelligent monsters try to attack the casters first.

[weenog]

I'm wondering where the hell you got the idea that the average beatstick can last longer than the average spellcaster.  When the average spellcaster runs out of his highest levels of spells, he's still got quite a few lower level spells to rely on, and possibly lingering effects of higher level spells with long durations.  When the average beatstick runs out of hp, he needs a few thousand gp worth of diamonds and a favor from the cleric... that, or a headstone.

And unlike the average spellcaster, the average beatstick's hp aren't hard to reach and reduce in the first place.

Are you considering something insanely tough (and illegal) like a feral mineral warrior warforged barbarian/fighter/warforged juggernaut with Troll Blooded to be the average beatstick, and something idiotic like a warmage with Versatile Spellcaster who blows his load faster than a virgin getting his first handy to be the average spellcaster, by any chance?

[Waazraath]

I'm wondering where the hell you got the idea that the average beatstick can last longer than the average spellcaster. 

That's not what I said. What I said was that based on my experiences, casters and non-casters call for a rest is about 50-50. And no, I didn't kept statistics, but casters need to worry about both status effects/hp damage and not having spells anymore, while non-casters only need to worry about the first 2 (only a bit more).

Where I got my ideas? Playing Dungeons and Dragons of course! Was that a trick question?

[Waazraath]

Sadly, this kind of approach only works up to a certain level IMHO. Past that, most casters(especially focused specialist wizards) have so many spell slots that they can easily solve 3-4 encounter on their own, and still have stuff left to contribute to 2-3 more encounters.

Just curious, at which point/level does this stop working in your experience?

[LordBlades]

"you fight 4 times/day" - no, you do not. At least not if you have a party consiting of both casters and non-casters, because of you do, the DM isn't doing it's job.

Lvl 8 focused specialist wizard with 22 int (18 starting +2 lvl+2 headband has) 4/8/7/6/5 spells. Excluding cantrips and 1st level spells, that's still 18 spells he can cast. Even at 3 spells per combat(that's a bit much for the average combat in my opinion), he can keep going for 6 encounters. And can annoy enemies with grease for 2-3 more encoutners after that too.  So you're looking at 9-10 encounters to leave the caster without any kind of resources.

"casters solve encounters in one spell" - no, they don't, not if your DM went through the trouble of building a decent encounter. .

There is little that can counter clever battlefield control apart from employing your own battlefiled control. And requiring every encounter to be made up of casters kind of narrows down the possible encounters quite a bit, and makes the game somewhat repetitive.

"it's most often the beatstick who calls for a rest" - well, in your games maybe, I wouldn't know... in the ones I play it's about even, cause intelligent monsters try to attack the casters first. .

Once again, it's pretty hard for a non-caster to penetrate the defenses of a clever caster, which again leads to the 'all encounters need casters' problem.

[LordBlades]

Sadly, this kind of approach only works up to a certain level IMHO. Past that, most casters(especially focused specialist wizards) have so many spell slots that they can easily solve 3-4 encounter on their own, and still have stuff left to contribute to 2-3 more encounters.

Just curious, at which point/level does this stop working in your experience?

Around lvl 6-7 mainly. It's the point where you start having enough slots as a wizard, or alternate ways to contribute that use few spells(buff+melee) as a cleric and druid.

[weenog]

I'm wondering where the hell you got the idea that the average beatstick can last longer than the average spellcaster.  

That's not what I said.

But if you run a game where it's not possible to rest whenever the party wishes, if you go through a lot of encounters, of if you go through the days when players don't have a clue about how many encounters they get, the perspective changes. Casters need to spent spells & spellslots a lot more careful, also their most powerful ones. And there are a lot of ways to do it... ambush a party after they decided they needed to 'rest', give them quests under heavy time pressure (works up to the point they can planeshift to a timeless realm), have them being hunted down, let them guide a convoy, have a battlefield encounter where they can't simply walk away, like a siege or a big battle on a field, send 'em in a dungeon that actually changes if some people walk in, kill stuff, and walk out again only to come back the other day (preferably "changes" by setting the mother of all ambushes to deteriorate this kind of behaviour - also makes sense from RP perspective).... whatever.

You devoted this wall of text to different ways of suggesting that you can make the beatsticks catch up with the casters if you force the party into tests of endurance.  You may not have said the average beatstick can outlast the average spellcaster, but you implied it repeatedly.

[Waazraath]

"Around lvl 6-7 mainly. It's the point where you start having enough slots as a wizard, or alternate ways to contribute that use few spells(buff+melee) as a cleric and druid."
- druid: fair enough, won't say anything there if only for the wildshape and animal companion
- cleric: no, seriously no. level 6-7 clerics don't hold up to the average warblade, barbarian or paladin as a melee combatant. Either they need some rounds to buff, or they have spent all their feats on DMM - persist to get divine power (their highest level spell) up.
- wizard: maybe... but without going the focussed specialist route rescources are much less (and even though good, in my experience most casters aren't focuessed specialists)

As for your other points:
- battlefield control is good, but it doesn't 'resolve' an encounter (or at least, shouldn't as far as I'm concerned, only rarely) ; also, as a DM you can use any battlefield you want, you choose the terrain (unless the party does something clever, but in general, you do) - you can already use terrain that's to your advantage, having the caster to use bf-control just to even the odds. Also logical from a roleplay perspective on many occasions that the monster lives in it's favoured terrain.
- as for penetrating caster defenses: it depends on the situation. Of course, if the party has time to prepare, wizard has displacement, mirror image, whatever on, you'll have a hard time damaging him. But if the party isn't prepared, especialy the wizard is a juicy target. Having him taking some ranged attacks (for example) forces the wizard to make a choice: bf-controll or save or die, or maybe first cast some spells for protection?
- as for the level 8 focussed specialist you mention: first, it's a focussed specialist (see above), second: some of those spells will be self protection, or divination, or whatever. Not likely it will all be encounter ending glitterdusts, black tentacles or the like (which, I should mention, do have a chance of not working).

[weenog]

Oh come on now.  Even my group is aware of immediate-action cast options like Greater Mirror Image, and my group is full of dumbasses that think I'm an optimization god because I'm that much better at it than they are (not even, more like vaguely competent if I've got time to think about it).

Do you really believe a wizard is so easily taken apart or surprised, or are you just trolling?

[Sunic_Flames]

Sigh.

"you fight 4 times/day" - no, you do not. At least not if you have a party consiting of both casters and non-casters, because of you do, the DM isn't doing it's job.

Way to miss the point. The point is you can easily do more.

"casters solve encounters in one spell" - no, they don't, not if your DM went through the trouble of building a decent encounter.

Hi Welcome

Save or lose, bitch.

"it's most often the beatstick who calls for a rest" - well, in your games maybe, I wouldn't know... in the ones I play it's about even, cause intelligent monsters try to attack the casters first.

Doesn't change the fact the beatstick's HP are gone in 1-2 rounds at every single level, while even a 1st level Wizard has 3 Color Sprays.

Also, every encounter starting at level 10 is on a flat, featureless plain regardless of what the terrain actually is.

[Littha]

"casters solve encounters in one spell" - no, they don't, not if your DM went through the trouble of building a decent encounter.

Your major problem here is that any encounter that will take a caster more than 1 or 2 spells to beat will completely tenderize your melee characters.

[BruceLeeroy]

Casters solve encounters in one spell. Not even necessarily one spell per caster. One spell. How many do they have again? Hint: It's more than 1, and unless discussing level 1 or 2 it's likely more than 4, too.

Even if the caster uses Web or Solid Fog or Evard's Black Tentacles, or whatever wonder spell you're thinking of when you make such a statement, it shouldn't end the encounter. Make it manageable, sure. Win it? Only if the DM is an idiot. There are so many tactics that can force a caster to use multiple spells per encounter, and don't necessarily mean it's an overwhelming encounter.

Plus, buffs? Defense? Mage Armor/Shield/Mirror Image/Invisibility/Alter Self/Fly, etc. You know, all the reasons that casters win? Yea, they have to spend (mostly short duration, and persist techniques aren't that common) spell slots on that.

"casters solve encounters in one spell" - no, they don't, not if your DM went through the trouble of building a decent encounter.

Your major problem here is that any encounter that will take a caster more than 1 or 2 spells to beat will completely tenderize your melee characters.

Not necessarily true. Unless you don't spend spell slots until your melee allies are getting bumraped.

[LordBlades]

"Around lvl 6-7 mainly. It's the point where you start having enough slots as a wizard, or alternate ways to contribute that use few spells(buff+melee) as a cleric and druid."
- druid: fair enough, won't say anything there if only for the wildshape and animal companion
- cleric: no, seriously no. level 6-7 clerics don't hold up to the average warblade, barbarian or paladin as a melee combatant. Either they need some rounds to buff, or they have spent all their feats on DMM - persist to get divine power (their highest level spell) up.
- wizard: maybe... but without going the focussed specialist route rescources are much less (and even though good, in my experience most casters aren't focuessed specialists)

Clerics: Most melee clerics that I've seen have either melee feats (you can have power attack, leap attack, imp bull rush and shock trooper by lvl 6 if human) or DMM: Persist feats. In any case, they provide more than a run for their money to fighters, barbs and paladins. ToB classes require a bit more effort though.

Also, past a certain level of optimziation, people realize that eveocation is pretty useless, and so is enchantment if you're not ofcusing on it. From here to Focused Specialist is only a small step. 4/5 straight wizards in the group I play in are focused specialists.

As for your other points:
- battlefield control is good, but it doesn't 'resolve' an encounter (or at least, shouldn't as far as I'm concerned, only rarely) ; also, as a DM you can use any battlefield you want, you choose the terrain (unless the party does something clever, but in general, you do) - you can already use terrain that's to your advantage, having the caster to use bf-control just to even the odds. Also logical from a roleplay perspective on many occasions that the monster lives in it's favoured terrain.
- as for penetrating caster defenses: it depends on the situation. Of course, if the party has time to prepare, wizard has displacement, mirror image, whatever on, you'll have a hard time damaging him. But if the party isn't prepared, especialy the wizard is a juicy target. Having him taking some ranged attacks (for example) forces the wizard to make a choice: bf-controll or save or die, or maybe first cast some spells for protection?
- as for the level 8 focussed specialist you mention: first, it's a focussed specialist (see above), second: some of those spells will be self protection, or divination, or whatever. Not likely it will all be encounter ending glitterdusts, black tentacles or the like (which, I should mention, do have a chance of not working).

Good battlefield control does. Or at least makes the encounter trivial.
Melee brute with low will save? Blind him with glitterdust.
Ranged attcker/caster? Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Sand or Stinking Cloud.
Need to take somebody out of combat until you finish off his friends? Solid Fog/Wall of Whatever(add a dimensional anchor if you suspect teleportation and a cloudkill for some free debuffing).