Level adjustment as XP cost

[Emo_Duck]

One of the main disadvantages of the LA system is how the abilities of a template or exotic race rarely scale with level, and thus end up costing more than they're worth due to the non-linear XP progression for each level. So then came measures to mitigate it, like LA buy-off. The Necropolitan ritual/template doesn't even impose a level adjustment, but acts much like one in that the character will be behind in actual HD and levels. So I got to thinking that maybe that's how 'level adjustment' should be handled - an XP cost instead of an adjustment that, in effect, becomes more expensive the more levels a character earns.

Has this been discussed before? Would it be sensible to make +1 LA templates cost 1,000 XP. make +2 LA cost 4,000 XP, etc.? Perhaps it goes too far toward mitigating costs in the long run, though typically it's the higher-LA choices that people feel need a reduction.

[archangel.arcanis]

How would you deal with issues such as people playing a character that is of a level adjusted race? Tiefling for example is +1LA but not racial HD and you can't exactly slap it on someone after they have adventured enough for 1000xp.

Essentially your xp cost is the same as buy off unless you are going to allow people to start with negative xp and just climb out of the hole as they adventure.

[Emo_Duck]

How would you deal with issues such as people playing a character that is of a level adjusted race? Tiefling for example is +1LA but not racial HD and you can't exactly slap it on someone after they have adventured enough for 1000xp.

Essentially your xp cost is the same as buy off unless you are going to allow people to start with negative xp and just climb out of the hole as they adventure.

I guess I'd have to refer to and fiddle with monstrous progression classes. Or just not allow a normally level-adjusted character if playing at a level that wouldn't accomodate it in the first place.

[pixledriven]

Wasn't the original intent of level adjustment for you to go up X number of levels on the XP chart, and then figure how much you need to gain to advance from there?

Sure your companions w/out LA will pass you in levels, but you don't miss out on anything then - since you're eventually gain it.

[archangel.arcanis]

Wasn't the original intent of level adjustment for you to go up X number of levels on the XP chart, and then figure how much you need to gain to advance from there?

Sure your companions w/out LA will pass you in levels, but you don't miss out on anything then - since you're eventually gain it.

almost. It was what they thought the cost of the monster's abilities should make you equal to. The problem is that the abilities are rather static and their usefulness tends to go down each time someone levels. So you character with a +3 template is making the DM shit himself the first few levels, but after a little while of not leveling your powers a meaningless compared to what people without LA can do thanks to having more class levels.

[SiggyDevil]

You're better off with racial classes/progressions that use monster HD and provide the same template benefits over a slightly longer course of levels.

[RobbyPants]

How would you deal with issues such as people playing a character that is of a level adjusted race? Tiefling for example is +1LA but not racial HD and you can't exactly slap it on someone after they have adventured enough for 1000xp.

Essentially your xp cost is the same as buy off unless you are going to allow people to start with negative xp and just climb out of the hole as they adventure.

It's kind of like buy-off.  The difference is that you don't have to start at arbitrarily high levels to buy off.

Still, the idea helps some, but it still has some basic problems from first principles.  This is basically the "you suck now, but you'll be awesome later" approach.  The two big problems with that are:

1) If the game is only low level, you never do this, and if the game is high level, you always do this, because there's no cost.

2) It "averages out", sort of, but basically in that you play a sucky character for a while, then you later play an awesome character.


A better (albeit more time-intensive) approach would be to rewrite all of the LA races to be worth their LA.  I like the basic approach that Frank and K took in Races of War, but this is still pretty crude, and would only work if tweaked on an individual basis (basically, their "method 3".  Spoliered for longness:

Converting Monsters Into Characters:

Method 1:  The Easy Way
Assume that a monster is a character of its CR+1(modified if it i a monster with the [Awesome] tag), and that its stat modifiers are derived from the assumption that the base monster was built using the Elite Array (highest monster stat – highest elite stat, then repeat for next lowest, etc). For level-dependant effects like skill point maxes, feat prereqs, etc, use the monster’s CR+1.  Round ability stat mods down to nearest multiple of 2(negative mods up to multiple of 2), and CRs down to nearest whole number.

The nice part of this method is that it is easy, fast, and you can get to playing a monster immediately without as lot of DM intervention or paperwork.  The downside is that you might get an underpowered or overpowered monster character if you are not careful (like you forgot that Dragons are actually CRed two less than they should be, or that Sprites are unplayable).

Here’s two examples:
•Minotaur.  Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC.  Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD.
Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at.
•Succubus:  CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex.
It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay.  The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes.

Method 2:

This method is the same as Method 1, but it goes a bit further by converting HD to actually appropriate HD by giving the monster the HD that equals its CR and BAB.  This corrects problems just as excess HD from giants and undead.

Basically, look that the monster’s HD and BAB. What kind of HD would it need to keep about the same BAB and HPs, but would give it the appropriate number of HD to fit its CR/level (which also fixes Saves to reasonably levels).  Assign it that HD, and move on with your life.

Here’s an example:

Fire Giant.  Ok, the Fire Giant is a CR 11 as a PC, and notice that it has a BAB of 11, Great!  Normally, it has 15 HD which leads to some craziness if he ever gets a Con boost and it has saves that are a little too big, so lets convert it.  Lets give it 11 Barbarian HD(d12s, +1 BAB, good Fort save).  We see that he keeps his BAB of 11, his HPs change from 142 to 133, and its base saves are  Fort +7, Will/Ref +3 like an actual 11th level character instead of Fort +9, Will/Ref +5.

Method 3:
This Method is being saved for our upcoming Tome of Tiamat.  Lets just say that is the version of monster progression classes that you actually wanted to be written.

Here are some relatively simple character conversions:
Gnoll (Minimum Level 2)[/size]
Lazy Hyena men filled with awesome? Where do I sign!?

• Medium Size
• 30' movement
• Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype)
• Darkvision 60'
• +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
• Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar.
• +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes.
• Scent.
• +1 Natural Armor.
• Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid
• Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common
• Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg.
• 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB)

Bugbear (Minimum Level 3)[/size]

• Medium Size
• 30' movement
• Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype)
• Darkvision 60'
• +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma
• Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons.
• +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes.
• +3 Natural Armor.
• +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
• Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja
• Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common
• Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon.
• 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB)

Ogre (Minimum Level 4)[/size]
Giants, even the lowly Ogre, are very specialized creatures. They dominate melee at their level, and really suck at everything else. As monsters, that makes them dangerous. While their glass jaws often leave them in situations that they cannot survive or even put up a decent showing, their laser-like focus can allow them to brutalize characters higher level than themselves if the lighting is just right. As characters, though, this makes them somewhat underwhelming. The ability to win super hard in one encounter only to die horribly in the next is worth less than nothing in a campaign game. An Ogre is a vulnerable and weak character for his level, but he does shine brightly if he can sucker opponents into melee. As such, Ogres really only do well in large, highly varied parties. As long as the remaining characters have potential bases covered extremely well, the fact that a single Ogre can't always pull his weight won't matter as much. For this reason, an Ogre often makes a better cohort than he does a primary character.

• Large Size
• 40' movement
• Giant Type (Cold subtype)
• Low-light vision and Darkvision (60')
• +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
• +5 Natural Armor
• Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Simple Weapons.
• Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger
• Automatic Languages: Giant, Common
• Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarvish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Terran.
• 4 Starting Hit Dice (4d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 7 skill points; +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; +4 BAB)

Frost Giant (Minimum Level 10)[/size]

Right out of the box, the Frost Giant is a bad dude capable of rescuing the head of state from ninjas. Based largely on Norse mythology, these bad boys are big and bad. In fact, at 15 feet tall, they are about as big as you can get and still count as a large creature. That makes it pretty hard for them to find mounts, or fit into small buildings, and do all kinds of other crap that adventurers want to do. But it's not impossible. A Frost Giant isn't a Cloud Giant, he doesn't need people to make new doors to accommodate him, he just needs special doors to get through without it being really inconvenient.

A frost giant gets by in human society mostly because most people wouldn't dare mess with him. And that makes for a decent enough 10th level character.

• Large Size
• 40' movement
• Giant Type (Cold subtype)
• Low-light vision
• +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
• +9 Natural Armor
• Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons.
• Rock Throwing and Catching (a Frost Giant's rocks have a range increment of 120 feet).
• Favored Classes: Fighter and Barbarian
• Cold Immunity and Fire Vulnerability
• Automatic Languages: Giant, Common
• Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarvish, Gnoll, Orc.
• 10 Starting Hit Dice (10d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 13 skill points; +7 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will; +10 BAB)

[SiggyDevil]

I thought Method 3 was never written..

[RobbyPants]

I think you're right and that I read that wrong.  I think that those examples are just method 2 in action.  They just happen to be listed below method 3.

[SiggyDevil]

Yes Method 2 does look nice.